Erasing "wrong-uns" from history

[Busaholic]

Same! But I recall the focus being tobacco rather than slavery

I think you're right. I don't remember even hearing of the continued existence of the Merchant Venturers as a force in Bristol either, but I left the city never wishing to return for more than the odd couple of hours.

 

[najaB]

You still hear Michael Jackson songs being played despite the numerous allegations that he abused under-age boys.

As you say, allegations. Nothing has ever been proven.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

I am! Although I am a little surprised that it hasn’t been picked up as an inappropriate use by people who get their knickers in a twist about that sort of thing.

Funny you mention this. My company has a policy of using "allow list" and "block list" rather than "whitelist" and "blacklist".

 

[JamesT]

Funny you mention this. My company has a policy of using "allow list" and "block list" rather than "whitelist" and "blacklist".

There’s been a general trend recently of IT companies changing terminology to be more inclusive. Similarly “master” and “slave” being deprecated.

 

[GusB]

I have to say that I feel very uneasy about erasing history.

It may turn out that certain individuals were involved in some unsavoury activities in the past, but those events still happened. The WD and HO Wills factory in Glasgow was where my aunt met her then future husband; should they be made to deny how they met?

Much of our industrial heritage is steeped in dodgy activities; isn't it better to acknowledge that those events happened and that we should learn from those mistakes, rather than pretend that they didn't happen at all?

 

[Broucek]

"....isn't it better to acknowledge that those events happened and that we should learn from those mistakes, rather than pretend that they didn't happen at all?"

Exactly. There are important lessons in all this. I also worry a bit that we are seeking to rid the world of evil by focusing on people whose behaviour has already been exposed and who are therefore much less of a threat.

Of course we might even - gasp - seek to rid the world of evil by looking at our own behaviour rather than that of others but I don't want to de"rail" the topic

 

[Strathclyder]

Much of our industrial heritage is steeped in dodgy activities; isn't it better to acknowledge that those events happened and that we should learn from those mistakes, rather than pretend that they didn't happen at all?

Precisely, I personally refer to this as the 'Looney Tunes' approach as this was my first real exposure to this trope in practice growing up, given that I own the entire Golden Collection DVD boxset; the latter volumes contain the advisories preceding some cartoons. Disney also do the same with their classic animated shorts released on home media/streaming services (WB also own the rights to most of the former MGM 'Golden Age' animation pantheon like Tom & Jerry, Droopy Dog, Tex Avery etc and I believe the same applies there).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I used to collect Gollywogs! Seriously! I can’t change the past .

 

[Busaholic]

I used to collect Gollywogs! Seriously! I can’t change the past .

I used to see the huge golliwog outside Robertson's jam factory everytime I visited Catford bus garage next door to it when I was a child.

 

[alex397]

I feel like we acknowledge our history more than ever before. There’s so many plaques around our countryside, towns and cities, telling us the history and not just the glossy bits. And museums tell us a lot more too.

I’m pleased we have removed statues of slave traders - that is not erasing history, as statues celebrate people. In the same way that statues of Stalin and Lenin in most ex-USSR states, and how lots of things related to Jimmy Saville have been removed. None of these things have been erased over, as we know such much about them in other ways.

 

[DerekC]

I feel like we acknowledge our history more than ever before. There’s so many plaques around our countryside, towns and cities, telling us the history and not just the glossy bits. And museums tell us a lot more too.

I’m pleased we have removed statues of slave traders - that is not erasing history, as statues celebrate people. In the same way that statues of Stalin and Lenin in most ex-USSR states, and how lots of things related to Jimmy Saville have been removed. None of these things have been erased over, as we know such much about them in other ways.

Agreed. The point is that statues are erected and buildings named to honour people we respect for their achievements. If we find out things about a person that destroys that respect, it seems entirely appropriate to remove the statue from public display or rename a building. That's not erasing history in any way. I suspect that both Jimmy Saville and Edward Carson's names are much better known now for their bad deeds than they ever would have been if they hadn't done those things. Equally, Huw Edwards' name will be remembered for his fall, whether or not old programmes featuring him continue to be shown.

And nobody (as far as I know) is suggesting erasing Churchill - but his dark side should be acknowledged alongside his status as a national hero.

 

[317 forever]

Channel 5 have made programmes showcasing the biggest hits of the 1970s. They try to jump rapidly to the next one when the countdown features Rolf Harris (Two Liitle Boys) or Gary Glitter.

I notice how, from Mel Smith & Kim Wilde's version of Rocking Around the Christmas Tree, the line I haven't had this much fun since Two Little Boys was number 1 has been deleted from versions played on radio. This is presumably to avoid even reminding people of this having been one of his hits.

 

[nw1]

I notice how, from Mel Smith & Kim Wilde's version of Rocking Around the Christmas Tree, the line I haven't had this much fun since Two Little Boys was number 1 has been deleted from versions played on radio. This is presumably to avoid even reminding people of this having been one of his hits.

I've noticed that Pick of the Pops generally just mention the song title, and not the artist, whenever a Glitter song is in the rundown.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've noticed that Pick of the Pops generally just mention the song title, and not the artist, whenever a Glitter song is in the rundown.

Judge Dread had about half a dozen Top Twenty hits in the 1970s, together with some minor ones. They were banned by the B.B.C., presumably because of the double-entendre in the lyrics. I remember that the Top of the Pops rundown only gave them a couple of seconds mention of chart position on the display, no spoken mention .
I also remember that when Saville was the presenter of the Radio 2 Top Tens of years ago programme he passed them over by saying 'we don't play THAT sort of music here'...

 

[nw1]

Judge Dread had about half a dozen Top Twenty hits in the 1970s, together with some minor ones. They were banned by the B.B.C., presumably because of the double-entendre in the lyrics. I remember that the Top of the Pops rundown only gave them a couple of seconds mention of chart position on the display, no spoken mention .
I also remember that when Saville was the presenter of the Radio 2 Top Tens of years ago programme he passed them over by saying 'we don't play THAT sort of music here'...

While doubtless Savile played Glitter, of course.

I can truthfully say to this day that I have never heard a Judge Dread hit, for the reasons given above.

I became aware of his existence in the late 80s when I got hold of "British Hit Singles" and saw him listed in there, with the rather risque nature of the song titles, but have never heard the music.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I can truthfully say to this day that I have never heard a Judge Dread hit, for the reasons given above.

I became aware of his existence in the late 80s when I got hold of "British Hit Singles", and the rather risque nature of the song titles, but have never heard the music.

We look back at the 1970s as a time when there were a lot of 'bad-uns' about as mentioned in the O.P. - with the inference that today is much more enlightened and progressive. Judge Dread used comparatively mild double-entrendre. We now have music with very direct lyrics about far worse subjects which I won't describe further. I have listened to them to see if they were as offensive as suggested. And yes, they were, in my opinion.

 

[Dai Corner]

We look back at the 1970s as a time when there were a lot of 'bad-uns' about as mentioned in the O.P. - with the inference that today is much more enlightened and progressive. Judge Dread used comparatively mild double-entrendre. We now have music with very direct lyrics about far worse subjects which I won't describe further. I have listened to them to see if they were as offensive as suggested. And yes, they were, in my opinion.

As a teenager I bought Judge Dread singles just because they were banned by the Beeb. I've heard much worse being sung by today's teenagers on the bus on the way home from school.

 

[Merle Haggard]

As a teenager I bought Judge Dread singles just because they were banned by the Beeb. I've heard much worse being sung by today's teenagers on the bus on the way home from school.

Banning by the B.B.C. was one way of getting a hit!

And how smug we felt listening to 'Walk on the wild side', not banned on the B.B.C., and knowing what the lyrics meant.

 

[nw1]

We look back at the 1970s as a time when there were a lot of 'bad-uns' about as mentioned in the O.P. - with the inference that today is much more enlightened and progressive. Judge Dread used comparatively mild double-entrendre. We now have music with very direct lyrics about far worse subjects which I won't describe further. I have listened to them to see if they were as offensive as suggested. And yes, they were, in my opinion.

It's an interesting observation about current music as I am only aware of it through a filter, essentially what Radio 2 and ILR play (and in fact increasingly just R2, as my ILR station effectively closed down at Easter).

What I hear is mostly non-offensive but of course the aforementioned stations are only playing a small selection of more mainstream current hits which appeals to mature adults.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Judge Dread was mild and his songs were played over and over on NCTS - Northern Counties Transport Society- spotting trips by coach. Big 6 etc. I would argue Relax by Frankie goes to Hollywood and even It’s not fair by Lilly Allen and some rap music is worse.

 

[Senex]

Agreed. The point is that statues are erected and buildings named to honour people we respect for their achievements. If we find out things about a person that destroys that respect, it seems entirely appropriate to remove the statue from public display or rename a building. That's not erasing history in any way. I suspect that both Jimmy Saville and Edward Carson's names are much better known now for their bad deeds than they ever would have been if they hadn't done those things. Equally, Huw Edwards' name will be remembered for his fall, whether or not old programmes featuring him continue to be shown.

And nobody (as far as I know) is suggesting erasing Churchill - but his dark side should be acknowledged alongside his status as a national hero.

So should we also get rid of statues of particularly bloodthirsty kings, generals, etc, of aristocrats who had any connection to the Irish Potato Famine, etc, etc, or is it only things commemorative of one particular version of slavery that is so objectionable?

Surely far better to recognise that we all have a very complicated history and that beliefs and attitudes change and may very well change again — and that there's no certainty that all history always moves on towards a better world. So keep all records, written, sculpted, artistic, etc, but interpret and explain, making clear that any explanations are no more than explanations based on the views of the current time. (None of us will be around to see what views are in a century's time.)

But records and evidence should never be destroyed, texts should never be censored. (We and future generations must be as free to read the full text of Mein Kampf as an original copy of a certain Agatha Christie work or all of Richmal Crompton's work unchaged.)

 

[najaB]

So should we also get rid of statues of particularly bloodthirsty kings, generals, etc, of aristocrats who had any connection to the Irish Potato Famine, etc, etc, or is it only things commemorative of one particular version of slavery that is so objectionable?

Get rid of? No. But perhaps the plaques beneath them can be replaced/modified to give a more complete picture of their actions (the bad with the good).

 

[nw1]

Judge Dread was mild and his songs were played over and over on NCTS - Northern Counties Transport Society- spotting trips by coach. Big 6 etc. I would argue Relax by Frankie goes to Hollywood and even It’s not fair by Lilly Allen and some rap music is worse.

Relax? Not sure.

If you understand the lyrics, then fine - it's a case of "so what?"

If you're too young to understand the lyrics, they'll mean nothing to you anyway and thus cannot be considered offensive.

If you're homophobic, you shouldn't really be being pandered to anyway.

Always thought that ban was a bit silly.

 

[SargeNpton]

Allegations versus convictions is perhaps the key thing here?

Jimmy Saville was never convicted so his activities remain as allegations - though everybody accepts that they happened.

Michael Jackson was tried on some charges and found not guilty (which I though was surprising based on the evidence). But fresh allegations were raised after his death, including that hush money was paid to some of the families. Those allegations are largely now accepted as happened, but his music gets played regardless.

 

[DerekC]

So should we also get rid of statues of particularly bloodthirsty kings, generals, etc, of aristocrats who had any connection to the Irish Potato Famine, etc, etc, or is it only things commemorative of one particular version of slavery that is so objectionable?

Did you really mean "one particular version of slavery"? I will read that as "one particular version of history". I certainly don't think that we should be bound to preserve the physical evidence of every decision made by previous generations as to who they wanted to commemorate as worthy of respect. Do you think it wrong that Germany has got rid of statues of Adolf Hitler? You have to draw the line somewhere. I do agree it isn't easy and we should think twice about it. However you have to respect other peoples views as well as your own. I would certainly want to remove any statue of Jimmy Saville that might happen to have been erected, and people whose ancestors were enslaved must feel even more strongly about Edward Carson, if that's who you are talking about.

 

[takno]

Did you really mean "one particular version of slavery"? I will read that as "one particular version of history". I certainly don't think that we should be bound to preserve the physical evidence of every decision made by previous generations as to who they wanted to commemorate as worthy of respect. Do you think it wrong that Germany has got rid of statues of Adolf Hitler? You have to draw the line somewhere. I do agree it isn't easy and we should think twice about it. However you have to respect other peoples views as well as your own. I would certainly want to remove any statue of Jimmy Saville that might happen to have been erected, and people whose ancestors were enslaved must feel even more strongly about Edward Carson, if that's who you are talking about.

I've got no particular issues with the removal of statues. There are only so many plinths, and there are a lot of people to commemorate. Unless the statue itself has some exceptional artistic value then it seems only natural to remove Jimmy Saville quite quickly. Colston seems like a bit of an outlier to retain anyway, being a relatively minor cog in a short-lived, quite dull and not especially creditable aspect of late-colonial Bristol society.

 

[najaB]

I've got no particular issues with the removal of statues. There are only so many plinths, and there are a lot of people to commemorate.

The idea of statues having a fixed "lifetime" when they're erected does appeal.

 

[Jimini]

Huw Edwards has pleaded guilty.

Former BBC Anchor Huw Edwards Pleads Guilty To Indecent Image Charges - Arise News

Huw Edwards, ex-BBC anchor, has pleaded guilty to making indecent pictures of children and faces sentencing in September.

www.arise.tv

…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!

 

[GordonT]

…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!

He'll take quite a bit of erasing.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!

Ludicrous!

 

[deltic]

…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!

In line with sentencing policy of Community order to 3 years’ custody