(Entirely) new railway lines

[Glenn1969]

Or a Calder Valley line Todmorden bypass from Sowerby Bridge to Littleborough via the old Ripponden branch?

 

[southern442]

Exactly, a route following the recently rebuilt A14 would make more sense, reusing an existing corridor and joining the ECML south of Huntingdon

I'd say a route following the A14 could go further than that, to Rugby connecting with the WCML, to give a faster line from east-west than the current Birmingham to Cambridge.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or a Calder Valley line Todmorden bypass from Sowerby Bridge to Littleborough via the old Ripponden branch?

This was once proposed, wasn't it, back in the day? Any reason why the Ripponden branch line never got any further West than Rishworth?

 

[Glenn1969]

Think they ran out of money?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Or a Calder Valley line Todmorden bypass from Sowerby Bridge to Littleborough via the old Ripponden branch?

Yes please, or maybe a new alignment in a tunnel starting around Triangle ?

 

[Tobbes]

Or a Chelmsford avoiding line to provide two fast lines Colchester northwards. The avoiding line would either sweep south of Chelmsford like the A12 or could tunnel under the town.

 

[billio]

Or a Calder Valley line Todmorden bypass from Sowerby Bridge to Littleborough via the old Ripponden branch?

A more or less straight route from Littleborough would a good idea, but I would keep the eastern part fairly high, crossing the Calder Valley on a high level bridge (avoiding Sowerby Bridge) then through a tunnel into Halifax.

 

[muddythefish]

Exactly, a route following the recently rebuilt A14 would make more sense, reusing an existing corridor and joining the ECML south of Huntingdon

Daventry - Wellingborough - Huntingdon - Cambridge - Felixstowe following roughly the line of the A14 and A45 would provide a direct route for container traffic from the huge new logistics complex near Rugby to Felixstowe

Won't happen of course but if you were building a modern freight railway from scratch that would be the best route

 

[Tobbes]

Daventry - Wellingborough - Huntingdon - Cambridge - Felixstowe following roughly the line of the A14 and A45 would provide a direct route for container traffic from the huge new logistics complex near Rugby to Felixstowe

Won't happen of course but if you were building a modern freight railway from scratch that would be the best route

In fairness most of those links have existed at one time or another.....

 

[A0wen]

In fairness most of those links have existed at one time or another.....

Erm, not really.

Daventry was only linked to Weedon on the WCML, there wasn't a through route to Northampton.

Northampton - Wellingborough existed, but Wellingborough - Huntingdon didn't.

Wellingborough - Peterborough existed as did Kettering - Huntingdon and they crossed at Thrapston but I don't think were ever linked. Kettering - Huntingdon was a pre-Beeching closure, very lightly used.

Huntingdon - Cambridge sort of existed it was more St Ives to Cambridge, which we know is now the busway and Cambridge - Felixstowe still exists, but isn't suitable for freight due to capacity and clearance around Newmarket.

 

[Tobbes]

Erm, not really.

Daventry was only linked to Weedon on the WCML, there wasn't a through route to Northampton.

Northampton - Wellingborough existed, but Wellingborough - Huntingdon didn't.

Wellingborough - Peterborough existed as did Kettering - Huntingdon and they crossed at Thrapston but I don't think were ever linked. Kettering - Huntingdon was a pre-Beeching closure, very lightly used.

Huntingdon - Cambridge sort of existed it was more St Ives to Cambridge, which we know is now the busway and Cambridge - Felixstowe still exists, but isn't suitable for freight due to capacity and clearance around Newmarket.

Fair enough. I do agree that a direct line would be a good idea - the more containers off the roads the better from my perspective

 

[A0wen]

Fair enough. I do agree that a direct line would be a good idea - the more containers off the roads the better from my perspective

Well TBF there is a pretty good link between Felixstowe and DIRFT already - via Ely, Peterborough, Nuneaton.

The bit people seem to forget is twofold: Not all traffic from Felixstowe goes to DIRFT and not all traffic to DIRFT comes from Felixstowe - a good amount comes from Tilbury and Southampton, neither of which would be improved by such a link.

There are plans to improve the link between Felixstowe and DIRFT already - Werrington is part of that so are the planned improvements at Ely.

A direct line probably wouldn't be viable - if you followed the A14 corridor beyond Huntingdon there has only ever been limited passenger demand along that flow, at least a limited demand that any form of public transport has been able to fulfil - and that's not likely to change.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A Dawlish avoiding line between Exeter and Plymouth has been suggested several times.

That was my first thought on seeing this thread. However I'm thinking more of a 100-125 mph direct Exeter-Plymouth line with the primary purpose being be to reduce journey times (both for Exeter-Plymouth commuting and for better linking Cornwall to the rest of the country), rather than something whose primary purpose is to avoid Dawlish. That would imply something with significant tunnelling under Dartmoor, and also by-passing Newton Abbot and Totnes.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

That was my first thought on seeing this thread. However I'm thinking more of a 100-125 mph direct Exeter-Plymouth line with the primary purpose being be to reduce journey times (both for Exeter-Plymouth commuting and for better linking Cornwall to the rest of the country), rather than something whose primary purpose is to avoid Dawlish. That would imply something with significant tunnelling under Dartmoor, and also by-passing Newton Abbot and Totnes.

I agree. In my opinion, it would be insane to build a Dawlish avoiding line which did not also facilitate at least 100 mph between Exeter and Plymouth. The only question is whether it would go via Newton Abbot or in a straight line with a separate spur to Newton Abbot.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Exeter-Plymouth came up before - I got shot down for suggesting the current line wasn't good enough when all I wanted to do was straighten some bits & move a station. If you're building new though you'd want to go at least to Taunton - I suspect it wouldn't be very hard to speed up Taunton-Bristol if you wanted, it's flat & straight most of the way. Alternatively head for Bournemouth/Southampton & then go for OOC or something along those lines.

Regarding Exeter-Taunton - depends a bit how much you want to go with money-no-object crayonista-ing:

• Plymouth-Exeter currently takes about an hour to go (as the crow flies) about 35 miles.
• Exeter-Taunton currently takes 25 minutes to go about 27 miles.

That says to me that a new line Plymouth-Exeter would make much more difference to journey times than a new line Exeter-Taunton, hence why I'd probably only build west of Exeter.

If you're thinking, going up to Bristol: That currently takes 30-40 minutes to go about 37 miles (as the crow flies) on the fastest trains - so again a new line wouldn't make as much difference to journey times as Exeter-Plymouth would. Also, there are fewer long-distance trains to benefit from a new-build there, since you've lost the London-West Country trains (unless you're planning to lengthen their route by running them via Bristol).

 

[alistairlees]

The north east has the lowest rail usage of any region, and poor rail services (with the exception of the ECML from Newcastle to Darlington). There needs to be:
- Newcastle to Middlesbrough (could be one of several routes)
- Middlesbrough to Hartlepool (under the Tees)
- Sunderland to Darlington

all on new alignments, to completely transform rail travel (by making it massively better than car alternatives, rather than the poor relation it is currently) for all these routes

 

[southern442]

The north east has the lowest rail usage of any region, and poor rail services (with the exception of the ECML from Newcastle to Darlington). There needs to be:
- Newcastle to Middlesbrough (could be one of several routes)
- Middlesbrough to Hartlepool (under the Tees)
- Sunderland to Darlington

all on new alignments, to completely transform rail travel (by making it massively better than car alternatives, rather than the poor relation it is currently) for all these routes

There could be a whole new thread about sorting the north-east out. Such large towns each with one or two railway stations, it is a shame. Stockton is bigger than Crewe but could only dream of a service level like Crewe's.

I think that the current proposals in the area do not go far enough. Okay, opening the Ashington and Leamside lines again is a good start, but what is also needed is many more suburban and high speed services, and links to the New Town centres.

 

[tbtc]

I'm liking the idea of a fast route west of Exeter - that seems to be starting with the problem (slow services from Cornwall/ Plymouth to the rest of England, long distance trains stuck behind Paignton stoppers etc) and coming up with a solution (rather than the predictable thing of starting off with your solution (Okahampton to Tavistock) and working backwards to find a problem that will give you the answer that you want

- Newcastle to Middlesbrough (could be one of several routes)
-

Yeah, they have a terrible service - one Sprinter per hour taking around ninety minutes - compare that to Newcastle - Leeds - a much longer distance but three trains per hour which also take around ninety minutes (and much better/ longer trains too)

I don't know how you solve the problem (given that a "fast" Leamside comes at the expense of a "Metro" Leamside), but they are two places that are very poorly linked right now

- Sunderland to Darlington

Again , a terrible service at the moment - an hourly Darlington - Hartlepool - Sunderland service would be a good starting point (given how poor the service is from the Durham Coast to the southern ECML)

I suggested a Chester le Street - Sunderland line earlier on in the thread - something ought to be done to improve Sunderland's links to the rest of the country

 

[southern442]

I don't know how you solve the problem (given that a "fast" Leamside comes at the expense of a "Metro" Leamside), but they are two places that are very poorly linked right now

Off-topic ever so slightly, but not necessarily - it could theoretically be possible to have a two-track mainline with both fast and stopping services. Several lines cope fairly well with 2tph fast, 2tph slow, with maybe a passing loop or two.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

(Newcastle-Middlesbrough)

Yeah, they have a terrible service - one Sprinter per hour taking around ninety minutes - compare that to Newcastle - Leeds - a much longer distance but three trains per hour which also take around ninety minutes (and much better/ longer trains too)

I don't know how you solve the problem (given that a "fast" Leamside comes at the expense of a "Metro" Leamside), but they are two places that are very poorly linked right now

Yeah, just looked at the timetable: 20 minutes to get from Middlesbrough to Billingham - an as-the-crow-flies distance of about 2.5 miles! That must surely rank as one of the slowest journeys you can make on a direct train anywhere in the country! Unfortunately, I fear the most plausible solution is off-topic for this thread: Looking at the map, there appears to be in existing line (I assume, a freight line?) that looks like it connects the ECML near Ferryhill to the triangular junction just West of Billingham. I would imagine upgrading that for passenger use with a decent linespeed (along with capacity enhancements on the ECML) would be the cheapest way to get a decent Newcastle-Middlesbrough service - with the added benefit of linking Durham to Stockton and Middlesbrough.

As an alternative (that is partially on-topic) maybe you could build a direct line from Middlesbrough to Seaton Carew, and combine that with linespeed improvements between there and Newcastle. However that looks a very difficult project - I can't see an easy route that the new line could take, plus you'd run into capacity issues between Sunderland and Newcastle, probably requiring 4-tracking to separate off the Newcastle metro trains - God knows how hard that'd be!

 

[EastisECML]

I think all Newcastle to Sunderland needs is to reduce the headways currently insisted upon between metros and heavyrail trains. It's currently something like twice more than it needs to be I believe? You could probably comfortably run four metros and four heavy rail services per hour in each direction. Maybe this will happen when the new Stadler trains arrive. Also rebuild Sunderland station to four platforms as it used to be.

I think if the North East could separate inter city services from local and freight it would make a big difference. A new line from Darlington to Newcastle, four tracking to Killingworth and then another new line to Alnmouth with all terminus platforms at Newcastle central extended into through platforms would allow traffic to flow more freely.

And Middlesbrough and Sunderland could be made a lot more accessible with a new line from Northallerton direct to Middlesbrough alongside the A19 and then over to Hartlepool. This way all TPE/NPR, LNER and GC services can serve Middlesbrough, Hartlepool and Sunderland. That or just build a branch from the new Darlington-Newcastle line to Sunderland.

I'd also like to see a couple of cut offs on the Tyne Valley line to closely follow the A69. An extension of the Bishop Auckland line to Durham and a new Consett-Stanley-Annfield Plain-Newcastle line.

 

[Irascible]

Regarding Exeter-Taunton - depends a bit how much you want to go with money-no-object crayonista-ing:

• Plymouth-Exeter currently takes about an hour to go (as the crow flies) about 35 miles.
• Exeter-Taunton currently takes 25 minutes to go about 27 miles.

That says to me that a new line Plymouth-Exeter would make much more difference to journey times than a new line Exeter-Taunton, hence why I'd probably only build west of Exeter.

If you're thinking, going up to Bristol: That currently takes 30-40 minutes to go about 37 miles (as the crow flies) on the fastest trains - so again a new line wouldn't make as much difference to journey times as Exeter-Plymouth would. Also, there are fewer long-distance trains to benefit from a new-build there, since you've lost the London-West Country trains (unless you're planning to lengthen their route by running them via Bristol).

Exeter-Taunton is constrained by the Culm valley being pretty twisty, and flood issues all the way down the Exe ( and the Culm, sometimes ) so there's a bit more to think about than just journey times ( also there's more stops between Exeter & Plymouth! ). I think it'd be relatively easy to speed up most of Bristol-Taunton to 125 which by itself wouldn't do much, but if you add up improvements through all three sections it might. Would be for NESW trains mostly though, I doubt there's even room to run SW-Padd via Bristol these days.

But yes agreed Exeter-Plymouth is in most need something ( actually Cowley Bridge is in most need of flood work, but that doesn't involve drawing lines )

 

[A0wen]

I'd say a route following the A14 could go further than that, to Rugby connecting with the WCML, to give a faster line from east-west than the current Birmingham to Cambridge.

But doesn't serve anywhere en route.

The old Kettering-Huntingdon line was a pre Beeching closure.

Not sure why following the A14 is important though ? Surely better to look at the destinations of the freight from Felixstowe and work from there? The HGVs using the A14 aren't heading for Birmingham, they are heading for the M1 or M6 to go from there. Interestingly there were coach services from Cambridge to Birmingham when the A14 opened, run by Premier Travel, long withdrawn because they weren't well used.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Okay, so I do have a few ideas for a bunch of rail companies in the South East, so here we go:

New c2c single track branch line between Benfleet and Canvey Island. Usually will be 2 trains per hour in each direction. Benfleet may need to be rebuilt, but that is about it, as well as a limited service to Fenchurch Street.

Greater Anglia new branch between Chelmsford and Maldon. Serving Great Baddow, Danbury, Hazeleigh, and Maldon. Occasional peak hour services to and from Liverpool Street.

New Greater Anglia branch between Colchester and Mersea. Serving Colchester South (near Colchester Town), Berechurch, Abberton, Peldon and Mersea.

New LNWR branch between Tring and Luton Airport Parkway. Calling at Pitstone, Eddlesborough, Whipsnade, Dunstable, Skimpot, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway.

Docklands Light Railway extension from Gallions Reach to Romford/Abbey Wood, calling at:
Gallions Reach/Beckton (Special service), Beckton Riverside, Creekmouth, Barking Riverside...

Abbey Wood Branch:
Barking Riverside, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood.

Romford Branch:
Barking Riverside, Goresbrook, Dagenham Dock, Dagenham Park, Dagenham East, Eastbrook, Rush Green, Romford.

Opening of Becontree Heath Station on the Elizabeth Line, between Chadwell Heath and Romford.

 

[zwk500]

New LNWR branch between Tring and Luton Airport Parkway. Calling at Pitstone, Eddlesborough, Whipsnade, Dunstable, Skimpot, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway.

First of all, Luton-Dunstable had a railway so this isn't entirely new. 2nd (related) question is what happens to the Busway? 3rd question is why a Heavy rail link when the existing 99 MK-Luton Airport bus is reasonably well-used and provides more than enough capacity. None of the settlements (they're not really towns) west of Dunstable are anything like big enough to sustain a rail link. EWR will provide a WCML-MML link far close to far more people than Tring.

Abbey Wood Branch:
Barking Riverside, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood.

Does this give such a benefit that crossrail doesn't that it's worth yet another crossing of the thames in this area?

 

[BritishGuy54]

Does this give such a benefit that crossrail doesn't that it's worth yet another crossing of the thames in this area?

Well, there were plans to extend the Overground to Abbey Wood, and TfL are planning to extend the DLR, skipping Barking Riverside. But this may be the best option.

It’s cheap, gives Thamesmead a better link than straight to Gallions Reach, and also a railway crossing on the east end of the Thames, connecting the c2c/District Line to Southeastern Services.

 

[zwk500]

It’s cheap, gives Thamesmead a better link than straight to Gallions Reach, and also a railway crossing on the east end of the Thames, connecting the c2c/District Line to Southeastern Services.

It's a tunnel under the thames. It isn't going to be cheap, not by any stretch of the imagination. Do people want to make the additional journeys offered by this connection? It's not as if Barking or Abbey Wood have a massive amount to draw passengers in, nor do they facilitate massive amounts of interchange opportunities.

 

[grove]

Daventry was only linked to Weedon on the WCML, there wasn't a through route to Northampton.

There was a Parliamentary Bill for Northampton to Weedon as an extension from Northampton St Johns in 1885, but it had been proposed as early as 1870. The LNWR built the Northampton loop in the meantime. Even railway mania was not going to fund a second line to the WCML.

 

[Bald Rick]

New c2c single track branch line between Benfleet and Canvey Island. Usually will be 2 trains per hour in each direction. Benfleet may need to be rebuilt, but that is about it, as well as a limited service to Fenchurch Street.

Greater Anglia new branch between Chelmsford and Maldon. Serving Great Baddow, Danbury, Hazeleigh, and Maldon. Occasional peak hour services to and from Liverpool Street.

Which existing services into Fenchurch St / Liverpool St are you going to cancel to make space for these?

New LNWR branch between Tring and Luton Airport Parkway. Calling at Pitstone, Eddlesborough, Whipsnade, Dunstable, Skimpot, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway.

I don’t know if you have ever cycled from Edlesborough to Whipsnade, but there’s the small matter of the legendary Bison Hill en route. So, as well as having to buy land off the National Trust, you’d need a rack railway.

 

[dan4291]

Links to Heathrow allowing intercity trains from the ECML, WCML and a chord off the GWML allowing direct trains from pretty much all over the country to the UK's busiest international airport, and vice versa.