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EU, Immigration and UKIP

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radamfi

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I totally agree, but clearly you also (from the way you wrote the post) know already that most people won't ever make the move to somewhere cheaper (and where you could quite possibly enjoy a higher standard of living).

People aren't even interested in moving to a cheaper part of the UK. I've had many a conversation with people with good equity in their home who are totally repulsed by the concept of moving up north to become mortgage free, and maybe enabling them to retire early.

Even the Polish people are overwhelmingly inclined to stay at home. Only about 2 million out of its population of about 38 million are working abroad.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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You can throw stats at me all you want - that does not change peoples perception and 11% of a small population for the island is quite high and as someone who lived there during the first time people were jumping on lorries that they did indeed become swamped with immigrants. In fact some people in teh smaller villages and towns there still believe that they are.

The stats may well not change people's perceptions, but they may well indicate that people's perceptions do not match reality.

I find the use of the term 'swamped' notable because it's a very emotive term that carries strong implications of disliking the people you feel 'swamped' by. Perhaps it would be more helpful if you could explain in what manner the permanent residents towns in Kent are being harmed by the immigrants you refer to? (Are they being harmed by the presence of those immigrants?)
 

Antman

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Isn't that part of the problem though?
A debate about immigration does need to happen. But it needs to be driven by facts and reality rather than peoples perceptions (which are often way out of touch with what is actually going on).

It seems to me that a lot of these stats quoted are way out of touch with what is actually going on, how does anybody know how many migrants are living in Thanet or anywhere else for that matter?
 

EM2

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They're from the latest census, the same census used by Government and councils to plan spending and services.
If you have proof that it's not close to being accurate (and I mean proof, not anecdotes or surmising), then please supply the figures that are.
 

Antman

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They're from the latest census, the same census used by Government and councils to plan spending and services.
If you have proof that it's not close to being accurate (and I mean proof, not anecdotes or surmising), then please supply the figures that are.

There is no proof one way or the other
 

meridian2

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Isn't that part of the problem though?
A debate about immigration does need to happen. But it needs to be driven by facts and reality rather than peoples perceptions (which are often way out of touch with what is actually going on).

We can't have an honest debate about immigration unless those that purport free movement of labor tell us a) where have those that have disapepared through the system have gone and b) what percentage of immigrants are illegal? So far we have had a lot of stats that tell us nothing.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I think it's clear that Antman is going to ignore any form of evidence that doesn't fit exactly what he sees in his limited exposure.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk
 

jon0844

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People aren't even interested in moving to a cheaper part of the UK. I've had many a conversation with people with good equity in their home who are totally repulsed by the concept of moving up north to become mortgage free, and maybe enabling them to retire early.

That's probably changing now, or at least as people get older and want to upsize and can only do so by moving further out. It's funny how opinions change when you're in your twenties (wanting to stay in London for the social scene) and get older, have a family or simply change your priorities.

I moved out of London at 29 and don't regret it one bit. To go from a one bedroom flat to a three bedroom house with garden, sizeable front drive & garage (albeit now converted into another room as it joins onto the house) has meant a massive increase in the quality of life, and I'm still just 26 minutes away from King's Cross - quicker for me than when I lived in London and had to use two buses or bus/tube with multiple stops.

When I go back to where I lived, they've built even smaller flats and I don't know why anyone would choose to buy them just to live in London, but hey - plenty of people do or else there wouldn't be the demand that drives up the prices.
 
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radamfi

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I moved out of London at 29 and don't regret it one bit. To go from a one bedroom flat to a three bedroom house with garden, sizeable front drive & garage (albeit now converted into another room as it joins onto the house) has meant a massive increase in the quality of life, and I'm still just 26 minutes away from King's Cross - quicker for me than when I lived in London and had to use two buses or bus/tube with multiple stops.

I admit you have moved up north (:)) but I was really thinking of moving right out of the South East.

Moving from inner London to suburban areas in outer London and the Home Counties has been going on for decades. Some would call it 'white flight', given that the former residents have been replaced by people who aren't white British, which was written about on the BBC website a year or so ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904
 

Antman

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The evidence that has already been posted in the thread. Evidence that you have been unable to refute.

Tell you what, go down to Thanet with a megaphone and tell the good folk there about this 'evidence' and see what response you get..........good luck:D
 

EM2

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I'll let the Thanet Gazette do it for me, thanks:
http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Time-clear-migrant-myths/story-20422291-detail/story.html
HARDLY a week passes without the Government announcing a 'crackdown' on immigration in the UK.

Last month, David Cameron pledged to restrict benefits to new arrivals from the EU and deport any EU migrants found to be sleeping rough.

It's no surprise that David Cameron is talking tough on EU migrants. This issue, unlike others such as the state of the economy or our severe lack of housing, is almost entirely out of his hands.

His proposed 'clampdown' on EU migrants will have almost no effect, but his words are eagerly lapped up by ruthless media and the people of the UK who are rightly angered by the state of this country.

The fact is, however, that anger at EU migrants is often misplaced.

Various myths have been fabricated in order to generate and reinforce anger and hatred towards migrants and it's time that we took a closer look at these myths.

One of the pervasive myths being spread about EU migrants is that they come to the UK as benefits tourists, eager to 'sponge' off the welfare state. However, as the Government who peddle this myth know, there's very little factual basis for it.

Indeed, a study by the University of London found that EEA migrants (EU migrants plus Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) contribute 34 per cent more in taxes than they receive in benefits.

The same study found that migrants who arrived in the UK after 1999 were 45 per cent less likely to rely on social security than UK natives and less likely to be given social housing.

Despite the Government's myth-making on immigration, there's no doubt that real concerns remain around new arrivals from the EU. One concern for people in Canterbury, particularly those on low incomes, is that EU migrants might put downward pressure on wages.

The truth is that migrants do not, on the whole, force wages down but low-paid workers can indeed suffer with an influx of new arrivals into an area.

A solution to this would, of course, be to have a properly enforced minimum wage set at a level high enough for people to live a decent life on. What politicians from establishment parties seemingly fail to grasp is the role they play in fanning the flames of immigrant bashing in the right wing press.

Their role in this is twofold. Firstly, they persistently reinforce the 'fact' that immigrants are a drain on services and a threat to society and secondly, they fail to deal with the underlying causes for people's concern.

These underlying causes of concern are very real. Here in Kent there is extraordinary pressure on our housing, a problem not caused by immigrants but by a lack of house-building and a wrong-headed economic policy.

Not only are people struggling to get on the housing ladder but wages across the UK are failing to keep up with hikes in our bills. While banker's pay is up 43 per cent and the rest of the UK is struggling to recover from a financial crisis caused by the City of London, our Government is determined to avoid responsibility by blaming immigrants for our problems.

Some would have us all believe that millions of Romanians and Bulgarians will arrive this month to live a life of ease in the UK. This won't be the case.

The vast majority of people living here, whether they were born in the UK or elsewhere, are paying the price for a crisis which they had no part in causing. Wages are stagnating, benefits are being cut and too few houses are being built. It's time to refocus our anger on the financial system which caused the crisis and on the cuts consensus in Westminster that's only made things worse.
 

21C101

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Daily Mail is reporting that

'Expert' behind migrant report [that claims EU immigration has boosted public finances by £20bn] was man who said just 13,000 would come from Eastern Europe


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...man-said-just-13-000-come-Eastern-Europe.html


Everyone appears to be running away from the point that if you are highly skilled and wealthy high numbers of migrants make goods and services cheaper for you while not in the main being able to compete with you for work as they don't have the skills/wealth.

If you are not highly skilled or wealthy it is a disaster because the directly compete with you for work forcing wages down or stagnation at best, and also compete with you for housing forcing such asset prices and rent up.

Most of the people running the country in senior industrial, service industry, public sector or political positions are in the former category. Most of the voters are in the latter position.
 
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EM2

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If you are not highly skilled or wealthy it is a disaster because the directly compete with you for work forcing wages down or stagnation at best, and also compete with you for housing forcing such asset prices and rent up.
Everyone I know, both at work and socially would fit into this category. And not one of them is considering voting UKIP.
 

ExRes

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People aren't even interested in moving to a cheaper part of the UK. I've had many a conversation with people with good equity in their home who are totally repulsed by the concept of moving up north to become mortgage free, and maybe enabling them to retire early.

Even the Polish people are overwhelmingly inclined to stay at home. Only about 2 million out of its population of about 38 million are working abroad.

Can't agree with this at all, for those of us that live in the South East there are many cheaper places and large numbers of people have moved to such areas as East Anglia, Wales and the Borders, Yorkshire and the South West, my recent visits to Estate Agents in Devon have always met with the same comments, 'oh you're moving from London as well then' and my new next door neighbour to be is from Sussex, just the same as me, as for your use of the word 'repulsed', where do you get that one from ?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Everyone appears to be running away from the point that if you are highly skilled and wealthy high numbers of migrants make goods and services cheaper for you while not in the main being able to compete with you for work as they don't have the skills/wealth.

If you are not highly skilled or wealthy it is a disaster because the directly compete with you for work forcing wages down or stagnation at best, and also compete with you for housing forcing such asset prices and rent up.

That's a rather simplistic analysis that UKIP like presenting, but the reality is a lot more complex than that. If more competition for low-skilled jobs drives down wages and therefore prices, that benefits everyone, not just the wealthy. It very likely means slightly cheaper food, slightly cheaper take-aways, and so on (Obviously, that benefit needs to be offset against a possible loss in wages for some people effected by the greater competition).

Secondly, immigrants are not only employees, they are also consumers. Once they've earned their wages, they will spend them, which in turn creates more jobs.

Thirdly, the problem with housing is arguably caused not by immigrants but by the Government's failure to manage housing properly over a long time. I've already pointed out earlier in this thread that net migration over the last decade has - for all the scaremongering - only added around .3% to the population annually - there's really no excuse for not building enough homes to accommodate that kind of small population increase. Indeed, if successive Governments had managed housing properly, there would actually have been a considerable benefit in terms of creating many more jobs in the construction industry.

I'm not btw saying there's no problem of wages being driven down - but pointing out that the situation is complex, and easy to exaggerate.
 

21C101

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That's a rather simplistic analysis that UKIP like presenting, but the reality is a lot more complex than that. If more competition for low-skilled jobs drives down wages and therefore prices, that benefits everyone, not just the wealthy. It very likely means slightly cheaper food, slightly cheaper take-aways, and so on (Obviously, that benefit needs to be offset against a possible loss in wages for some people effected by the greater competition).

Secondly, immigrants are not only employees, they are also consumers. Once they've earned their wages, they will spend them, which in turn creates more jobs.

Thirdly, the problem with housing is arguably caused not by immigrants but by the Government's failure to manage housing properly over a long time. I've already pointed out earlier in this thread that net migration over the last decade has - for all the scaremongering - only added around .3% to the population annually - there's really no excuse for not building enough homes to accommodate that kind of small population increase. Indeed, if successive Governments had managed housing properly, there would actually have been a considerable benefit in terms of creating many more jobs in the construction industry.

I'm not btw saying there's no problem of wages being driven down - but pointing out that the situation is complex, and easy to exaggerate.

Its simplistic because if I don't keep it simple the post will be too long and no one will bother to read it. "Its much more complex" is just a variation of the appeal to authority.


If your wages are stagnant (so falling including inflation) or actually falling, falls in the cost of goods and services (which are mainly due to your wages falling) are no help to you. Ask anyone in the construction industry. Many trades are paid little more or even less than they were ten or twenty years ago.

If you are in the public or quasi public sector (ie rail industry) then national wages and annual pay rises (even if small) cushion you from this.
 
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Butts

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I often wonder what would have happened to UKIP had Nigel Farage expired in that unfortunate aviation incident on polling day in 2010.

Are they a one man band or could they have survived his demise ?
 

MidnightFlyer

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They probably wouldn't be as strong but Paul Nuttall would have been just as good a leader - he is an excellent speaker and doesn't carry that slightly-annoying quintessential English City-trading gentleman persona Farage does.
 

radamfi

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I find it interesting to read that even the Norwegians want to retain freedom of movement, even though they aren't in the EU. They are an incredibly rich country so you would think they would be very vulnerable from 'open door' immigration.

Can't agree with this at all, for those of us that live in the South East there are many cheaper places and large numbers of people have moved to such areas as East Anglia, Wales and the Borders, Yorkshire and the South West, my recent visits to Estate Agents in Devon have always met with the same comments, 'oh you're moving from London as well then' and my new next door neighbour to be is from Sussex, just the same as me, as for your use of the word 'repulsed', where do you get that one from ?

People are prepared to go to more scenic areas like Devon to retire, but Devon, for example, isn't that cheap. People aren't very interested in cheap places like Coventry or Rochdale.
 
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ExRes

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I find it interesting to read that even the Norwegians want to retain freedom of movement, even though they aren't in the EU. They are an incredibly rich country so you would think they would be very vulnerable from 'open door' immigration.



People are prepared to go to more scenic areas like Devon to retire, but Devon, for example, isn't that cheap. People aren't very interested in cheap places like Coventry or Rochdale.

Have you ever been to Norway ?, try it and visit a coffee shop, a clothes shop, a food shop, you'll quickly see that you need to be 'rich' to be able to afford to buy basic needs and live in any way comfortably

There are lots of cheap properties in Devon and Cornwall, living in the South West doesn't mean buying a detached bungalow overlooking the sea in Salcombe, have a look at Rightmove and see the amount of cheap property for sale in Plymouth for example, also living in Rochdale or Coventry is not all about cheap 2 up 2 downs, my brother in law has a superb property on the outskirts of Coventry surrounded by countryside and in an ideal retirement area
 

Greenback

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The Norwegians, though, are, in general, a lot better off than we are. Although from what my friend tells me they don't have such a huge variance between the rich and the poor either.

I have to say that on my many visits to Norway I haven't noticed the supermarkets being ridiculously expensive by our standards. Pricier, yes, but not by that much, unlike eating and drinking out which I've always found to be too expensive to bother with, ever since my first visit in 1995. The locals, though, don't seem to be put off too much.

You make a good point about cheap properties. There are even desirable properties in the Llanelli, it's not all terraces and chimneys!
 

TheJRB

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And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Whole swathes of the towns there had their hotels and B&Bs full to the brim with immigrants both legal and illegal that the townsfolk were up in arms at the councils(Im looking at you Thanet) for allowing it to happen.

So just because you havent exsperienced it doesnt mean that it has not happenned and the people affected should not have a voice. Unfortunatly and more increasingly that voice is that of UKIP.
Haha! This did make me laugh. I live in one of the most south easterly towns of this country and I can tell you exactly how it is. This part of Kent remains 85+% white British born.

It's true that the Burstin hotel in Folkestone has been used a short term refuge for illegal immigrants. It also happens to be in (if the people of Folkestone would kindly ignore my forthcoming comments ;)) a not particularly nice area. To be brutally honest, there's a lot of Kent (parts of Medway, Thanet, Folkestone, Dover etc.) which are run down but they certainly do not have a big immigrant quotient despite being the closest point to mainland Europe.

In my experience, it's the areas with the least immigration that have the biggest problem with it. "Middle America" is a great example of this as is the recent outcome of the Clacton by-election. Parts of Thanet and indeed most run down historically important coastal towns which are now remnants of their former glory fall into this category. There's little employment and not much money locally which causes people to want to blame somebody or something. This "blame brigade" who somehow think they have no control over their own destiny find immigrants an easy target to turn to.

It is undeniable that Thanet has suffered a couple of blows like the departure of Pfizer from Sandwich and the shutting of Manston Airport. What either of those things have got to do with immigrants, I do not know. It does make you question why people think of it as such a big issue, especially in areas where it's a long way down the list.

Studying politics, I find it interesting to note how despite having parties much more based in ideology in this country, our parties have become more similar whilst in America, the Republicans and Democrats who on the face of it share a very similar heritage and basic values, are growing further and further apart. Especially since the rise of the Tea Party movement in the Republican party, from which I suppose it is possible to draw parallels with the rise of Ukip in this country.
 
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Tetchytyke

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If your wages are stagnant (so falling including inflation) or actually falling, falls in the cost of goods and services (which are mainly due to your wages falling) are no help to you. Ask anyone in the construction industry. Many trades are paid little more or even less than they were ten or twenty years ago.

This much is true. The issue is who gets the blame.

UKIP- bankrolled by billionaire bankers and led by a stockbroker- have precious little to say on why companies are forcing wages down and zero hours contracts up. They've even less to say on whether these companies should be acting more ethically and whether the Government should be forcing them to act ethically.

They've got plenty to say about "Poles stealing your jobs" though, especially to people in places like Clacton who've probably never met a foreigner in their lives.

It's fascinating how areas with high levels of xenophobia have the lowest levels of migration. Kent has an influx of barely 2000 people a year and it's a "swamping". There are suburbs in London that have a bigger influx of foreign immigrants than that.

If you are in the public or quasi public sector (ie rail industry) then national wages and annual pay rises (even if small) cushion you from this.

Annual pay rise? I wish. Same for t'missus, who's in the NHS. There was a recommended 1% payrise and the Tories said no.

The next day they could find money for an 11% payrise for MPs though. Funny that.
 
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ExRes

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Annual pay rise? I wish. Same for t'missus, who's in the NHS. There was a recommended 1% payrise and the Tories said no.

The next day they could find money for an 11% payrise for MPs though. Funny that.

Quite agree about the NHS, my daughter is a nurse

You should be a little more honest about the 11% rise for MPs, it isn't due to come into force until May 2015 and has been recommended by an independent watchdog, IPSA, not by the MPs themselves, many of whom have made their unhappiness quite clear

IPSA does not need the agreement of parliament, regardless of who is in power, to implement the increase
 

muz379

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The wage situation in the NHS is shocking with some members of staff in some roles getting 3% incremental payrises just because they have been in their job another year as a reward for "professional development " . Meanwhile a lot of those caring for the patients are getting a real terms cut .

I dont know how long people are expected to be able to deal with a real terms cut before they cannot afford to live anymore ?

You should be a little more honest about the 11% rise for MPs, it isn't due to come into force until May 2015 and has been recommended by an independent watchdog, IPSA, not by the MPs themselves, many of whom have made their unhappiness quite clear

IPSA does not need the agreement of parliament, regardless of who is in power, to implement the increase

Completely agree , as much as it is annoying that they are getting an 11% pay rise its not directly their making and many including my own MP have made their objection very clear
 

radamfi

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Does anyone have an idea of how well paid healthcare workers are in other EU countries?
 

ralphchadkirk

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Does anyone have an idea of how well paid healthcare workers are in other EU countries?

Some are better paid, some are worse paid.

Interesting that the independent pay body for MPs proposed a pay rise and were accepted, yet the independent pay body for the NHS that recommended a pay rise was ignored.
 
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ExRes

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Some are better paid, some are worse paid.

Interesting that the independent pay body for MPs proposed a pay rise and were accepted, yet the independent pay body for the NHS that recommended a pay rise was ignored.

As mentioned earlier, IPSA have the power to implement the MPs rise in May 2015 without agreement from the MPs themselves, I would assume that the NHS independent pay body does not have the same powers otherwise those that really deserve an increase would have had it 'forced' upon them
 
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