Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[Dai Corner]

Was this a point of debate when landlords threated tenants with paying towards the cost of recladding buildings?

That was between freeholders and leaseholders wasn't it? One level up the chain from landlords and tenants.

 

[Herefordian]

Landlords who make improvements can expect to charge a higher rent in future though, or why bother? That's what I thought you meant by 'passing costs on to tenants'

Trouble is, if oil and gas producers can sell their products to other markets at higher prices than Ofgem sets they will, and we won't have any/enough.

Landlords can't increase the rent for existing tenants to specifically cover costs like fitting a new kitchen or insulation.

However I was being more specific and talking about landlords who, hypothetically, had to be mandated to fit insulation to their dwelling(s).

They specifically should be prevented, through regulation, from increasing rents (present and future) to pay for said insulation as a penalty.

EDIT: That's the main issue. We sold off the rights to our fossil fuel reserves. If we hadn't we wouldn't be in this mess.

Was this a point of debate when landlords threated tenants with paying towards the cost of recladding buildings?

It was only with buy-to-let landlords as far as I'm aware.

 

[Cdd89]

Surely the rental market will sort itself out, without any mandating at all.

Obviously the tenants pay the cost of utilities, but which property would you rent: the one that costs £4000 to heat, or the one that costs £1000?

 

[DelayRepay]

Landlords can't increase the rent for existing tenants to specifically cover costs like fitting a new kitchen or insulation.

But they can terminate the tenancy and find someone else who's willing to pay more.

I once lived in a house where the landlord put the rent up when he replaced the boiler. As I was going to benefit through lower bills, and I didn't want to move out, I agreed to the increase. Overall I was still better off because the new Combi boiler was way more efficient than the old back boiler (and the old one kept breaking down, which was why he was replacing it).

 

[JamesT]

Landlords can't increase the rent for existing tenants to specifically cover costs like fitting a new kitchen or insulation.

However I was being more specific and talking about landlords who, hypothetically, had to be mandated to fit insulation to their dwelling(s).

They specifically should be prevented, through regulation, from increasing rents (present and future) to pay for said insulation as a penalty.

Rather than being hypothetical, we could look at the existing scheme where rented properties have to be at least grade E. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domesti...-energy-efficiency-standard-landlord-guidance

The Domestic Minimum Energy Efficiency Standard (MEES) Regulations set a minimum energy efficiency level for domestic private rented properties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than being hypothetical, we could look at the existing scheme where rented properties have to be at least grade E. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domesti...-energy-efficiency-standard-landlord-guidance

Thanks. Just need to bump that up with defined dates for the steps and a scheme to allow it to be done via a charge on the property.

 

[alxndr]

Been looking at where I can save....my late June week's holiday abroad can be moved to late winter, saving £600, my footy club season ticket won't be renewed (£175-ish) and I won't be subbing to Now or Sky sports (£20-34/month) so that's nearly the grand I need to find over the winter.

This is what worries me. My partner and I already live a fairly basic lifestyle. No holidays, no season tickets, no TV/streaming services, we don't eat out. There isn't really anywhere that we can easily cut costs without having a major impact.

I'm considering being that guy who always showers at work and filling a flask at work, but there's honestly not much more I can think of to do aside from getting very, very frugal with food as well, but my partner's restrictive diet makes that difficult.

 

[tomuk]

Thanks. Just need to bump that up with defined dates for the steps and a scheme to allow it to be done via a charge on the property.

From the government page on Domestic Minimum Energy Efficiency Standard :

Setting long-term energy performance standards​

Government has committed to look at a long term trajectory to improve the energy performance standards of privately rented homes in England and Wales, with the aim for as many of them as possible to be upgraded to EPC Band C by 2030, where practical, cost-effective and affordable.

We are exploring policy design options with a view to consultation in due course. We ran a series of regional stakeholder workshops in England and Wales this summer to discuss options.

 

[Busaholic]

I lived in a part of South London that was affected by riots, although not in our immediate residential area. I'd only moved to London from Yorkshire a year earlier, and I remember feeling very scared as I tracked the riots on Twitter with my housemate. Those riots seemed to come from nowhere but the scary thing was the way the police lost control. I was frightened because I knew if anything bad happened the police wouldn't be able to help us.

I grew up in South London and continued to live there until aged 40. On the day in 1977 the 'Brixton Riots' broke out we were living in Lewisham and an apparently drugged driver came racing down our narrow residential road, crashed into a parked car then his car lodged itself into the front of a neighbour's house. A 'Citizen's Arrest' was made on the driver and 999 was rung. I was informed by the police control room that the only available policeman in South London was a carless constable at Sydenham police station, so no police attended. An ambulance had arrived, which treated a minor injury to the driver, then shut him in the back of their vehicle awaiting the police. After about three hours, and a further call to police which was never answered, the ambulancemen reluctantly released the driver, who stumbled off never to be seen again (he refused to identify himself, incidentally) and my neighbour was left to his own devices in sorting everything out.

 

[Howardh]

This is what worries me. My partner and I already live a fairly basic lifestyle. No holidays, no season tickets, no TV/streaming services, we don't eat out. There isn't really anywhere that we can easily cut costs without having a major impact.

I'm considering being that guy who always showers at work and filling a flask at work, but there's honestly not much more I can think of to do aside from getting very, very frugal with food as well, but my partner's restrictive diet makes that difficult.

All I can do is sigh for you and everyone else. As for cheap food, Lidl and Aldi are your friends, is it possible to cook three or four meals in one go, eat one and put the rest in the fridge to heat up the next day? Being single I find I do that normally as tins and packets are for two at least.

I play sports which entitles me to a "free" shower which I now do - used to wait till I got home. You will have explored every option for state help? Hope that things work out, we seriously need community centres to open as warm banks, sell cheap food and hot drinks including soup do people can mingle and keep warm.

This is 2022. Not Victorian England. Wish we could go back 10 years and start again!

 

[najaB]

From the government page on Domestic Minimum Energy Efficiency Standard :

"...with the aim for as many of them as possible to be upgraded to EPC Band C by 2030, where practical, cost-effective and affordable."

Why do I suspect that a lot of landlords are going to find it impractical, not cost effective or unaffordable to perform the needed work.

 

[Herefordian]

But they can terminate the tenancy and find someone else who's willing to pay more.

I once lived in a house where the landlord put the rent up when he replaced the boiler. As I was going to benefit through lower bills, and I didn't want to move out, I agreed to the increase. Overall I was still better off because the new Combi boiler was way more efficient than the old back boiler (and the old one kept breaking down, which was why he was replacing it).

It isn't morally right but by law of course they can.

If your specific case happened on or after June 2019 then the landlord would not have been allowed to increase the rent.

Aside from rent and a deposit landlords can only charge for late rent, lost keys or a change to the tenancy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what worries me. My partner and I already live a fairly basic lifestyle. No holidays, no season tickets, no TV/streaming services, we don't eat out. There isn't really anywhere that we can easily cut costs without having a major impact.

I'm considering being that guy who always showers at work and filling a flask at work, but there's honestly not much more I can think of to do aside from getting very, very frugal with food as well, but my partner's restrictive diet makes that difficult.

Turn down your heating and put on a jumper is the obvious one given that that is the costly thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

Why do I suspect that a lot of landlords are going to find it impractical, not cost effective or unaffordable to perform the needed work.

2030 isn't soon enough. It should be brought back to 2025 or thereabouts, and fully mandatory unless a local authority planning officer independently confirms it is impossible without breaching e.g. a listed building or conservation area covenant.

 

[najaB]

Turn down your heating and put on a jumper is the obvious one given that that is the costly thing.

How low can you turn your heating though?

 

[DelayRepay]

we seriously need community centres to open as warm banks, sell cheap food and hot drinks including soup do people can mingle and keep warm.

When I was growing up in South Yorkshire, we had those for the striking miners and their families. Never thought we'd see those days return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How low can you turn your heating though?

As low as you like! Though below 5 degrees would not be prudent as it might result in burst pipes.

If you get a decent fleece hoodie and thick socks/slippers most people should be able to cope with about 18 degrees.

 

[DelayRepay]

It isn't morally right but by law of course they can.

If your specific case happened on or after June 2019 then the landlord would not have been allowed to increase the rent.

Aside from rent and a deposit landlords can only charge for late rent, lost keys or a change to the tenancy.

I haven't rented since 2018, so am not familiar with the current law, but surely they can review the rent on renewal, which for most of my tenancies happened every six months (renewal, not rent rise).

My sister's rent went up last year 'Because of Covid', and the year before 'Because of Brexit'. Personally I think it was just 'Because of Greedy Landlord' but she accepted the increase as she's got two kids, the house suits them, it's near their school, near my mum, and she didn't want the hassle of moving.

 

[Herefordian]

I haven't rented since 2018, so am not familiar with the current law, but surely they can review the rent on renewal, which for most of my tenancies happened every six months (renewal, not rent rise).

My sister's rent went up last year 'Because of Covid', and the year before 'Because of Brexit'. Personally I think it was just 'Because of Greedy Landlord' but she accepted the increase as she's got two kids, the house suits them, it's near their school, near my mum, and she didn't want the hassle of moving.

Unfortunately landlords can still put the rent up "just because" whenever they want to.

But they can't put it up specifically to cover their costs for a repair (which is not the tenant's fault) or improvements they've chosen to make.

 

[alxndr]

Turn down your heating and put on a jumper is the obvious one given that that is the costly thing.

If you get a decent fleece hoodie and thick socks/slippers most people should be able to cope with about 18 degrees.

My thermostat has never been above 18 degrees in my life. I had so little heating growing up that 18 degrees feels like a luxury, although I'm not keen to go back to wearing a coat to bed.

All I can do is sigh for you and everyone else. As for cheap food, Lidl and Aldi are your friends, is it possible to cook three or four meals in one go, eat one and put the rest in the fridge to heat up the next day? Being single I find I do that normally as tins and packets are for two at least.

Already do this most of the time, although planning to do more of that.

You will have explored every option for state help? Hope that things work out, we seriously need community centres to open as warm banks, sell cheap food and hot drinks including soup do people can mingle and keep warm.

This is 2022. Not Victorian England. Wish we could go back 10 years and start again!

That's the thing, we're not poor enough to qualify for anything. We just both acclimatised to a relatively low cost life through past times of hardship and don't care for the extras some people find worth spending on. Our one "frivolous" expenditure is my partner going to university, leaving me the only breadwinner, and I will go without as much as I can to make that happen. We were comfortable doing this, but the problem is that it leaves little to strip away now that everything is skyrocketing.

It makes me keenly aware that there are many people who have even less to cut back on. It is those that I really fear for.

 

[Trainbike46]

Surely the rental market will sort itself out, without any mandating at all.

Obviously the tenants pay the cost of utilities, but which property would you rent: the one that costs £4000 to heat, or the one that costs £1000?

you assume tenants have a choice in where they live. For a lot of us, we have to take what we can get or risk becoming homeless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

Why do I suspect that a lot of landlords are going to find it impractical, not cost effective or unaffordable to perform the needed work.

That is my main concern with this scheme too: there is exemptions, and a lot of them. It would be much better if those did not exist

 

[tomuk]

Unfortunately landlords can still put the rent up "just because" whenever they want to.

But they can't put it up specifically to cover their costs for a repair (which is not the tenant's fault) or improvements they've chosen to make.

I think you're conflating two separate things rent increases and fees.
The landlord can set the rent to whatever they like either at renewal or within a rent review clause of an ongoing tenacy. The increase could well be for a new boiler, inulation, redecortion or whatever.

What the landlord can't do is add a supplement to rent within the agreed period to cover repairs or improvements eg your monthly rent for 12 months was £450. the landlord can't make it £500 in June to cover the cost of a new boiler.

 

[Herefordian]

I think you're conflating two separate things rent increases and fees.
The landlord can set the rent to whatever they like either at renewal or within a rent review clause of an ongoing tenacy. The increase could well be for a new boiler, inulation, redecortion or whatever.

What the landlord can't do is add a supplement to rent within the agreed period to cover repairs or improvements eg your monthly rent for 12 months was £450. the landlord can't make it £500 in June to cover the cost of a new boiler.

Fair play. Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't help with that particular part of my friend's property business. I've got a fairly good idea of how it works but I've obviously misunderstood/read something along the way.

Apologies for any confusion caused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My thermostat has never been above 18 degrees in my life. I had so little heating growing up that 18 degrees feels like a luxury, although I'm not keen to go back to wearing a coat to bed.

Not sure why you'd want to do that. You just need bedcovers thick enough for the temperature and maybe a hot water bottle. Before mass central heating bedrooms were usually totally unheated other than a small amount of warmth from the smoke going up the chimney.

 

[Howardh]

My thermostat has never been above 18 degrees in my life. I had so little heating growing up that 18 degrees feels like a luxury, although I'm not keen to go back to wearing a coat to bed.

Already do this most of the time, although planning to do more of that.

That's the thing, we're not poor enough to qualify for anything. We just both acclimatised to a relatively low cost life through past times of hardship and don't care for the extras some people find worth spending on. Our one "frivolous" expenditure is my partner going to university, leaving me the only breadwinner, and I will go without as much as I can to make that happen. We were comfortable doing this, but the problem is that it leaves little to strip away now that everything is skyrocketing.

It makes me keenly aware that there are many people who have even less to cut back on. It is those that I really fear for.

At some point the latter will fall below thresholds for assistance, but if they are working and become part-time through no fault, if they don't fall below thresholds then they will start to use up any life savings. This isn't what life savings are for, a better retirement, a decent car, holidays, even university as you allude to....they are not for keeping a one-bar fire on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

Not sure why you'd want to do that. You just need bedcovers thick enough for the temperature and maybe a hot water bottle. Before mass central heating bedrooms were usually totally unheated other than a small amount of warmth from the smoke going up the chimney.

A big plus these days is the duvet. In my kidhood it was blanket on top of blanket, now it's a blanket above a 15-tog duvet. Bliss!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW I hate waking up sweaty so don't normally heat the bedroom at all and tend to leave the window open to prevent damp. If you have a warm quilt it is fine. After all you can get sleeping bags for camping that are comfortable at -20, and unlike a duvet those have to concern themselves with weight too!

 

[philosopher]

Why do I suspect that a lot of landlords are going to find it impractical, not cost effective or unaffordable to perform the needed work.

The problem the UK has is that it has a very high proportion of housing that dates from the 19th century, which are hard to insulate as they do not have wall cavities to fit insulation foam and were designed to be draughty to allow smoke from fireplaces to escape.

People in the UK seem to prefer older homes as they are seen as having more character. So despite them being costly to heat they tend to still be in high demand. It may be that high energy costs mean buyers and renters become more keen on newer properties though.

 

[GS250]

The problem the UK has is that it has a very high proportion of housing that dates from the 19th century, which are hard to insulate as they do not have wall cavities to fit insulation foam and were designed to be draughty to allow smoke from fireplaces to escape.

People in the UK seem to prefer older homes as they are seen as having more character. So despite them being costly to heat they tend to still be in high demand. It may be that high energy costs mean buyers and renters become more keen on newer properties though.

Far better sound insulation and generally much better build quality too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem the UK has is that it has a very high proportion of housing that dates from the 19th century, which are hard to insulate as they do not have wall cavities to fit insulation foam and were designed to be draughty to allow smoke from fireplaces to escape.

People in the UK seem to prefer older homes as they are seen as having more character. So despite them being costly to heat they tend to still be in high demand. It may be that high energy costs mean buyers and renters become more keen on newer properties though.

They are not hard to insulate, though take more thought. Mostly it can be done inside. You do lose a bit of space, though.

 

[tomuk]

The problem the UK has is that it has a very high proportion of housing that dates from the 19th century, which are hard to insulate as they do not have wall cavities to fit insulation foam and were designed to be draughty to allow smoke from fireplaces to escape.

People in the UK seem to prefer older homes as they are seen as having more character. So despite them being costly to heat they tend to still be in high demand. It may be that high energy costs mean buyers and renters become more keen on newer properties though.

The UK is also blighted by 20/21st century homes. Those immediately post war can be terribly built due to shortage its amazing what you can hide behind render. Then you have the various 60s white heat of technology houses, concrete, system builds. To the modern day where builders are throwing up houses built to the lowest possible standards to make greater margins.

 

[Cdd89]

FWIW I hate waking up sweaty so don't normally heat the bedroom at all and tend to leave the window open to prevent damp

Which leads to the other problem of excellent insulation, namely needing to run air conditioning all night in the bedroom as an open window isn’t sufficient. In my case it’s ‘only’ cooling by ~3 degrees, 23 is my maximum comfortable sleeping temperature with minimal bedding, but that’s still constant for 6 months per year, whereas in a conventional house I would use nothing at night all year.