Entire Network Rail Commercial Property portfolio for sale

[yorksrob]

A disastrous decision that will long be regretted.

But what else could one expect from the "free market" cheerleaders who've appropriated the country for the last forty years.

It will be cheering to know that when I buy my cup of tea at the station, I will be propping up a foreign sovereign wealth fund, rather than supporting the upkeep of the railway.

These are the actions of our patriotic Tory party.

 

[pdeaves]

Along with Ebbsfleet International and Stratford International.

The difference there is that NR doesn't manage them, whereas it does manage St Pancras.

 

[EM2]

The difference there is that NR doesn't manage them, whereas it does manage St Pancras.

Yes they do. In fact, NR staff can cover all three stations.

 

[tspaul26]

Who owns the buildings in Scotland?

At a guess, the Scottish Government, or at least they have a say in the matter and they do not agree to the perceived benefit of flogging of such important assets.

It may well be the case that it's being undertaken in two tranches - simply because property law is different in Scotland anyway.

I suspect that Network Rail will be seeking to demise very long leaseholds for the English estate (e.g. 999 years).

By comparison, a commercial lease may not exceed a term of 175 years in Scotland so it would not be possible to take the same approach.

 

[WatcherZero]

Funding for Network Rail in Scotland is provided by the Scottish Government rather than Dft, Scottish Government has simply not asked them to sell their property to raise spending cash.

 

[gareth950]

Would it be possible for a future left wing Labour government to undo this once it's done? (Without it costing hundreds of millions?)

 

[tspaul26]

Would it be possible for a future left wing Labour government to undo this once it's done? (Without it costing hundreds of millions?)

Possible, but very difficult and very unlikely.

Good for the lawyers though, so I'm more than happy for them to try.

 

[bussnapperwm]

This is not a sustainable argument. Stations like York and Newcastle manage just fine being managed by one TOC, despite being served by many.

Of the 18 stations that Network Rail manages 4 are 100% for one operator. Of the remaining 14, it's pretty obvious who should be managing 10 (Reading, Bristol TM, Paddington - all GWR; Victoria and London Bridge - both GTR; Kings Cross - VTEC; Euston and Man P - VT; and Edinburgh and Glasgow C - both ScotRail) given that one operator dominates. For three (Birmingham NS, Leeds, Liverpool LS) it's less obvious. And there's one (St Pancras) that NR doesn't own anyway.

It would make far more sense to have a TOC (or maybe "National Rail") sign at the entrance, rather than a sign up at the entrance saying "Managed by Network Rail". This makes no sense to customers, they don't buy anything from Network Rail.

Network Rail should be invisible, not trying to have a customer presence.

For Birmingham New Street, in my opinion it should be Transport for West Midlands, just like they should be for all WMCA area station

 

[Starmill]

As I understand it, when assets are sold the money is paid to the Treasury. Have we yet had a guarantee that they will be spending it (all of it) on railway projects? I don't think we have. Perhaps we should be paying attention to this in the Budget?

 

[Starmill]

As for who-operates-what there are a number of oddities. Some of them are political, like Dunbar and Lockerbie being managed by ScotRail, and some of them are historical, like Alnmouth and Chester-le-Street being managed by Northern. I have always thought it a bit strange that Macclesfield is managed by Virgin Trains rather than Northern and that Alsager and Kidsgrove are managed by East Midlands Trains. Chester is managed by Arriva Trains Wales seemingly without problems. Presumably Batley will continue to be managed by Northern even though they're going to stop serving it.

Importantly, changing things just for the sake of it, or for neatness is unlikely to be cost effective in this regard.

 

[philthetube]

one thing not mentioned on this thread is that there is no mention of the terms or length of the lease, there will be ground rent to pay and if the deal is well set up could be financially advantageous. also depending on length of lease it could all be availble to do again in 20 years. (still don't like the idea though).

 

[daodao]

I have always thought it a bit strange that Macclesfield is managed by Virgin Trains rather than Northern and that Alsager and Kidsgrove are managed by East Midlands Trains.

3 tph call at Macclesfield, each run by different operators, of which the longest is that run by VTWC. Previously the XC service was run by VT, so it is understandable that VT is the station operator.

3 tph call at Kidsgrove, each run by different operators, and 2 tph call at Alsager, both run by different operators, but the Crewe-Derby route is an EMT franchise and is the longest running of the post-privatisation routes through these 2 stations, so it is natural that EMT is the operator.

 

[ChrisHogan]

For Birmingham New Street, in my opinion it should be Transport for West Midlands, just like they should be for all WMCA area station

TfWM couldn't even manage to run the new Bromsgrove station as it wanted to, and had to go "cap-in-hand" to LM to run it for them. No doubt the cost of a Safety Case (or whatever it's now called) and a Station Licence forced its retreat from being a Station Facility Owner.

 

[pdeaves]

Yes they do. In fact, NR staff can cover all three stations.

According to NRE, St Pancras is operated by NR (which accords with NR's station licence) but Ebbsfleet and Stratford International are Southeastern (I thought the latter were still Eurostar so some further research on my part is necessary; I haven't found these stations on the Southeastern licence (yet!)).

 

[Moonshot]

one thing not mentioned on this thread is that there is no mention of the terms or length of the lease, there will be ground rent to pay and if the deal is well set up could be financially advantageous. also depending on length of lease it could all be availble to do again in 20 years. (still don't like the idea though).

What is also not mentioned is the fact that the staff in NRs property department will no longer be a cost to employer.....as always , someone has done the sums and had plans approved at board level. Im suprised no one mentioned the fact that the asset that is HS1 is already in the hands of private sector captial albeit on a 30year concession.

 

[tspaul26]

one thing not mentioned on this thread is that there is no mention of the terms or length of the lease, there will be ground rent to pay and if the deal is well set up could be financially advantageous. also depending on length of lease it could all be availble to do again in 20 years. (still don't like the idea though).

My view is that short leases with twenty years term are unlikely to be granted. The stated objective is to divest the management of the non-core estate, so it is more likely that the strategy will be to realise a high premium with a peppercorn rent.

 

[EM2]

According to NRE, St Pancras is operated by NR (which accords with NR's station licence) but Ebbsfleet and Stratford International are Southeastern (I thought the latter were still Eurostar so some further research on my part is necessary; I haven't found these stations on the Southeastern licence (yet!)).

As someone who has worked at Ebbsfleet for two years and St Pancras for eight, please take it from me that they are all managed by Network Rail (High Speed) and come under the same management team.

 

[WatcherZero]

My house is a leasehold from the old bowls clubs next door, we pay a grand total of £1 a year in rent.

 

[snowball]

My house is a leasehold from the old bowls clubs next door, we pay a grand total of £1 a year in rent.

But are you safe from the threat summarised in post #10?

 

[tspaul26]

But are you safe from the threat summarised in post #10?

That will depend on any rent review provisions in the lease.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres also a tribunal service that offers protection and a few legal protections for residentials. They can only charge you for services provided, you have the right to buy it out or extend it (at a nationally set rate) and you have first refusal if its being sold. For Commmercial I believe you can call in the Government to provide an independent valuation.

 

[Sybic26]

The press release refers to commercial properties. I would suggest that this does not mean that NR will sell their ownership of stations to another entity.

The press release specifically refers to such locations as archway underneath the railway.
I would suggest that that another company may look after commercial outlets which are currently leased by NR to for instance W H Smiths, coffee shops and other commercial outlets.

 

[pdeaves]

Presumably Batley will continue to be managed by Northern even though they're going to stop serving it.

Do you have any further information about this please? When? Alternative service provider (TPE?)? Thanks!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wow. I do love this government, they are very long sighted and seem to always have our futures secure.

 

[380101]

Do you have any reference for the non-NR ownership, please? (Not disbelieving you, just like to trace back to source). Certainly the Prestwick Airport SFO (station facility operator) is the airport company.

Prestwick Airport station is owned an operated by the airport operating company. All the signage on the platforms are airport company signs. It doesn't fall under SQUIRE and is in a pretty poor condition that wouldn't be tolerated under Scotrail- even a cash strapped Abellio would have the weeds removed from between the platform slabs!

 

[WatcherZero]

The press release refers to commercial properties. I would suggest that this does not mean that NR will sell their ownership of stations to another entity.

The press release specifically refers to such locations as archway underneath the railway.
I would suggest that that another company may look after commercial outlets which are currently leased by NR to for instance W H Smiths, coffee shops and other commercial outlets.

They are selling their commercial property holdings, that's arches, office blocks, commercial car parks, warehouse space, retail property (not the stations themselves) etc. Of the 5000 properties in England and Wales around 50% are arches. Around 500 properties in England and Wales are being held back from this sale where they have an operational use or are too impractical to sell.

 

[Starmill]

3 tph call at Kidsgrove, each run by different operators, and 2 tph call at Alsager, both run by different operators, but the Crewe-Derby route is an EMT franchise and is the longest running of the post-privatisation routes through these 2 stations, so it is natural that EMT is the opeartor.

There are lots of cases where things like train length and who won the initial franchises at privatisation are completely irrelevant. The staff who work at Kidsgrove are very remote from any other EMT stations.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

3 tph call at Macclesfield, each run by different operators, of which the longest is that run by VTWC. Previously the XC service was run by VT, so it is understandable that VT is the station operator.

3 tph call at Kidsgrove, each run by different operators, and 2 tph call at Alsager, both run by different operators, but the Crewe-Derby route is an EMT franchise and is the longest running of the post-privatisation routes through these 2 stations, so it is natural that EMT is the operator.

At Alsager, London Midland is a new service, previously only EMT called.
At Kidsgrove, London midland is a new service and Northern hourly service was for many years peak only (since 1993 or so). EMT was the obvious choice therefore as the provider of the majority of services at the time these things were shared out.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Wow. I do love this government, they are very long sighted and seem to always have our futures secure.

They say a week is a long time in politics. I suggest a day is an eternity for the current May administration.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There are lots of cases where things like train length and who won the initial franchises at privatisation are completely irrelevant. The staff who work at Kidsgrove are very remote from any other EMT stations.

Easily solved. Re-staff Alsager, Longport and Longton!