Erasing "wrong-uns" from history

[Howardh]

Maybe they’ll be able to generate a generic AI version of the perfect BBC presenter in the future to replace all the dodgy ex BBC types, so that we can watch the announcement you mentioned above plus various episodes of Top of the Pops and It’s a Knockout (I’m actually only half joking here).

The good news about It's A Knockout - at least the international heats "Jeux Sans Frontieres" were covered by at least seven blocks of commentators, the "home" ones and those commentating from boxes at the stadium.

So plenty of international heats exist (on youtube mainly) where the only commentary available isn't English so while we may be missing Eddie Waring, the other one is absent too. Many heats don't exist now in BBC archives, but clearly thanks to the internet and video machines, they exist elsewhere!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well some acts are cooler than others and get away with stuff others were destroyed for.

Bill Wyman *cough*

Wasn't she only about 14 years old?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Wasn't she only about 14 years old?

Indeed. Later,according to Wikipedia Bills son married Mandy Smiths mother. “Consequently, the ex-Rolling Stone became his own son's ex-son-in-law, the father-in-law of his ex-mother-in-law, as well as the stepgrandfather of his ex-wife.”
Quote from Wiki.

 

[Trackman]

Wasn't she only about 14 years old?

Met when they were 13, started having sex at 14. Police were not bothered. A bit Pete Townshend who (no pun) got off with a caution but was put on the sex offenders register.

 

[nw1]

Strange how some people's records never get played, and their radio/TV appearances never get reshown: Gary Glitter, Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall, Jonathan King, Philip Schofield, and so on...

...but for some who have been determined to have carried out similar acts those acts get ignored. You still hear Michael Jackson songs being played despite the numerous allegations that he abused under-age boys.

Allegations versus convictions is perhaps the key thing here?

 

[etr221]

Indeed. Later,according to Wikipedia Bills son married Mandy Smiths mother. “Consequently, the ex-Rolling Stone became his own son's ex-son-in-law, the father-in-law of his ex-mother-in-law, as well as the stepgrandfather of his ex-wife.”
Quote from Wiki.

Cue song: I'm my own Grandpa. Family tree or tangled thicket?

 

[Strathclyder]

I've seen clips of the Savile episode on YouTube, there are a few very creepy moments there where he actually alludes to his crimes in a way that makes it seem like a throwaway joke.

Yeah, spine-chilling ain't the word to use to describe them.

 

[contrex]

I must say that the news immediately made me think "refs unpersons, doubleplusungood"

And that made me think of the song 'Doubleplusgood' on the Eurythmics album '1984 (For the Love of Big Brother)', released that year, which was commissioned for the Virgin Films film of the Orwell/Blair novel. I heard it (the novel) invoked after the statue of Edward Colston was pitched into the Floating Harbour in Bristol. Removing it (an act I thoroughly agree with) was deemed to be 'altering history' (as if that isn't done all the time anyway). Nowadays, the language of Nineteen Eighty-Four is used by rightwingers to indict “wokeism”. Any new coinage from the left is called “Newspeak”; any attempt to acknowledge moral ambiguity is dismissed as “doublethink”.

 

[Dai Corner]

. I heard it (the novel) invoked after the statue of Edward Colston was pitched into the Floating Harbour in Bristol. Removing it (an act I thoroughly agree with) was deemed to be 'altering history' (as if that isn't done all the time anyway

Just wait until left wing Bristolian activists realise how the University's Wills Memorial building was paid for!

 

[contrex]

Just wait until left wing Bristolian activists realise how the University's Wills Memorial building was paid for!

We do know all about that. There have been initiatives since at least 2017 to rename the Wills Memorial Building, the Fry Building, the Merchant Venturers Building, the HH Wills Physics Laboratories, Goldney Hall, Wills Hall and Dame Monica Wills Chapel. All have dubious links to the past. All have been turned down by the university, although in 2023 it said the dolphin emblem of Edward Colston will be removed from the university logo.

To be clear, I don't believe that such actions would 'erase history' any more than removing statues of e.g. Confederate generals, Hitler, Franco, or Stalin, or renaming streets or places named after them did. To suggest that they do is at best misguided.

 

[nlogax]

Just caught this thread and it got me thinking back to when I uploaded a couple of turn-of-the-millennium retrospectives of 1970s & 80s tv shows to my YT channel. Watching them back a few months later it dawned on me that the BBC show featured a minute or two of Stuart Hall and the ITV upload contained multiple seconds of Jimmy Savile.

After the cold sweats wore off I decided to keep them unedited and just put a 'sorry, please be aware..' note in each description. Still feels like the right decision to me.

 

[Merle Haggard]

We do know all about that. There have been initiatives since at least 2017 to rename the Wills Memorial Building, the Fry Building, the Merchant Venturers Building, the HH Wills Physics Laboratories, Goldney Hall, Wills Hall and Dame Monica Wills Chapel. All have dubious links to the past. All have been turned down by the university, although in 2023 it said the dolphin emblem of Edward Colston will be removed from the university logo.

To be clear, I don't believe that such actions would 'erase history' any more than removing statues of Confederate generals or renaming streets named after Hitler, Franco, or Stalin did. To suggest that they do is at best misguided.

That's opening a whole can of metaphorical worms.

Here's the train of events; Reference to Merchant Venturers seems to have been banned already (slave trade connection - train name no longer used)..
It's realised that they provided the capital for the London - Bristol railway. so references to G.W.R. has to be removed.
Then, people realise that Brunel must have known about the connection, so he must be removed. The statue at Paddington must go! (Little Venice quite handy)
And, talking of Paddington, built on M. V. money, what about that eponymous bear in the glass case there? Can't have that!

Just continuing the logic already seen, not expressing an opinion about its likelihood, correctness or ... anything.

 

[Dai Corner]

We do know all about that. There have been initiatives since at least 2017 to rename the Wills Memorial Building, the Fry Building, the Merchant Venturers Building, the HH Wills Physics Laboratories, Goldney Hall, Wills Hall and Dame Monica Wills Chapel. All have dubious links to the past. All have been turned down by the university, although in 2023 it said the dolphin emblem of Edward Colston will be removed from the university logo.

To be clear, I don't believe that such actions would 'erase history' any more than removing statues of e.g. Confederate generals, Hitler, Franco, or Stalin, or renaming streets or places named after them did. To suggest that they do is at best misguided.

One and a half cheers then for Bristol University.

We shouldn't try to deny connections with our past just because they've since been deemed unacceptable by current standards. Acknowledge what are seen as mistakes of the past and celebrate the progress made since.

 

[contrex]

That's opening a whole can of metaphorical worms. ...
what about that eponymous bear in the glass case there? Can't have that!

I think that's the 'common speech' meaning of reductio ad absurdum. In my long Civil Service career, my abiding sense of the meaning of 'can of worms' (a very popular expression) has been 'a situation about which something really ought to be done, but which we're too scared or lazy to address'. I have been a determined priser-off of lids, and proud of it. I've given talks on it.

 

[Busaholic]

We do know all about that. There have been initiatives since at least 2017 to rename the Wills Memorial Building, the Fry Building, the Merchant Venturers Building, the HH Wills Physics Laboratories, Goldney Hall, Wills Hall and Dame Monica Wills Chapel. All have dubious links to the past. All have been turned down by the university, although in 2023 it said the dolphin emblem of Edward Colston will be removed from the university logo.

To be clear, I don't believe that such actions would 'erase history' any more than removing statues of e.g. Confederate generals, Hitler, Franco, or Stalin, or renaming streets or places named after them did. To suggest that they do is at best misguided.

I attended Bristol University in the mid 1980s. Some students were getting exercised about the Wills connection even then, believe me.

 

[contrex]

I attended Bristol University in the mid 1980s. Some students were getting exercised about the Wills connection even then, believe me.

I attended Bristol Poly (whose origin was partly the Merchant Venturers' Technical College) in the 1970s, and the topic did come up. The Bristol 600 thing on the Downs in 1973 was organised by the Merchant Venturers and their slave past was discussed, but only by us 'lefties' and some Christians.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I hadn’t even realised Colston Hall in Bristol was named after a slave trader until I attended a concert there a few years ago. Until I read the leaflet thrust upon me on entering the building I would have blissfully remained unaware of his past,just like thousands of others.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And of course in the USA, George Washington owned a lot of slaves. Try erasing him from history. Sometimes we just need to be sensible and not go down too many rabbit holes.

 

[birchesgreen]

If you erased everyone from history who was a bit dodgy compared to current sensibilities, world history books would be about 2 pages thick.

 

[Senex]

If you erased everyone from history who was a bit dodgy compared to current sensibilities, world history books would be about 2 pages thick.

Would any historical figures at all remain available for discussion? It's hard to think of a single influential figure who doesn't have some objection against them from today's snowflake mustn't-offend-anyone perspectives.

 

[Calthrop]

We do know all about that. There have been initiatives since at least 2017 to rename the Wills Memorial Building, the Fry Building, the Merchant Venturers Building, the HH Wills Physics Laboratories, Goldney Hall, Wills Hall and Dame Monica Wills Chapel. All have dubious links to the past. All have been turned down by the university, although in 2023 it said the dolphin emblem of Edward Colston will be removed from the university logo.

I'm ignorant -- what's the objection to H.H. Wills? -- tobacco involvement; or something else? Attempts at Googling have seemed to lead me nowhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

And of course in the USA, George Washington owned a lot of slaves. Try erasing him from history. Sometimes we just need to be sensible and not go down too many rabbit holes.

Churchill has a similar problem. It would be ridiculous to erase him from history because of his racist views, he had a significant impact particularly during World War Two but was in and around British history in various forms for around fifty years. But equally it's also ridiculous to lionise him and ignore the fact that the man was a racist and some of the views he held and exposed are abhorrent by current standards.

History is complex and rarely is a character within it black or white and pretending otherwise is foolish. Far better to be honest about what might be admirable about an individual and their causes/actions whilst also being honest about what flaws they may have had. Unfortunately, sticking to Churchill, it seems that for some any suggestion that he was anything than either a saint (typically right wingers) or a monster (typically left wingers) is greeted as an outrage. I would assume that something similar goes on with George Washington in the US.

 

[contrex]

If you erased everyone from history who was a bit dodgy compared to current sensibilities, world history books would be about 2 pages thick.

Have you actually thought about what you wrote? You are confusing actual history as taught and written about, with statues and names honouring people.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

I'm ignorant -- what's the objection to H.H. Wills? -- tobacco involvement; or something else? Attempts at Googling have seemed to lead me nowhere.

Are you serious? The Wills family got their wealth largely through slavery.

 

[Calthrop]

Are you serious? The Wills family got their wealth largely through slavery.

I was serious -- I admit to, largely, living under a rock. Right -- it's about slavery, rather than about smoking being bad for people. Thank you.

 

[Strathclyder]

Churchill has a similar problem. It would be ridiculous to erase him from history because of his racist views, he had a significant impact particularly during World War Two but was in and around British history in various forms for around fifty years. But equally it's also ridiculous to lionise him and ignore the fact that the man was a racist and some of the views he held and exposed are abhorrent by current standards.

History is complex and rarely is a character within it black or white and pretending otherwise is foolish. Far better to be honest about what might be admirable about an individual and their causes/actions whilst also being honest about what flaws they may have had. Unfortunately, sticking to Churchill, it seems that for some any suggestion that he was anything than either a saint (typically right wingers) or a monster (typically left wingers) is greeted as an outrage. I would assume that something similar goes on with George Washington in the US.

Yes indeed, this is precisely where I land on this issue. Sticking with the US, Woodrow Wilson & Herbet Hoover (heck, even Richard Nixon) are other prime examples of this.

 

[43096]

History is complex and rarely is a character within it black or white and pretending otherwise is foolish.

Are we still allowed to use the terms ‘black’ and ‘white’ in that context, especially as one may be interpreted as ‘good’ and the other ‘bad’?

 

[contrex]

Are we still allowed to use the terms ‘black’ and ‘white’ in that context, especially as one may be interpreted as ‘good’ and the other ‘bad’?

Of course, you're being mischievous there (that 'still allowed'), I hope?

 

[43096]

Of course, you're being mischievous there (that 'still allowed'), I hope?

I am! Although I am a little surprised that it hasn’t been picked up as an inappropriate use by people who get their knickers in a twist about that sort of thing.

 

[contrex]

I am! Although I am a little surprised that it hasn’t been picked up as an inappropriate use by people who get their knickers in a twist about that sort of thing.

Maybe that's because they don't see it as inappropriate, because they aren't daft? Nice try at blaming 'the PC brigade' for something they haven't actually done.

 

[Broucek]

I attended Bristol University in the mid 1980s. Some students were getting exercised about the Wills connection even then, believe me.

Same! But I recall the focus being tobacco rather than slavery