Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[TrainTrackJack]

Suggested on another thread that there's one at Exeter New Yard. No idea if that's correct.

800308/031 at Worcester

 

[43172]

Suggested on another thread that there's one at Exeter New Yard. No idea if that's correct.

That is correct. 802016 is the unit that is currently parked up in Exeter New Yard

 

[vicbury]

From a passenger's perspective, with some background in engineering, this whole situation doesn't come as a surprise. I've been on several GWR IET's that have rocked from side to side with a violent impact as it seemed to go beyond the capability of the damper. Reading through this thread, it seems to be a common occurrence.

It will be very interesting to find out, in the fullness of time, what has gone wrong here.

 

[156444]

That is correct. 802016 is the unit that is currently parked up in Exeter New Yard

I believe 802006 is at Oxford.

 

[edwin_m]

This is probably second-guessing the situation, but you would imagine that once Hitacho / Agility have set up the repair workshops they would be selecting the units which require the least attention first, ro speed them through the process, sign them off, and get them back to work. That is assuming the cracks are limited to just one of maybe two vehicles of a set.

Alternately, perhaps Hitachi feel the need to repair every weld under every vehicle, in which case the five car 800/0s and the 9 car 800/1s might be a priority.

That probably depends whether they think the other cars in a unit where some cars have cracks will also start cracking soon, considering that all cars in a unit will have done the same mileage under the same conditions. Also if one of the three designs of bolster is less prone to cracking they may prioritise the crack-prone cars of a unit where more of the cars are of this type. But I don't think we know enough to second-guess Hitachi, and they may not know enough themselves yet.

Another potential problem I see is that any increase in the metal on the outside of the shell in these areas is likely to increase their gauge when running on straight track, in the critical area close to the platform interface. Or is this in the "shadow" of the doorstep?

 

[800001]

Do we know if any of the Azumas are stranded away from depots, a bit like the two at Worcester for GWR

Two are at Lners Clayhills depot, those are the only two.

 

[Gellico]

Unsure if this has been bought up already however way back in 2017, just as the first 800s were entering service a scandal erupted with Kobe metal - the steel supplier to Hitachi, faking quality reports.
"Hitachi said trains exported to the UK were affected, but the trains had not started operating yet" taken from https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-steel-scandal-ford-toyota-honda-mazda-boeing
Obviously at the time Hitachi did whatever mods were required in order to ensure the stock was safe however if the units are not made with the correct materials all the standards on paper will be out with what is on the rails. With the entire GWR fleet being pulled I cannot help but wonder if all 93 units have this dodgy steel forming their superstructure. If the very material the trains are made from is sub-par what would the ultimate outcome be? Could we genuinely be looking at the entire fleet being replaced within the next few years if the problem is found to be endemic?

In no way am I an engineer, a chemist yes, however given the daily mileage and extreme strain certain aspects of the train will go through I am in no way surprised that this has happened if the units have been constructed from cheaper and poorer quality steel alloy. Also why would cracks form around the lifting points of all places, it is worth noting there is another piece of metal attached here which, if is made of stronger alloy will ultimately result in the body near it twisting and ultimately cracking if tolerances are different. I suppose the question is what bit is easier to replace...

I must admit actually finding this info regarding the KOBE scandal and how it would of related to GWR does make me wonder if it has been deliberately kept quiet the past few years and if it does ultimately result in permanent withdrawals the wider implications and scandal could become quite huge.

 

[FGW_DID]

It has been mentioned a few times (along with quite a few other repeat subjects) somewhere in the last 50 odd pages!

 

[father_jack]

Just a note I don't moderate this particular forum, so wasn't me! The teams that managed the CIS and timetable systems were probably trying to organise everything overnight.

No problem !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2021 ==

To return to the "gnashing of teeth" surrounding the south west to London and vice versa, an early look at tomorrow's plan sees a 1314 and 1650 Plymouth to Paddington diverted to and terminating at Bristol TM after Taunton and also a 1020, 1315 and 1520 Bristol TM to Plymouth, not in Real-time yet and no indication of motive power class or TOC. All subject to change of course.

(@Horizon22 you deleted my post before I had a chance to answer last night, trains were removed and reinstated half hour later....)

Quoting my own post but there are other trains too in the same area and it will be Castle HSTs.

 

[irish_rail]

Looks like 70 sets to be back in service on GWR later this week , enough to provide a near full service with a little additional 387 working.
So all these extra HST , mk3s mk2s etc may stand down!.

 

[Gellico]

It has been mentioned a few times (along with quite a few other repeat subjects) somewhere in the last 50 odd pages!

Oh lol

 

[RPI]

Looks like 70 sets to be back in service on GWR later this week , enough to provide a near full service with a little additional 387 working.
So all these extra HST , mk3s mk2s etc may stand down!.

We'll look forward to all the 5v10's then haha

 

[fgwrich]

The LSL Set was only likely to be a very last resort standby anyway - there's a reason why it's in that formation, and unless LSL allow Laira to modify the jumpers, it will have to stay that way to work with any other PC.

And yes, it is looking likely more sets will re-enter traffic this week. Subject to reviews by Ricardo Rail.

 

[irish_rail]

We'll look forward to all the 5v10's then haha

Indeed going to be an interesting summer. God bless those 5 car sets!

 

[southern442]

I received an email from GWR today, I have booked to go from Southampton to Cardiff tomorrow, but the email was

'advising customers with tickets for long-distance services not to attempt travel tomorrow'

Obviously my service isn't due to be an IEP but they may be re-jigging turbo's around, am I safe?

 

[fgwrich]

I received an email from GWR today, I have booked to go from Southampton to Cardiff tomorrow, but the email was

'advising customers with tickets for long-distance services not to attempt travel tomorrow'

Obviously my service isn't due to be an IEP but they may be re-jigging turbo's around, am I safe?

Likely that the Turbo will either be 2 or 3 car vice 5 - and will be busier as a result. A fair number of Turbo's covering IET diagrams at the moment like Swindon - Gloucester / Cheltenham for example.

 

[HST274]

Looks like 70 sets to be back in service on GWR later this week , enough to provide a near full service with a little additional 387 working.
So all these extra HST , mk3s mk2s etc may stand down!.

Just wondering what your source was?(If you can say of course)
-Robert

 

[YorksLad12]

So according to one story in a York newspaper, you conclude it’s a PR disaster? How many people read York newspapers. I lived in York for years, and never did!

And, as I keep saying, it's not a PR disaster. Some reputational damage for Hitachi/Agility/DfT but not for the operators.

 

[southern442]

Likely that the Turbo will either be 2 or 3 car vice 5 - and will be busier as a result. A fair number of Turbo's covering IET diagrams at the moment like Swindon - Gloucester / Cheltenham for example.

That's fine by me, I'm not sure how busy those services are at the moment, but I'm travelling in the middle of the day so fingers crossed it'll be alright.

 

[GLC]

Is this issue something that would be of interest to RAIB, or is it outwith their brief? Their website states they investigate accidents and incidents from which something can be learned, which I’m not sure if that would apply exactly here

 

[fgwrich]

Is this issue something that would be of interest to RAIB, or is it outwith their brief? Their website states they investigate accidents and incidents from which something can be learned, which I’m not sure if that would apply exactly here

I don't believe so, although I may be wrong. I do believe this whole business will be reviewed by a consortium of Ricardo Rail (acting on behalf of GWR, LNER, TPE, HT) Hitachi, The DfT and the ORR though.

 

[800001]

Just wondering what your source was?(If you can say of course)
-Robert

Lner, her, ORR, DFT, Hitachi and a few others all met at North Pole depot to look at and understand in more detail the issues.
There it was agreed what mitigations could be out on place to allow sets with cracks to re-enter service.
This is still waiting to be signed off By ORR, but that is hopeful for tomorrow.

 

[AdamWW]

I received an email from GWR today, I have booked to go from Southampton to Cardiff tomorrow, but the email was

'advising customers with tickets for long-distance services not to attempt travel tomorrow'

Obviously my service isn't due to be an IEP but they may be re-jigging turbo's around, am I safe?

I don't know the context but maybe when they say "Long distance services" they're referring to the high speed services out of London, not "cross-country" routes even if they are quite long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a passenger's perspective, with some background in engineering, this whole situation doesn't come as a surprise. I've been on several GWR IET's that have rocked from side to side with a violent impact as it seemed to go beyond the capability of the damper. Reading through this thread, it seems to be a common occurrence.

It will be very interesting to find out, in the fullness of time, what has gone wrong here.

Units hitting bump stops are not entirely unusual. I mentioned upthread that for basically most of the 1980s and 1990s, Merseyrail units (also ally) were bouncing off the bump stops at every single rail joint between Kirkdale and Walton in both directions due to the rough old bullhead jointed rail that wasn't replaced until the late 90s. If that alone would cause cracks, those would have been falling apart, too.

There is probably more to this than that. I find the suggestion of incorrectly-specified alloy interesting and possibly relevant.

 

[43 302]

Just wondering what your source was?(If you can say of course)
-Robert

I can confirm. Should be decided by tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Steve Harris]

Unsure if this has been bought up already however way back in 2017, just as the first 800s were entering service a scandal erupted with Kobe metal - the steel supplier to Hitachi, faking quality reports.
"Hitachi said trains exported to the UK were affected, but the trains had not started operating yet" taken from https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-steel-scandal-ford-toyota-honda-mazda-boeing
Obviously at the time Hitachi did whatever mods were required in order to ensure the stock was safe however if the units are not made with the correct materials all the standards on paper will be out with what is on the rails. With the entire GWR fleet being pulled I cannot help but wonder if all 93 units have this dodgy steel forming their superstructure. If the very material the trains are made from is sub-par what would the ultimate outcome be? Could we genuinely be looking at the entire fleet being replaced within the next few years if the problem is found to be endemic?

In no way am I an engineer, a chemist yes, however given the daily mileage and extreme strain certain aspects of the train will go through I am in no way surprised that this has happened if the units have been constructed from cheaper and poorer quality steel alloy. Also why would cracks form around the lifting points of all places, it is worth noting there is another piece of metal attached here which, if is made of stronger alloy will ultimately result in the body near it twisting and ultimately cracking if tolerances are different. I suppose the question is what bit is easier to replace...

As @FGW_DID has already said, this has been mentioned before... and that the bodyshells are made out of Aluminium and not Steel !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2021 ==

Units hitting bump stops are not entirely unusual. I mentioned upthread that for basically most of the 1980s and 1990s, Merseyrail units (also ally) were bouncing off the bump stops at every single rail joint between Kirkdale and Walton in both directions due to the rough old bullhead jointed rail that wasn't replaced until the late 90s. If that alone would cause cracks, those would have been falling apart, too.

There is probably more to this than that. I find the suggestion of incorrectly-specified alloy interesting and possibly relevant.

I'm like you, I think incorrectly supplied material or incorrect specification may be relevant. But at the moment it's just one of a couple of specalitve thoughts I have.
As the old saying(s) go.. it will all come out in the wash / the truth will come out in the end. But right now we just need to wait and see.. So I think it might be a good idea to leave it there (until at least we know more).

 

[Horizon22]

Just wondering what your source was?(If you can say of course)
-Robert

I've heard similar rumblings coming from the local driver's council but nothing yet confirmed, although hopefully imminent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't sound implausible. Once you have a handle on how fast the cracks might grow (there are calculations for this) and when they would cause a bit to fall off (and it is, it seems, an issue of a bit falling off and hitting people, not a bit falling off and causing a train crash) then you can put in place a programme of inspection to put some back in service with the cracking still going on.

To the layman crack = dangerous, but cracks and corrosion are accepted and monitored in lots of contexts, e.g. bridges.

Of course, you still need to work on a fix, otherwise over a period of time all the units will be back out of service due to the cracks being too large.

 

[Steve Harris]

Is this issue something that would be of interest to RAIB, or is it outwith their brief? Their website states they investigate accidents and incidents from which something can be learned, which I’m not sure if that would apply exactly here

I don't work on the railway but I if it isn't in the RIAB brief I would imagine that whoever sets the standards that trains are built to will want to have a look at why this has happened and if any specifications/standards will need amending going forward.

 

[43096]

The LSL Set was only likely to be a very last resort standby anyway - there's a reason why it's in that formation, and unless LSL allow Laira to modify the jumpers, it will have to stay that way to work with any other PC.

And yes, it is looking likely more sets will re-enter traffic this week. Subject to reviews by Ricardo Rail.

Ah.... I hadn’t twigged they had acquired one of the sets with modified jumpers at the outer ends. Not the smartest acquisition as they’re not compatible with LSL’s own power cars let alone GWR’s. If I was LSL I’d be delighted if GWR would swap the sockets!