Enterprise Substitutions (DMUs instead of Enterprise stock)

[duesselmartin]

From 25 August 2024 the Enterprise will move from Lanyon Place to Grand Central with an hourly service commencing from 7 October 2024.

any idea what stock will be used?

 

[dubscottie]

any idea what stock will be used?

I haven't heard anything yet but I would presume it will be 6 car 22000.
There is the possibility however that every second train could be std class only so C3k units & 22000 could be used.
It depends on what level of catering they intend to provide.

 

[Flying Snail]

What I have heard is that 3 extra diagrams will be needed,
2X 6 car 2200 with 1st class and catering from IE and 1x C3k from NIR.

No idea if that is genuine fact or just speculation though.

 

[stadler]

I haven't heard anything yet but I would presume it will be 6 car 22000.
There is the possibility however that every second train could be std class only so C3k units & 22000 could be used.
It depends on what level of catering they intend to provide.

I am sure the 29000s will end up being used too. The last four times i have been in Belfast i have found one of those on an Enterprise service. So if they are running even more than i am sure they will turn up even more regularly. But the 22000s will of course be the booked stock.

What I have heard is that 3 extra diagrams will be needed,
2X 6 car 2200 with 1st class and catering from IE and 1x C3k from NIR.

No idea if that is genuine fact or just speculation though.

I am not sure that Irish Rail have enough Guards to run three diagrams. They only employ 5 Guards who sign the full Enterprise route (plus a sixth Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only) which does not seem like enough. Currently there are two NIR diagrams and one IE diagram. If they are changing it to three NIR diagrams and three IE diagrams then that is a lot of trains for just 5 Guards to work. NIR have more than enough Guards to cover more work (the have 52 Conductors and 11 Train Managers who sign the route) but IE are going to have a very difficult time. With just 5 Guards that will mean they will rely on a lot of overtime to run three diagrams. It will also probably mean a lot of cancellations due to staff shortages when one of the 5 Guards is unavailable. Unless they are planning to hire more Guards but i have not heard anything about that or seen any job advertisements.

 

[Trainbike46]

I am sure the 29000s will end up being used too. The last four times i have been in Belfast i have found one of those on an Enterprise service. So if they are running even more than i am sure they will turn up even more regularly. But the 22000s will of course be the booked stock.


I am not sure that Irish Rail have enough Guards to run three diagrams. They only employ 5 Guards who sign the full Enterprise route (plus a sixth Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only) which does not seem like enough. Currently there are two NIR diagrams and one IE diagram. If they are changing it to three NIR diagrams and three IE diagrams then that is a lot of trains for just 5 Guards to work. NIR have more than enough Guards to cover more work (the have 52 Conductors and 11 Train Managers who sign the route) but IE are going to have a very difficult time. With just 5 Guards that will mean they will rely on a lot of overtime to run three diagrams. It will also probably mean a lot of cancellations due to staff shortages when one of the 5 Guards is unavailable. Unless they are planning to hire more Guards but i have not heard anything about that or seen any job advertisements.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that a plan for more frequent services comes with a plan for more staff to operate those services - that could be hiring new staff, but equally they could be intending to train some exisiting staff on the Belfast route as well

 

[IrishRailScene]

I am sure the 29000s will end up being used too. The last four times i have been in Belfast i have found one of those on an Enterprise service. So if they are running even more than i am sure they will turn up even more regularly. But the 22000s will of course be the booked stock.


I am not sure that Irish Rail have enough Guards to run three diagrams. They only employ 5 Guards who sign the full Enterprise route (plus a sixth Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only) which does not seem like enough. Currently there are two NIR diagrams and one IE diagram. If they are changing it to three NIR diagrams and three IE diagrams then that is a lot of trains for just 5 Guards to work. NIR have more than enough Guards to cover more work (the have 52 Conductors and 11 Train Managers who sign the route) but IE are going to have a very difficult time. With just 5 Guards that will mean they will rely on a lot of overtime to run three diagrams. It will also probably mean a lot of cancellations due to staff shortages when one of the 5 Guards is unavailable. Unless they are planning to hire more Guards but i have not heard anything about that or seen any job advertisements.

29000s are usually a last resort but yes they are to be trialled to GC.

 

[jamesontheroad]

From 25 August 2024 the Enterprise will move from Lanyon Place to Grand Central with an hourly service commencing from 7 October 2024.

With the step up to hourly service, the locomotive-hauled trains will be permanently complimented by 2 x Class 22000 DMU from IÉ and 1 x six-car Class 3000 DMU from NIR.

 

[IrishRailScene]

Cross-Border Train Alterations - Passenger Information
13 May 00:01-01 September 00:00
service

• Rail

Message last updated at 09:35 on 07/07/24:

From the 3rd July onwards the following cross-border trains services will be operated by non-Enterprise trains and will be operated by Irish Rail InterCity Railcar (ICR).

Full catering services will be available, with limited capacity in 1st Class and restricted space for bicycles (2 spaces instead of the usual 4).

Monday - Saturday
07:35 Dublin - Portadown
11:06 Portadown - Dublin
13:20 Dublin - Portadown
16:39 Portadown - Dublin
19:00 Dublin - Portadown
20:48 Portadown - Dublin

Sunday*
10:00 Dublin - Portadown
13:36 Portadown - Dublin
16:00 Dublin -Portadown
19:36 Portadown - Dublin

*From the 3rd July onwards the following cross-border trains services will be operated by non-Enterprise trains and will be operated by a NI Railways CAF with no 1st Class facilities available on board.

Sunday
09:40 Portadown - Dublin
12:00 Dublin - Portadown

With the step up to hourly service, the locomotive-hauled trains will be permanently complimented by 2 x Class 22000 DMU from IÉ and 1 x six-car Class 3000 DMU from NIR.

Where did you hear re 2 ICRs?

 

[jamesontheroad]

Where did you hear re 2 ICRs?

Source: https://www.railwaygazette.com/pass...boost-in-irish-timetable-recast/66799.article

 

[dubscottie]

29000s are usually a last resort but yes they are to be trialled to GC.

29000s will go up for route clearance. As far as I am aware, the AWS and TWPS was removed from them so its highly unlikely they will venture north on a regular basis.


Current workings

Sundays

 

[IrishRailScene]

29000s will go up for route clearance. As far as I am aware, the AWS and TWPS was removed from them so its highly unlikely they will venture north on a regular basis.


Current workings
View attachment 161393
Sundays View attachment 161395

This will remain in place until atleast 25 August.

I have managed to figure out the Enterprise diagrams from 25/08/2024

0602 Belfast / Connolly - 0850 Connolly / Belfast - 1202 Belfast/Connolly - 1450 Connolly/Belfast - 1756 Belfast/Connolly - 2050 Connolly / Belfast
0800 Belfast / Connolly - 1050 Connolly / Belfast - 1402 Belfast/Connolly - 1650 Connolly/Belfast - 2002 Belfast/Connolly
0650 Connolly/Belfast - 1002 Belfast / Connolly - 1250 Connolly / Belfast - 1556 Belfast / Connolly - 1850 Connolly / Belfast.

29000s will go up for route clearance. As far as I am aware, the AWS and TWPS was removed from them so its highly unlikely they will venture north on a regular basis.


Current workings
View attachment 161393
Sundays View attachment 161395

Yesterdays 0721 ex Portadown & 0930 ex Dublin was a 3 x C3K.

 

[dubscottie]

With the start of the new timetable on Monday and until Belfast Grand Central station opens, all Belfast trains (Portadown) will be DD sets Mon-Fri apart from the 18.50 Connolly-Portadown. The other services booked for ICRs are only running to/from Dundalk or Newry or are cancelled.

Sat is all DD sets. Again with ICRs only going to/from Newry or Dundalk.

DMUs on Sundays are only 10.35 & 16.30 Portadown-Connolly and 12.50 & 18.35 Connolly-Portadown. (NIR CAF).

From Monday there will be no booked workings for 29000s north of Dundalk.

 

[IrishRailScene]

07:21 & 13:06 Portadown - Connolly & 09:30 & 15:20 Connolly - Portadown are 6 piece 3000.

 

[dubscottie]

When Belfast Grand Central opens -
NOTE - until all the 41 coaches are in service this could still change.
6 ICR- 6 car 22000 with/without 1st class
DD- De Detrich
6 CAF NIR - 2x 3 car NIR 3000 units.

Connolly-Belfast (Mon-Fri)
05.50 6 ICR
06.50 DD
07.50 6 ICR
08.50 6 CAF NIR
09.50 DD
10.50 DD
11.50 6 ICR
12.50 DD
13.50 6 ICR
14.50 6 CAF NIR
15.50 DD
16.50 DD
17.50 6 ICR
18.50 DD
20.50 6 CAF NIR

Belfast-Connolly (Mon-Fri)
06.00 6 CAF NIR
07.00 DD
08.00 DD
09.00 6 ICR
10.00 DD
11.00 6 ICR
12.00 6 CAF NIR
13.00 DD
14.00 DD
15.00 6 ICR
16.00 DD
17.00 6 ICR
18.00 6 CAF NIR
19.00 DD
20.00 DD
21.00 6 ICR

Will post Sat & Sun if anyone is interested.

 

[Elwyn]

Will post Sat & Sun if anyone is interested.

Yes please.

 

[dubscottie]

Saturday same as Mon-Fri.

Sunday
Connolly-Belfast

08.50 DD
10.50 DD
12.50 DD
13.50 6 ICR
14.50 DD
16.50 DD
18.50 DD
20.50 DD

Belfast-Connolly

08.05 DD
10.05 DD
12.05 DD
14.05 DD
16.05 DD
17.05 6 ICR
18.05 DD
20.05 DD

 

[Flying Snail]

When Belfast Grand Central opens -
NOTE - until all the 41 coaches are in service this could still change.
6 ICR- 6 car 22000 with/without 1st class
DD- De Detrich
6 CAF NIR - 2x 3 car NIR 3000 units.

Connolly-Belfast (Mon-Fri)
05.50 6 ICR
06.50 DD
07.50 6 ICR
08.50 6 CAF NIR
09.50 DD
10.50 DD
11.50 6 ICR
12.50 DD
13.50 6 ICR
14.50 6 CAF NIR
15.50 DD
16.50 DD
17.50 6 ICR
18.50 DD
20.50 6 CAF NIR

Belfast-Connolly (Mon-Fri)
06.00 6 CAF NIR
07.00 DD
08.00 DD
09.00 6 ICR
10.00 DD
11.00 6 ICR
12.00 6 CAF NIR
13.00 DD
14.00 DD
15.00 6 ICR
16.00 DD
17.00 6 ICR
18.00 6 CAF NIR
19.00 DD
20.00 DD
21.00 6 ICR

Will post Sat & Sun if anyone is interested.

Your diagrams are unbalanced, I assume the 20.00 from Belfast shouldn't be there.

 

[Iskra]

Are these DMU substitutions why 1st class fares aren’t showing on some journeys? If you do end up with a unit that has 1st, can you upgrade on the day?

 

[FormerBritInMe]

With the start of the new timetable on Monday and until Belfast Grand Central station opens, all Belfast trains (Portadown) will be DD sets Mon-Fri apart from the 18.50 Connolly-Portadown. The other services booked for ICRs are only running to/from Dundalk or Newry or are cancelled.

Curious as to why they need to use DMUs since I thought the existing Enterprise sets were set up for push-pull operation and should be able to reverse at Portadown.

 

[Flying Snail]

Curious as to why they need to use DMUs since I thought the existing Enterprise sets were set up for push-pull operation and should be able to reverse at Portadown.

They are almost always used push-pull, running round in Connoly is a non-runner these days due to capacity constraints.

The DD stock have been reversing at Portadown since the ending of Enterprise service at Lanyon Place and will continue until Grand Central opens later this year.

The new hourly service will use half DD sets and half DMU because there aren't enough DD sets for more than a 2 hourly service.

It does mean there will be very different service levels, 3 diagrams of DD stock with full buffet and proper 1st class, 2 diagrams of IE 2200 with probably unreliable provision of rubbish 1st and 1 diagram of NIR 3CK stock with commuter layout.

 

[Trainbike46]

They are almost always used push-pull, running round in Connoly is a non-runner these days due to capacity constraints.

The DD stock have been reversing at Portadown since the ending of Enterprise service at Lanyon Place and will continue until Grand Central opens later this year.

The new hourly service will use half DD sets and half DMU because there aren't enough DD sets for more than a 2 hourly service.

It does mean there will be very different service levels, 3 diagrams of DD stock with full buffet and proper 1st class, 2 diagrams of IE 2200 with probably unreliable provision of rubbish 1st and 1 diagram of NIR 3CK stock with commuter layout.

And after a few years, everything should switch to the new enterprise stock when that arrives

 

[dubscottie]

Your diagrams are unbalanced, I assume the 20.00 from Belfast shouldn't be there.

My bad.. its in the Working Timetable but didn't notice its a spare path (only operate as required).

It does mean there will be very different service levels, 3 diagrams of DD stock with full buffet and proper 1st class, 2 diagrams of IE 2200 with probably unreliable provision of rubbish 1st and 1 diagram of NIR 3CK stock with commuter layout.

There is no guarantee that the 22000 will have 1st. Most Sligo trains will be 6 car standard only sets that seem to be on captive diagrams.
I would expect them to swap when failures occur on the Belfast however.

 

[stadler]

When Belfast Grand Central opens -
NOTE - until all the 41 coaches are in service this could still change.
6 ICR- 6 car 22000 with/without 1st class
DD- De Detrich
6 CAF NIR - 2x 3 car NIR 3000 units.

Connolly-Belfast (Mon-Fri)
05.50 6 ICR
06.50 DD
07.50 6 ICR
08.50 6 CAF NIR
09.50 DD
10.50 DD
11.50 6 ICR
12.50 DD
13.50 6 ICR
14.50 6 CAF NIR
15.50 DD
16.50 DD
17.50 6 ICR
18.50 DD
20.50 6 CAF NIR

Belfast-Connolly (Mon-Fri)
06.00 6 CAF NIR
07.00 DD
08.00 DD
09.00 6 ICR
10.00 DD
11.00 6 ICR
12.00 6 CAF NIR
13.00 DD
14.00 DD
15.00 6 ICR
16.00 DD
17.00 6 ICR
18.00 6 CAF NIR
19.00 DD
20.00 DD
21.00 6 ICR

Will post Sat & Sun if anyone is interested.

Based off that information i have tried to create the individual diagrams:

• DD:
06:50 Dublin to Belfast
10:00 Belfast to Dublin
12:50 Dublin to Belfast
16:00 Belfast to Dublin
18:50 Dublin to Belfast

• DD:
07:00 Belfast to Dublin
09:50 Dublin to Belfast
13:00 Belfast to Dublin
15:50 Dublin to Belfast
19:00 Belfast to Dublin

• DD:
08:00 Belfast to Dublin
10:50 Dublin to Belfast
14:00 Belfast to Dublin
16:50 Dublin to Belfast
20:00 Belfast to Dublin

• 3000:
06:00 Belfast to Dublin
08:50 Dublin to Belfast
12:00 Belfast to Dublin
14:50 Dublin to Belfast
18:00 Belfast to Dublin
20:50 Dublin to Belfast

• 22000:
05:50 Dublin to Belfast
09:00 Belfast to Dublin
11:50 Dublin to Belfast
15:00 Belfast to Dublin
17:50 Dublin to Belfast
21:00 Belfast to Dublin

• 22000:
07:50 Dublin to Belfast
11:00 Belfast to Dublin
13:50 Dublin to Belfast
17:00 Belfast to Dublin

At the moment i am pretty sure one DD set is staffed with Irish Rail employed Drivers and Guards and starts and finishes in Dublin every day. While the two other DD sets are both staffed with Translink employed Drivers and Guards and both start and finish in Belfast every day.

But the information you gave shows that all three DD sets will start and finish in different locations. One set starts in Dublin and finishes in Belfast while the other two sets both start in Belfast and both finish in Dublin which will surely mean empty running.

So will they be running empty DD sets every day all the way from Dublin to Belfast or vice versa? Also surely this will make the staff diagrams more complicating too?

Also will the morning Newry to Dublin stopper and the evening Dublin to Newry stopper still run once this new timetable starts? If so will they be 22000 or 29000 operated?

 

[berneyarms]

Based off that information i have tried to create the individual diagrams:

• DD:
06:50 Dublin to Belfast
10:00 Belfast to Dublin
12:50 Dublin to Belfast
16:00 Belfast to Dublin
18:50 Dublin to Belfast

• DD:
07:00 Belfast to Dublin
09:50 Dublin to Belfast
13:00 Belfast to Dublin
15:50 Dublin to Belfast
19:00 Belfast to Dublin

• DD:
08:00 Belfast to Dublin
10:50 Dublin to Belfast
14:00 Belfast to Dublin
16:50 Dublin to Belfast
20:00 Belfast to Dublin

• 3000:
06:00 Belfast to Dublin
08:50 Dublin to Belfast
12:00 Belfast to Dublin
14:50 Dublin to Belfast
18:00 Belfast to Dublin
20:50 Dublin to Belfast

• 22000:
05:50 Dublin to Belfast
09:00 Belfast to Dublin
11:50 Dublin to Belfast
15:00 Belfast to Dublin
17:50 Dublin to Belfast
21:00 Belfast to Dublin

• 22000:
07:50 Dublin to Belfast
11:00 Belfast to Dublin
13:50 Dublin to Belfast
17:00 Belfast to Dublin

At the moment i am pretty sure one DD set is staffed with Irish Rail employed Drivers and Guards and starts and finishes in Dublin every day. While the two other DD sets are both staffed with Translink employed Drivers and Guards and both start and finish in Belfast every day.

But the information you gave shows that all three DD sets will start and finish in different locations. One set starts in Dublin and finishes in Belfast while the other two sets both start in Belfast and both finish in Dublin which will surely mean empty running.

So will they be running empty DD sets every day all the way from Dublin to Belfast or vice versa? Also surely this will make the staff diagrams more complicating too?

Also will the morning Newry to Dublin stopper and the evening Dublin to Newry stopper still run once this new timetable starts? If so will they be 22000 or 29000 operated?

You’re wrong about the crewing and set rosters.

The DD sets are maintained in Belfast, and as such have to rotate through three diagrams that get them back to Belfast for maintenance.

In the old timetable one DD set started and finished in Belfast, one started in Belfast and finished in Connolly, and a third started in Connolly and finished in Belfast.

An NIR crew took an extended break in Connolly to facilitate this, swapping sets.

Set 1:
06:50 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
09:30 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
12:35 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
15:20 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
18:05 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
20:50 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew

Set 2:
08:00 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
11:20 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
14:05 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
16:50 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
20:05 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew

Set 3:
07:35 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
10:35 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew
13:20 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
16:05 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew
19:00 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew

This same pattern will continue with the new timetable, albeit with the adjusted times as per dubscottie's post.

There is no 20:00 Belfast/Connolly in the new timetable - as dubscottie already acknowledged above, he made a mistake - that’s just a path.

There certainly won't be empty running between Dublin and Belfast. That would be nonsensical.

The Newry services will be replaced by Enterprise services once the hourly services start.

There is no guarantee that the 22000 will have 1st. Most Sligo trains will be 6 car standard only sets that seem to be on captive diagrams.
I would expect them to swap when failures occur on the Belfast however.

My understanding is that the 22k sets rostered will be the ones with First Class, but in the event of a failure then, just like now, that would change.

The timetable will also clearly differentiate between the different levels of service on offer between the various train sets.

 

[dubscottie]

The timetable will also clearly differentiate between the different levels of service on offer between the various train sets.

The WTT doesn't differentiate between a 6 car 22000 with 1st and one without.
If a 6 car Belfast failed in Connolly, a 6 car with no 1st could be pulled off the Sligo.

Current instructions are that DD sets are only to be refuelled in Connolly.
They are also using the carriage washer in Connolly now although this may be temporary.
Also remember that since the EGVs were added to the DD sets, there are now 4 DD sets.

 

[craigybagel]

You’re wrong about the crewing and set rosters.

The DD sets are maintained in Belfast, and as such have to rotate through three diagrams that get them back to Belfast for maintenance.

In the old timetable one DD set started and finished in Belfast, one started in Belfast and finished in Connolly, and a third started in Connolly and finished in Belfast.

An NIR crew took an extended break in Connolly to facilitate this, swapping sets.

Set 1:
06:50 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
09:30 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
12:35 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
15:20 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
18:05 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
20:50 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew

Set 2:
08:00 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
11:20 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew
14:05 Belfast/Connolly - NIR Crew
16:50 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
20:05 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew

Set 3:
07:35 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
10:35 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew
13:20 Connolly/Belfast - IE Crew
16:05 Belfast/Connolly - IE Crew
19:00 Connolly/Belfast - NIR Crew

This same pattern will continue with the new timetable, albeit with the adjusted times as per dubscottie's post.

Am I right in thinking (based off info supplied for the driver route knowledge thread) that it's not just Belfast and Dublin crews involved, but for drivers at least also Portadown and Dundalk? Curious as to how that is worked out....

With regards to the concerns about guards - an hourly service has been talked about for years. I'm sure Irish Rail will have already planned for that, and aren't just relying on the existing link of 5 at Connolly....

 

[berneyarms]

The WTT doesn't differentiate between a 6 car 22000 with 1st and one without.
If a 6 car Belfast failed in Connolly, a 6 car with no 1st could be pulled off the Sligo.

Current instructions are that DD sets are only to be refuelled in Connolly.
They are also using the carriage washer in Connolly now although this may be temporary.
Also remember that since the EGVs were added to the DD sets, there are now 4 DD sets.

Just to clarify, I’ve my own sources, and I wasn’t using the WTT.

My understanding of the plan is that when the hourly Enterprise service starts, the two companies will, in the public timetable, clearly differentiate between the different levels of service available on each departure depending on which type of train is planned to operate it based on the planned diagrams above (which look correct to me, except for the 20:00 ex-Belfast which won’t exist, as you corrected).

This would be in an effort to lower expectations for those services that won’t be using a DD set.

They will use three DD sets, two ICRs and one NIR CAF set to operate the service.

My understanding is that the ICRs rostered for the Enterprise will be sets with 1st class.

Now clearly if there is a failure, then as you say, just like now, we may end up with a non-first class set, but that would be the exception to the rule.

I know that there is the extra DD set, but that’s the exam spare effectively and isn’t available for service in the normal course of events - there are three sets diagrammed in service on any day and if one fails, then something else usually has to substitute in.

Am I right in thinking (based off info supplied for the driver route knowledge thread) that it's not just Belfast and Dublin crews involved, but for drivers at least also Portadown and Dundalk? Curious as to how that is worked out....

With regards to the concerns about guards - an hourly service has been talked about for years. I'm sure Irish Rail will have already planned for that, and aren't just relying on the existing link of 5 at Connolly....

I’m quite sure that there is a plan to deal with the crewing - I don’t know the details of that, but the two governments are specifically funding the extra operational costs associated with running the additional departures.

 

[stadler]

Thank you for the clarification regarding the DD set diagrams. I had not realised the sets started and finished in different places. That makes sense regarding crewing.

Can i also ask will the six car 22000 used be two 22000 units coupled or an actual six car 22000 unit? Originally when the 22000 were introduced they were all in 3 and 6 car formation. Then they got split in to 3 and 4 and 5 car formation leaving no 6 car units left. But recently they have had lots of new carriages delivered. I read recently that the plan was for them to be returned to their original 3 and 6 car formations. I think that the only 22200 with First Class are 5 car so i presume that this means the return to 6 car units will happen when the full hourly Enterprise service starts?

Regarding staffing Irish Rail might be able to get away with not employing more Guards if depending how they work out the staff diagrams.

Irish Rail currency employ five Guards who sign Dublin to Belfast and DD and 22000 and 29000 stock and one Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only and 22000 and 29000 stock only. Now that the Newry stopper is finishing they might be able to get that one Guard to sign the full Dublin to Belfast route and DD stock too which will give them six Guards for Enterprise services.

I believe that the Irish Rail crewed Enterprise services can run DOO south of Dundalk if necessary when a 22000 or 29000 is working them. So presumably on the two 22000 diagrams they could just have a Guard doing Dundalk to Belfast and vice versa which could save some staffing. So they might be able to manage without employing any more.

This is just a guess so who knows what will actually end up happening but they may well be able to manage with the six Guards that they already have.

 

[craigybagel]

Thank you for the clarification regarding the DD set diagrams. I had not realised the sets started and finished in different places. That makes sense regarding crewing.

Can i also ask will the six car 22000 used be two 22000 units coupled or an actual six car 22000 unit? Originally when the 22000 were introduced they were all in 3 and 6 car formation. Then they got split in to 3 and 4 and 5 car formation leaving no 6 car units left. But recently they have had lots of new carriages delivered. I read recently that the plan was for them to be returned to their original 3 and 6 car formations. I think that the only 22200 with First Class are 5 car so i presume that this means the return to 6 car units will happen when the full hourly Enterprise service starts?

It will presumably need to be whichever 22000s are fitted with TPWS & AWS.

Regarding staffing Irish Rail might be able to get away with not employing more Guards if depending how they work out the staff diagrams.

Irish Rail currency employ five Guards who sign Dublin to Belfast and DD and 22000 and 29000 stock and one Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only and 22000 and 29000 stock only. Now that the Newry stopper is finishing they might be able to get that one Guard to sign the full Dublin to Belfast route and DD stock too which will give them six Guards for Enterprise services.

I believe that the Irish Rail crewed Enterprise services can run DOO south of Dundalk if necessary when a 22000 or 29000 is working them. So presumably on the two 22000 diagrams they could just have a Guard doing Dundalk to Belfast and vice versa which could save some staffing. So they might be able to manage without employing any more.

This is just a guess so who knows what will actually end up happening but they may well be able to manage with the six Guards that they already have.

They will employ more. Even if they ran DOO south of Dundalk (which is of limited use anyway when the 5 original guards are all Dublin based) there is no way they have enough to triple the amount of diagrams they need to cover

My understanding is that the ICRs rostered for the Enterprise will be sets with 1st class.

Now clearly if there is a failure, then as you say, just like now, we may end up with a non-first class set, but that would be the exception to the rule.

I know that there is the extra DD set, but that’s the exam spare effectively and isn’t available for service in the normal course of events - there are three sets diagrammed in service on any day and if one fails, then something else usually has to substitute in.


I’m quite sure that there is a plan to deal with the crewing - I don’t know the details of that, but the two governments are specifically funding the extra operational costs associated with running the additional departures.

Thank you. I have every faith in your sources - and indeed that IR have some kind of plan in mind.

 

[berneyarms]

Thank you for the clarification regarding the DD set diagrams. I had not realised the sets started and finished in different places. That makes sense regarding crewing.

Can i also ask will the six car 22000 used be two 22000 units coupled or an actual six car 22000 unit? Originally when the 22000 were introduced they were all in 3 and 6 car formation. Then they got split in to 3 and 4 and 5 car formation leaving no 6 car units left. But recently they have had lots of new carriages delivered. I read recently that the plan was for them to be returned to their original 3 and 6 car formations. I think that the only 22200 with First Class are 5 car so i presume that this means the return to 6 car units will happen when the full hourly Enterprise service starts?

Regarding staffing Irish Rail might be able to get away with not employing more Guards if depending how they work out the staff diagrams.

Irish Rail currency employ five Guards who sign Dublin to Belfast and DD and 22000 and 29000 stock and one Guard who signs Dundalk to Newry only and 22000 and 29000 stock only. Now that the Newry stopper is finishing they might be able to get that one Guard to sign the full Dublin to Belfast route and DD stock too which will give them six Guards for Enterprise services.

I believe that the Irish Rail crewed Enterprise services can run DOO south of Dundalk if necessary when a 22000 or 29000 is working them. So presumably on the two 22000 diagrams they could just have a Guard doing Dundalk to Belfast and vice versa which could save some staffing. So they might be able to manage without employing any more.

This is just a guess so who knows what will actually end up happening but they may well be able to manage with the six Guards that they already have.

The ICR sets are currently being reformed and we will end up with a fleet of 3, 4 and 6 car sets.

The sets with first class are being restored to 6 car sets (they were reduced to 5 car) and two of those will be rostered on the Belfast route.