Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[millemille]

Out of interest, why has an NIR not been raised for the jacking point cracks? Or has this issue been escalated far beyond NIR-online?

If everyone who operates Hitachi units already knows about the issue - as is obviously the case - then an NIR is not really needed. It will be a low priority right now but one may come out next week.

 

[ScouserGirl]

I believe southeastern units are being examined too

 

[syorksdeano]

Anyone else get the feeling that the timetable due next week won't be happening?

Clearly with quite a lot of trains to check (and no doubt checked more regularly as usual), then it's going to be impossible to run a near normal service

 

[JonathanH]

Anyone else get the feeling that the timetable due next week won't be happening?

Clearly with quite a lot of trains to check (and no doubt checked more regularly as usual), then it's going to be impossible to run a near normal service

The timetable change will still happen. It is just that the times of the cancellations will change.

 

[bengley]

In case anyone was wondering where the affected area is, I made this annotated image.

The issue in April was with the yaw damper mount, this issue is with the area the jacking point is mounted to. As you can see it's all part of the same bolster structure and the bogie is directly attached to it underneath the train

 

[millemille]

While I remember, is the issue affecting the ScotRail Hitachi's related to or different from the 80x issue?

The checking that has found the reported issue has been driven by the 800 series issue, but whether it is the same problem or not remains to be seen.

In situations like this it is often the case that inspections swing wildly in the other direction from normal missing of cracks - understandably - and what is identified as a structural crack actually turns out to be a paint crack or dirt or something equally innocent.

 

[Killingworth]

Days?

Try months or even years.

Exactly, once the initial and then detailed analysis has taken place. My point was even that will take days/weeks and then x months/years to resolve all the issues then revealed.

 

[millemille]

In case anyone was wondering where the affected area is, I made this annotated image.

The issue in April was with the yaw damper mount, this issue is with the area the jacking point is mounted to. As you can see it's all part of the same bolster structure and the bogie is directly attached to it underneath the train

Good work @bengley

 

[millemille]

I note from @bengley's excellent image that the driver's foot step is attached to the same structure. I wonder if all of the cracks have been found on driving vehicles and it's fat drivers that are the problem.....

 

[TRAX]

From The Bash Mash on Twitter.

Picture shows a parodic press statement from "Detachi" (pun on "Hitachi").

 

[bengley]

I note from @bengley's excellent image that the driver's foot step is attached to the same structure. I wonder if all of the cracks have been found on driving vehicles and it's fat drivers that are the problem.....

I wouldn't rule it out

 

[TRAX]

In case anyone was wondering where the affected area is, I made this annotated image.

The issue in April was with the yaw damper mount, this issue is with the area the jacking point is mounted to. As you can see it's all part of the same bolster structure and the bogie is directly attached to it underneath the train

They may be two different problems, but given the proximity of these parts, these two problems really look like they are linked.

 

[hexagon789]

The checking that has found the reported issue has been driven by the 800 series issue, but whether it is the same problem or not remains to be seen.

In situations like this it is often the case that inspections swing wildly in the other direction from normal missing of cracks - understandably - and what is identified as a structural crack actually turns out to be a paint crack or dirt or something equally innocent.

Nevertheless at least they are aware of the issues elsewhere and are checking a 'related' fleet of trains. Again I saw "cracks" mentioned and the mind went straight to thinking how it could be a general issue with Hitachi designs

 

[hwl]

In case anyone was wondering where the affected area is, I made this annotated image.

The issue in April was with the yaw damper mount, this issue is with the area the jacking point is mounted to. As you can see it's all part of the same bolster structure and the bogie is directly attached to it underneath the train

The crack photos were taken with the yaw bracket the opposite way round.

The damper bracket mounting point on that LNER unit is different to the GWR one in the NIR photos. The LNER unit has larger gussets in all 4 places and an extra plate welded to the outside. Is just the drivers cab area different or are the newer units different?

Edit to add: having had a quick check it looks like the mounting points are more heavily engineered on the GWR driving vehicles like the LNER ones, the GWR intermediate vehicles have the the less heavily engineered arrangement in the NIR photos


Intermediate vehicle (lightly engineered)

Driving vehicle (heavily engineered)


Edit to add 2:

The yaw damper brackets are completely different geometry on the intermediate vehicles (much taller) compared to the driving vehicle as there is an extra spacer compared to the driving vehicles.

Presumably the difference is related to the intermediate vehicles having higher floors to accommodate the engine underneath

 

[Bill_Lestrange]

Is this at all related to the Kobe steel scandal of a few years ago? I seem to remember that JR East had to do emergency inspections of the Shinkansen fleet/rails after it was found that a major steel manufacturing company had falsified materials data about the steel.

Would be a shame if it is related, as this scandal emerged in 2018 and possibly ought to have been investigated to see if it affected foreign Hitachi products. Bearing in mind that Hitachi A-train sets run across the world.

I'm happy to accept that it is totally unrelated though. I'm not 100% sure of Hitachi's exact material supply chain.

 

[AdamWW]

Is this at all related to the Kobe steel scandal of a few years ago? I seem to remember that JR East had to do emergency inspections of the Shinkansen fleet/rails after it was found that a major steel manufacturing company had falsified materials data about the steel.

Would be a shame if it is related, as this scandal emerged in 2018 and possibly ought to have been investigated to see if it affected foreign Hitachi products. Bearing in mind that Hitachi A-train sets run across the world.

I'm happy to accept that it is totally unrelated though. I'm not 100% sure of Hitachi's exact material supply chain.

I thought these parts were aluminium.

 

[Bill_Lestrange]

I thought these parts were aluminium.

Kobe steel makes aluminium too. I seem to remember that the scandal involved them falsifying materials data across their product lines. But as I said, being that I don't work in procurement for Hitachi, I have no idea what their supply chain looks like!

 

[millemille]

I thought these parts were aluminium.

They are, but the principle remains the same. As a manufacturer you are reliant on suppliers to supply material that is to specification.

A machine shop who is a supplier to us was telling me last week about a recent job of theirs where the designer specified a particular 7000 series aluminium for a machined part. The machine shop was struggling to source a billet of the correct size and grade, none of their normal suppliers had anything suitable and were sceptical that they could do so. However a stockholder in Birmingham said they did have one. The billet was purchased and duly arrived but didn't have a CofC. Machine shop ring supplier and their initial response was "we don't supply that grade in large billet". "WTF?" says the machine shop "we've got a billet here that you've just delivered and an invoice that says it's that grade!". Silence down the phone and then put on hold and then someone says "yeah, it's the right grade".

At which point the machine shop's spidey sense is tingling and they reject the billet, despite verbal assurances from the stockholder that it's the right stuff.

Remember the class 466 NIR for the failed bolster? The root cause of that was a sub contractor not heat treating the bolster after welding, something that's only detectable with some fairly involved testing and not detectable through normal visual inspection.

Same for assuring a grade of aluminium and any treatment it may have had....

 

[bengley]

The crack photos were taken with the yaw bracket the opposite way round.

The damper bracket mounting point on that LNER unit is different to the GWR one in the NIR photos. The LNER unit has larger gussets in all 4 places and an extra plate welded to the outside. Is just the drivers cab area different or are the newer units different?

Edit to add: having had a quick check it looks like the mounting points are more heavily engineered on the GWR driving vehicles like the LNER ones, the GWR intermediate vehicles have the the less heavily engineered arrangement in the NIR photos


Intermediate vehicle (lightly engineered)
View attachment 95820
Driving vehicle (heavily engineered)
View attachment 95821

Edit to add 2:

The yaw damper brackets are completely different geometry on the intermediate vehicles (much taller) compared to the driving vehicle as there is an extra spacer compared to the driving vehicles.

Presumably the difference is related to the intermediate vehicles having higher floors to accommodate the engine underneath

Yes you are right - I had noticed the driving vehicle mounting points were slightly different, but it was the best example image I could find.

It would be interesting to know whether the driving vehicles are affected.

 

[Jturner98]

Also reported that the class 385 are also affected

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Paddington HSS are being taught 387s, in order to run Paddington-Swindon shuttles.
Risk assessments should be done by the end of this week.

 

[43066]

I note from @bengley's excellent image that the driver's foot step is attached to the same structure. I wonder if all of the cracks have been found on driving vehicles and it's fat drivers that are the problem.....

I think you’ve just... cracked it.

 

[AdamWW]

They are, but the principle remains the same. As a manufacturer you are reliant on suppliers to supply material that is to specification.

Of course. But I was responding to a comment about what was described as a steel manufacturer.

And even if you go in and audit your suppliers, ultimately you still have to rely on them being honest and not making mistakes.

Some colleagues of mine have just had serious problems because a machine shop didn't use the grade of aluminium they were told to. They didn't think it would matter. It did.

I was myself involved in a project a few years ago where electronics parts had to go through accelerated ageing tests. They all passed. The final stage was to cut a few up to look for internal damage that somehow didn't show in their performance.

And it turned out that this revealed that some of them had a step missing in their construction. But we had paperwork for them with the step signed off as having taken place.

So the paperwork for the ones we were planning on using suddenly became somewhat worthless.

 

[sjm77]

Nothing prominent on TPEx's website today. Presumably they are able to operate the planned service.

 

[ScouserGirl]

Nothing prominent on TPEx's website today. Presumably they are able to operate the planned service.

TPE have been pulled again

 

[bengley]

TPE have been pulled again

No they haven't

 

[ScouserGirl]

No they haven't

That's what someone said to me who works there...

 

[hwl]

Yes you are right - I had noticed the driving vehicle mounting points were slightly different, but it was the best example image I could find.

It would be interesting to know whether the driving vehicles are affected.

I've only heard of one inside frame bogie vehicle on a 9car being affect and these have the same bodywork geometry in the bolster area as the other intermediate vehicles.

 

[Highlandspring]

Also reported that the class 385 are also affected

As posted here yesterday. Now 9 units withdrawn from traffic.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are the 395s being inspected too?