Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[ChrisC]

I know for a fact many people are actually just going to the shops everyday as 'something to do'. One my mum's neighbours is doing a round trip - Monday Asda, Tuesday Lidl, Wednesday Sainsburys, Thursday Aldi, Friday Tesco's!!! Not buying anything particularly important or necessary - just going for the sake of going to kill the odd hour or two because there is nowhere else open. You could not make it up!!!

CJ

Perhaps with living in a rural area, and not having ventured into any towns or cities during the last 3 weeks, I have been sheltered from what is actually going on. I have only been going shopping twice a week, on Mondays walking to my local small Co op just over a mile away, and Thursdays driving to a small group of shops in a nearby village about 3 miles away, for a larger shop including heavier items such as milk. On both occasions I have been going mid afternoon when the shops have been extremely quiet with only a handful of people around. I wouldn’t want to go any more often or to anywhere where I would have to queue. I just want to get there and back as quickly as possible trying to come into contact with as few people as possible for the shortest possible time. I don’t think I’m being too cautious being male and over 60 and having an 85 year old mother living at my house. Rather than wanting to go shopping every day I’m finding it quite an uncomfortable and worrying experience. The shop staff have all been very friendly, welcoming and helpful but I find all the small number of other customers like myself very quiet, looking worried and avoiding meeting others in each aisle.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps the government should amend the law, rather than tell the police not to enforce it.

Point to the piece of legislation which says you cannot buy "non-essential" items from a shop.

 

[Greybeard33]

Point to the piece of legislation which says you cannot buy "non-essential" items from a shop.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Restrictions on movement

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

By omission, shopping for anything not covered by those two categories is not a reasonable excuse for leaving home.

 

[Enthusiast]

In France you have to fill in a form before leaving the house, in Greece you have to send a text and not leave until you get permission texted back.

Those procedures are all about assisting the police in law enforcement. The legislation introduced a few weeks ago does not require that. You are allowed to leave home if you have a "reasonable excuse". A list of examples of "reasonable excuses" is provided, but it is not exhaustive (the legislation says "a reasonable excuse includes the need.." so indicating there could be others). Nor does it define the limits of some of the activities (e.g. the distance travelled to exercise).

As far as shopping goes, the law has determined what types of shops may open. But it does not determine what those shops may sell. So you get Tesco's (and others) selling bread and milk alongside dresses, socks and televisions. You also see people buying such a variety of goods. In its non-exhaustive list of reasonable excuses to go out, the legislation says people may leave home "to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies …". If you've left your home to get bread and milk then you satisfy the legislation. There's nothing to say you can't pick up a pair of socks whilst you're there. The notion that the police might determine what people may or may not buy and succeed in a prosecution should they buy contraband (provided they have satisfactorily shown why they left home) is fanciful.

STAY HOME... seems simple enough
ESSENTIAL JOURNEY ONLY... seems simple enough again !

The police are not the only ones who may not have a grasp on the legislation. Until yesterday, when accessing the TfL website for travel information, the customer was met with this message:

"Travel on public transport is for critical workers only making absolutely essential journeys,”

I don’t know on what authority such a view was taken. I also don’t know how those running TfL expect those without a car to make their essential trips for which they have a “reasonable excuse” to make. Perhaps they think that everywhere in the TfL area is within walking distance of a food shop, a pharmacy or a doctor’s surgery. Just to reinforce the message, at each bus stop across the capital is plastered a notice which says:

“You are only allowed to leave home if you are a critical worker and you cannot work at home.”

Again, totally false and something that might possibly leave an elderly or vulnerable person quite fearful when they arrive at the bus stop to catch a bus to get their basic necessities.

The police (and others) seem to have read into the legislation things that are not there. It's fine to say that the "spirit" of the law is what's important. But what's important should matters get to court is what the legislation says and how a court interprets it. It's true that courts often consider "what Parliament intended" (although Parliament had no say in the Coronavirus Restrictions as they were introduced via Statutory Instrument procedures). But I don't think anybody intended that somebody should end up in court for buying a pair of socks together with their bread and milk. That's what might happen if the police start searching shopping bags (not to mention that the risk of contamination whilst doing so far outweighs the risks posed by someone picking up a pair of socks).

 

[Darandio]

By omission, shopping for anything not covered by those two categories is not a reasonable excuse for leaving home.

But there is nothing to stop people buying these non-essential items alongside the items deemed essential, Downing Street have said as much and effectively told the police to wind their necks in.

I haven't really kept up on here today since the maintenance outage but i've not seen the one about South Yorkshire Police from yesterday when one of their police officers decided to tell a family to get in the house as they were forbidden from playing in their own garden. The officer in question claimed on camera to have specific government powers to stop them. In reality they were on a power trip, trying to erode public goodwill as quickly as possible.

 

[matt]

The UK's Easter lockdown from above

Many areas in the UK seem to be following the government advice, with relatively empty beaches and parks .

www.bbc.co.uk

An interesting video from the BBC showing that a lot of people today have been observing social distancing. Some of the London parks at the start of the video not quite so much but understandable that people are out in central London where people are less likely to have gardens etc.

 

[Enthusiast]

but i've not seen the one about South Yorkshire Police from yesterday when one of their police officers decided to tell a family to get in the house as they were forbidden from playing in their own garden. The officer in question claimed on camera to have specific government powers to stop them. In reality they were on a power trip, trying to erode public goodwill as quickly as possible.

Exactly my point. Again from the legislation:

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

A police officer may have trouble with "appurtenance" but he or she should not struggle with "..any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse" and it's not much to expect them to familiarise themselves with a fairly short piece of legislation the enforcement of which is high on their list of priorities.

 

[Iskra]

The UK's Easter lockdown from above

Many areas in the UK seem to be following the government advice, with relatively empty beaches and parks .

www.bbc.co.uk

An interesting video from the BBC showing that a lot of people today have been observing social distancing. Some of the London parks at the start of the video not quite so much but understandable that people are out in central London where people are less likely to have gardens etc.

Most people have been complying all along as far as I have observed. Unfortunately, the media (a lot of which are struggling at the moment) are jumping on every incident and misrepresenting the situation. Sadly, that is likely to lead to a fuller lockdown. The general public are generally behaving responsibly, it would be nice if the media could report responsibly and proportionately too, but they are just incapable of ditching their alarmist tripe aren't they.

 

[Busaholic]

Those procedures are all about assisting the police in law enforcement. The legislation introduced a few weeks ago does not require that. You are allowed to leave home if you have a "reasonable excuse". A list of examples of "reasonable excuses" is provided, but it is not exhaustive (the legislation says "a reasonable excuse includes the need.." so indicating there could be others). Nor does it define the limits of some of the activities (e.g. the distance travelled to exercise).

As far as shopping goes, the law has determined what types of shops may open. But it does not determine what those shops may sell. So you get Tesco's (and others) selling bread and milk alongside dresses, socks and televisions. You also see people buying such a variety of goods. In its non-exhaustive list of reasonable excuses to go out, the legislation says people may leave home "to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies …". If you've left your home to get bread and milk then you satisfy the legislation. There's nothing to say you can't pick up a pair of socks whilst you're there. The notion that the police might determine what people may or may not buy and succeed in a prosecution should they buy contraband (provided they have satisfactorily shown why they left home) is fanciful.

The police are not the only ones who may not have a grasp on the legislation. Until yesterday, when accessing the TfL website for travel information, the customer was met with this message:

"Travel on public transport is for critical workers only making absolutely essential journeys,”

I don’t know on what authority such a view was taken. I also don’t know how those running TfL expect those without a car to make their essential trips for which they have a “reasonable excuse” to make. Perhaps they think that everywhere in the TfL area is within walking distance of a food shop, a pharmacy or a doctor’s surgery. Just to reinforce the message, at each bus stop across the capital is plastered a notice which says:

“You are only allowed to leave home if you are a critical worker and you cannot work at home.”

Again, totally false and something that might possibly leave an elderly or vulnerable person quite fearful when they arrive at the bus stop to catch a bus to get their basic necessities.

The police (and others) seem to have read into the legislation things that are not there. It's fine to say that the "spirit" of the law is what's important. But what's important should matters get to court is what the legislation says and how a court interprets it. It's true that courts often consider "what Parliament intended" (although Parliament had no say in the Coronavirus Restrictions as they were introduced via Statutory Instrument procedures). But I don't think anybody intended that somebody should end up in court for buying a pair of socks together with their bread and milk. That's what might happen if the police start searching shopping bags (not to mention that the risk of contamination whilst doing so far outweighs the risks posed by someone picking up a pair of socks).

Excellent post - agree with every word.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another example in a Durham police tweet: “If you haven't got blue lights on your bike, you probably shouldn’t be on the roads this weekend,”.

.

Given that a goodly amount of motorcycle use is for leisure purposes and given the high accident rate of motorcycling I would agree with them for most people. Clearly though if you only ride a motorcycle and need to use it to get to the supermarket that's different, but very many motorcycle riders also have a car, and it would be prudent at present to choose the lower risk mode of transport to avoid the NHS having to deal with another "organ donor", as it were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people have been complying all along as far as I have observed. Unfortunately, the media (a lot of which are struggling at the moment) are jumping on every incident and misrepresenting the situation. Sadly, that is likely to lead to a fuller lockdown.

I doubt that would because the Government aren't going to read the Sun to find out if people have been complying, they'll get reports from the Police etc.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a short period of greater lockdown if the NHS is overwhelmed, though, possibly of 1-2 weeks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

indeed. If I’m going out cycling it’s on my own (as I would be for any other exercise) so I’m doing next to no harm.

I think it was probably referring to motorcycles (which aren't a form of exercise, so using one requires another of the criteria to apply). Police on pushbikes aren't very common other than in London.

 

[johnnychips]

Why don’t they say ‘motorbikes’ then, if that is what they mean? Think before you tweet!

 

[C J Snarzell]

But there is nothing to stop people buying these non-essential items alongside the items deemed essential, Downing Street have said as much and effectively told the police to wind their necks in.

I haven't really kept up on here today since the maintenance outage but i've not seen the one about South Yorkshire Police from yesterday when one of their police officers decided to tell a family to get in the house as they were forbidden from playing in their own garden. The officer in question claimed on camera to have specific government powers to stop them. In reality they were on a power trip, trying to erode public goodwill as quickly as possible.

I've seen the video of the SYP incident and as an ex-cop myself I just cringed watching it! The female cop who is clearly very young in service does herself no favours. The problem is with this type of policing it just creates friction and bad feeling in our communities when everyone should be staying positive and at least working together sensibly to make the lockdown work & ultimately save lives.

CJ

 

[sheff1]

I doubt that would because the Government aren't going to read the Sun to find out if people have been complying, they'll get reports from the Police etc.

That will be the very same police who seemed incapable of reading and understanding simple legislation.

 

[sheff1]

I've seen the video of the SYP incident and as an ex-cop myself I just cringed watching it! The female cop who is clearly very young in service does herself no favours.

South Yorkshire Police have quite a history of such things, as those who were there during the miner's strike can testify.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen the video of the SYP incident and as an ex-cop myself I just cringed watching it! The female cop who is clearly very young in service does herself no favours. The problem is with this type of policing it just creates friction and bad feeling in our communities when everyone should be staying positive and at least working together sensibly to make the lockdown work & ultimately save lives.

And yet good advice could have been given such as to consider what to do if your neighbours are out too (i.e. each stays 1m from their fence, and stay away from the road so people needing to walk past can).

 

[Iskra]

South Yorkshire Police have quite a history of such things, as those who were there during the miner's strike can testify.

They simply muddle from calamity to calamity. This one recently too; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...yorkshire-teenager-police-baton-a9327236.html

How they still exist is beyond me.

While some of their individual officers are okay, there is something very wrong with that force to keep having so many monumental cock-ups. I hope one day the police forces of Yorkshire all merge, so SYP cease to exist and we have a credible police force.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Squads of BTP blockading Skegness bound trains at Nottingham, Grantham and Skegness itself refusing entry to non essential travellers. Apparently a spike in sales of tickets in advance for this weekend has been noted. Multiple individuals already dumped back on the train to where they came from apparently.

Surely this would cause problems for those living in the more rural parts of Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire on that line who have had to travel to the nearest main centre to go and do their shopping, food or medical. I say this because many of the stations on the Poacher Line have no ticketing facilities, therefore no proof to show to PC Purpose and PC Common that you are indeed going straight home after getting food suppiles.

 

[DarloRich]

I am no doctor but being within 2m of a non-coughing person for one second must carry a minuscule risk

Because human, people make mistakes, go into auto-pilot. I saw it happen this morning at the local Asda, people just forgetting then realising & apologising. So long as for the most part people keep a reasonable distance, don't cough or sneeze around people, wash their hands regularly then the risks are going to be low. .

I agree entirely the risk is small but we need to be considerate of each other, think about how we behave and respect each other, because if people cant follow a simple rule like 2m's distancing which other rules are they just forgetting? Washing their hands? Isolating? Covering their mouth? staying at home etc etc. The mind set of some just isn't right imo.

980 deaths today. That's why we need these rules.

Its not like a cartoon where an infected person has a cloud of covid surrounding their bodies permanently

I am not a simpleton.

One thing did occur to me whilst we queued up outside in the car park to get in. Today is a nice enough morning, clouds breaking, sun coming out, everyone reasonably happy. But what if we have any more storms like we did earlier this year? Will people still be content to queue for some time when the skies open & let loose?

That might make my shopping experience more pleasurable!

 

[111-111-1]

I've generally tried (within reason) to "eat up" what I've already got before shopping again, if that gives you an idea. I think that's in the spirit of being asked to shop as little as possible.

The big problem with that, although I agree with the principal, is next time you go shopping the essentials may not be there. My 2 local supermarkets have not had pasta or tinned tomatoes in for my last few visits and I am now getting very low on both and a week ago both only had massive bottles of milk. I now if available work on the basis of if the last bottle of milk or another item is open buy one when available so as to be prepared.

I do go in the evening about 18.30 - 19.00 as they are quieter, I have only queued once and there was only 2 in front of me, unlike when driving home from work early this afternoon there were massive queues at evey supermarket i passed.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Ok, so I had a choice when I went shopping today getting home (as I don't drive)
I could have

1. Got a taxi from the taxi rank (2 minute wait, £7)
2. Ordered an Ola (19 minute wait, £4.25)
3. Waited for the bus (25 minute wait, £1.50)

The first option would have meant potentially knocking a leg wound whilst getting into the taxi, and paying significantly over the odds, with no option to pay by card.
The second option would have been cashless, could put the bags in the boot (3 full bags with various top up groceries and necessities) and wouldn't have upset my wound as I can get in/out of a Prius without upsetting it.
The 3rd option would have resulted in a load of kerfuffle with the bags whilst boarding the bus, trying to get the correct change out of a cash bag in my pocket, and trying to find a seat not occupied on a Enviro200 whilst trying to manage 3 full bags on my own, and then a 400 yard walk up then down hill to my door.

Both option 2/3 would have meant waiting near the store in the bus station/by the bus station area for nearly 20 minutes, but whilst waiting I could take a couple of bus pictures on my phone whilst waiting, at the same time being more than 2m from someone else.

What would people suggest I would do with those 3 options on the table (clue - I opted for the Ola because of the amount of bags and being on my own. Had I had a relative with me (who lives in the same house) I would no doubt have got the bus because of trying to save money (and the potential to grab a few bits from the local corner shop and possibly top up the gas & leccy).

Tomorrow I need to visit the post office in the next town because my local one is Shut till Tuesday and I need to pay some money in my account and pay the poll tax for my mom. I might have a look in the coop part for some ideas for teas whilst I'm at it.

 

[DarloRich]

get a cab account/app and pay automatically by card. That or walk to a shop.

 

[bussnapperwm]

get a cab account/app and pay automatically by card. That or walk to a shop.

Walk to the shop? The nearest Iceland with a fairly decent range is over a mile uphill, then a quarter mile downhill (there is a closer one but they don't stock everything that was on my shopping list).

I used use Ola instead (uber was saying an extra few minute wait) just because of the bags (and took a few bus photographs whilst waiting for the Ola to come)

 

[Bantamzen]

In posts about the exercise rules, IIRC you have insisted that it is the letter of the legislation that matters, not the associated government guidance. Yet in respect of shopping, you are happy that a briefing from an anonymous "Downing Street spokesman" overrides the legislation?

Perhaps the government should amend the law, rather than tell the police not to enforce it.

Would you care to point me to the legislation that states what is and what is not classed as an essential item?

I agree entirely the risk is small but we need to be considerate of each other, think about how we behave and respect each other, because if people cant follow a simple rule like 2m's distancing which other rules are they just forgetting? Washing their hands? Isolating? Covering their mouth? staying at home etc etc. The mind set of some just isn't right imo.

980 deaths today. That's why we need these rules.

Actually there were not 980 deaths today. So far 117 deaths were recorded for 09/04, the rest were previous to that day. That's not to say the death toll for yesterday will not rise, but please at least use the data corectly.

I am not a simpleton.

No you are not.

That might make my shopping experience more pleasurable!

Sadly the current situation is not in place to make your life a bit more comfortable.

 

[yorkie]

.

980 deaths today. That's why we need these rules.

Completely misleading; most of the deaths are people who have other conditions and of course you are ignoring those other conditions; the actual reason why the measures are in place is to avoid overwhelming the NHS and therefore a pod preventable deaths, which we are succeeding in doing.

Many people are going to get the virus regardless; it's a matter of when. That you are coming out with such statements suggest you misunderstand the need for measures and the mortality rate of the virus. Either that or you know the statement makes no real sense but are hoping people won't question it.

It's actually very dangerous because we risk far greater long term damage if people believe the narrative you are giving out.

 

[LowLevel]

Surely this would cause problems for those living in the more rural parts of Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire on that line who have had to travel to the nearest main centre to go and do their shopping, food or medical. I say this because many of the stations on the Poacher Line have no ticketing facilities, therefore no proof to show to PC Purpose and PC Common that you are indeed going straight home after getting food suppiles.

Not really - someone popping to Sleaford or indeed Skegness for some shopping isn't going to look like or say they're off to open their caravan. Skegness is a strange place - there are a handful of station staff who usually check all tickets and the guards are from the same 3 depots so generally the regulars and not so regulars are quite obvious. It's one of those places where you're on first name terms with everyone from the local head teacher to the local drug dealer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely this would cause problems for those living in the more rural parts of Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire on that line who have had to travel to the nearest main centre to go and do their shopping, food or medical. I say this because many of the stations on the Poacher Line have no ticketing facilities, therefore no proof to show to PC Purpose and PC Common that you are indeed going straight home after getting food suppiles.

I think it's fairly obvious by looking at a family group[1] or group with multiple adults[2] carrying bags full of stuff that isn't supermarket shopping who's out for a day at the beach.

[1] At present families are asked to send only one adult shopping and ideally no children
[2] Housemates may have an issue and would do well, even if they don't have to, to carry proof of being at the same address

 

[Ianno87]

get a cab account/app and pay automatically by card. That or walk to a shop.

A cab is a luxury cost for many people (esp. if you don't have a job), and not everybody lives in walking/heavy bag carrying distance to a shop.

 

[bramling]

Completely misleading; most of the deaths are people who have other conditions and of course you are ignoring those other conditions; the actual reason why the measures are in place is to avoid overwhelming the NHS and therefore a pod preventable deaths, which we are succeeding in doing.

Many people are going to get the virus regardless; it's a matter of when. That you are coming out with such statements suggest you misunderstand the need for measures and the mortality rate of the virus. Either that or you know the statement makes no real sense but are hoping people won't question it.

It's actually very dangerous because we risk far greater long term damage if people believe the narrative you are giving out.

I can see two sides to this. However I’d be quite worried were I for example aged early 60s and been told by the doctor I was bordering on diabetes. Such a person would be at work under the current guidelines.

If you think the current level of anger is over the top, it will pale into insignificance if people start losing loved ones in a manner that they see as having been preventable. Let’s hope that situation doesn’t arise.