EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Phil.]

The country of my birth has betrayed me. It has destroyed the future I've been planning for for decades in good faith and thrown me to the wolves. So this country no longer deserves my support.

Oh do get a reality check you poor little chap.

 

[Phil.]

Yet.......
I hate Brexit...I remain hopeful but deep down I really hope it goes pear shaped and the Brexiteers are forced to eat their racist and nationalist drivel. I really do

Look get over it. Not all of us who voted out are racists and nationalists. The majority of those who are protesting are the rich well-off middle classes, most of the "brexiteers" are lower income working class. There's a story there somewhere.
Here they are in all their glory, Geldof, a Labour M.P. and other privileged people greeting a Newly fishing crew who sailed up the Thames to display their vote leave flags.

 

[ainsworth74]

Here they are in all their glory, Geldof, a Labour M.P. and other privileged people greeting a Newly fishing crew who sailed up the Thames to display their vote leave flags.

Were they actually gesturing at the fishing crew or was it actually famous working class man Nigel Farage?

 

[EM2]

...most of the "brexiteers" are lower income working class. There's a story there somewhere.

Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling, Arron Banks, Gisela Stuart, James Dyson, Sir Anthony Bamford, the founder of the pressure group The Taxpayers Alliance Matthew Elliott, City millionaire and Conservative donor Peter Cruddas, Stuart Wheeler, a Conservative-turned-UKIP donor, businessman Patrick Barbour, former Conservative treasurer and Dixons boss Lord Kalms, Christopher Foyle, the chairman of Foyles bookshop, Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok, John Caudwell, a philanthropist and co-founder of Phones4U.
All prominent figures in the Leave campaign. How many of them are lower income working class?

 

[backontrack]

Oh do get a reality check you poor little chap.

You seem to think that the Brexit vote was solely down to working-class people when you had guys like Arron Banks, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson in charge. High-profile donors and company CEOs supported Brexit, and you've got to realise that things aren't quite as rosy as you say they are. What about the impact that this vote will have on our young people? How will they be able to forge a career in Europe? Oh, wait, they'll find that nigh-on impossible unless they come from the right background. How about those of us who have strived to create a future for themselves, a future that has been destroyed by the referendum result? You didn't want radamfi to be able to voice their opinion so you tried to shut them down, you insulted them, and for what? I mean, seriously??!?! You're the one who needs the reality check, you need to see what's happening here. By all means vote and express your view but don't attack others for giving theirs.

You're talking about a guy who has threatened suicide in this thread before. So, for all our sakes, get a grip on what you post.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yet.......
I hate Brexit...I remain hopeful but deep down I really hope it goes pear shaped and the Brexiteers are forced to eat their racist and nationalist drivel. I really do

I hate Brexit too, but I'm fed up of the attitude of some Remainers.

Well done for the "nationalist/racist drivel" nonsense - EXACTLY that kind of rhetoric is the reason why so many working class white people shoved it right back up ye. It is so grossly counterproductive!

 

[AlterEgo]

Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling, Arron Banks, Gisela Stuart, James Dyson, Sir Anthony Bamford, the founder of the pressure group The Taxpayers Alliance Matthew Elliott, City millionaire and Conservative donor Peter Cruddas, Stuart Wheeler, a Conservative-turned-UKIP donor, businessman Patrick Barbour, former Conservative treasurer and Dixons boss Lord Kalms, Christopher Foyle, the chairman of Foyles bookshop, Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok, John Caudwell, a philanthropist and co-founder of Phones4U.
All prominent figures in the Leave campaign. How many of them are lower income working class?

Look at the voters - millions of them - and don't be so obtuse.

 

[EM2]

Look at the voters - millions of them - and don't be so obtuse.

Voters who were told what leaving would mean for them by those aforementioned.

 

[furnessvale]

Voters who were told what leaving would mean for them by those aforementioned.

Whereas ALL the remain voters carefully and independently weighed up all the pros and cons before coming to the conclusion that the EU was best?

No persuasion by Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg, Farron, various major company bosses (who have since altered their views), Carney etc, etc.?

 

[Dave1987]

Whereas ALL the remain voters carefully and independently weighed up all the pros and cons before coming to the conclusion that the EU was best?

No persuasion by Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg, Farron, various major company bosses (who have since altered their views), Carney etc, etc.?

The pound has collapsed since the vote. We import huge amounts into this country, prices rising across the board and may start to bite into people's disposable income this year. Would expect consumer confidence to take a hit this year and our economy is entirely reliant on consumer confidence and spending. Since OPEC have voted to cut production oil prices are on the rise as well, so will cost more and more for fuel. EU was far from perfect but was way better than the tax haven economy we are going to get.

 

[EM2]

Whereas ALL the remain voters carefully and independently weighed up all the pros and cons before coming to the conclusion that the EU was best?

No persuasion by Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg, Farron, various major company bosses (who have since altered their views), Carney etc, etc.?

No idea. But I'm not the one suggesting that Leave is a groundswell of lower income working class resentment. And if it is, where did that information by which they made their choice come from? Was it from other lower income working class people? Or was it from well-off, middle (and upper) class people, many of whom have never struggled to put food on the table or heat their home?

 

[PHILIPE]

I think the subject could be summed up like this - had the Remain won we would have accepted it and just carried on as now but because the Referendum result went the other way by reflecting the wishes of the 52%, some Remoaners don't want to accept it. Some Labour members, especially, objecting to Jeremy Corbyn's three line whip saying they must stand by their their constituents but this was not a General Election when we we vote for Constituency MPs.

 

[radamfi]

some Remoaners don't want to accept it

What if some of our lives will be ruined by a hard Brexit? Isn't that a good enough reason to "moan"?

 

[EM2]

I think the subject could be summed up like this - had the Remain won we would have accepted it and just carried on as now but because the Referendum result went the other way by reflecting the wishes of the 52%, some Remoaners don't want to accept it.

Would we? Does that 'we' include Nigel Farage?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
Mr Farage said he believed the Leave campaign were on course for victory.
But he said there would be resentment, particularly in the Conservative Party, if not, with claims the referendum will not have been a fair contest.
Number 10 said Mr Farage's comments showed he was losing the argument and was no longer confident of winning.
And Prime Minister David Cameron said it was a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, saying the UK had "referendums not Neverendums".
here are less than six weeks until voters go to the polls to decide whether they want the UK to stay in or leave the European Union.
The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."
Asked by the BBC about his Daily Mirror comments, Mr Farage said he was not admitting defeat in the referendum, saying: "I think we are going to win."
But he added: "If we were to lose narrowly, there'd be a large section, particularly in the Conservative Party, who'd feel the prime minister is not playing fair, that the Remain side is using way more money than the Leave side and there would be a resentment that would build up if that was to be the result."

 

[dosxuk]

I think the subject could be summed up like this - had the Remain won we would have accepted it and just carried on as now but because the Referendum result went the other way by reflecting the wishes of the 52%, some Remoaners don't want to accept it.

And Mr Farage would have just accepted it and just carried on? You know as well as I do, he wouldn't - he said as much in the early hours of the results coming in. A good number of people on both sides of the argument believe their way is the only way to prosperity for this nation. Recent actions of our Government have only served to polarise views rather than bringing the country together.

Some Labour members, especially, objecting to Jeremy Corbyn's three line whip saying they must stand by their their constituents but this was not a General Election when we we vote for Constituency MPs.

Many of these MPs stood in constituencies where there was a clear vote for Remain. By voting against their constituents, they could well be signing their own resignation notice. I for one won't be voting for any MP who votes to enact Article 50 because I don't think it's the right thing for this country, and Parliament / Government should be doing what's right for the country, even when that goes against what may be better for a number of individuals (to be clear, I have no problem with any leave supporter refusing to vote for an MP who votes against Article 50).

And anyway, you could say that, in theory, 48% of MPs should vote against it if they're truly representing the public.

 

[PHILIPE]

What if some of our lives will be ruined by a hard Brexit? Isn't that a good enough reason to "moan"?

It's not what form Brexit would take is what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the democratic vote.

 

[furnessvale]

And Mr Farage would have just accepted it and just carried on?

Of course he wouldn't. UKIP would have carried on with their campaign and either withered on the vine or flourished as the public decided.

The real question is, just how much notice a victorious remain side would have taken of him, no matter how small the majority, and why should a losing remain side expect any better treatment.

 

[EM2]

The real question is, just how much notice a victorious remain side would have taken of him, no matter how small the majority, and why should a losing remain side expect any better treatment.

Why should anyone take any notice of him at all, when he wasn't even a member of the official Leave campaign?

 

[dosxuk]

The real question is, just how much notice a victorious remain side would have taken of him, no matter how small the majority, and why should a losing remain side expect any better treatment.

If remain had won, would there be calls for UKIP to be barred from any further discussion, interaction or influence on our dealings with the EU? You know, like there are from the Leave camp now whenever it's suggested that Remain supporters should be considered or even involved when we find our new place in the world?

You want the remain supporters to accept the vote - start listening to their concerns, rather than going "pah! you lost! shut up!". Really, the way some people are treating this, you'd have thought Leave won with a landslide...

 

[furnessvale]

Why should anyone take any notice of him at all, when he wasn't even a member of the official Leave campaign?

Refer that one to dosxuk. He brought Farage into the conversation.

I am happy to substitute the whole leave campaign for the name Farage in my statement. It doesn't change the sentiments.

 

[EM2]

I am happy to substitute the whole leave campaign for the name Farage in my statement. It doesn't change the sentiments.

Sentiments that basically seem to say 'You lost. Suck it up', yet still no indication of what Remain will have to endure, because, as was pointed out previously, Leave could not give a coherent answer to what Leave actually means. Not even an outline of it, not even a sketch. Plenty of ideas, and ifs, buts and maybes, but nothing that says 'this is what you're going to get'. At least there might soon be some light shed on the matter with the White Paper.

 

[AlterEgo]

What if some of our lives will be ruined by a hard Brexit? Isn't that a good enough reason to "moan"?

"Ruined" how?

 

[radamfi]

"Ruined" how?

For example, if you plan for decades to retire to the EU but then it is no longer possible and you are stuck in the UK.

 

[Trog]

For example, if you plan for decades to retire to the EU but then it is no longer possible and you are stuck in the UK.

Could be a lucky escape you might have moved out there only to be told to leave, at great financial loss.

 

[AlterEgo]

For example, if you plan for decades to retire to the EU but then it is no longer possible and you are stuck in the UK.

I suppose that's a question of priorities.

I find it unlikely that, when all the dust settles, you will be prohibited from settling in Spain/Cyprus wherever. Maybe you'll need to do some paperwork, and get residency status, but I don't think it's the end of the dream!

If you really want to settle in the EU (rather than a particular country), as a British citizen you always have the option to reside in Ireland.

Do you have an Irish grandparent or parent (including NI)? If so, you are either entitled to become, or already are, an Irish citizen, like me. Even after Brexit I will still be an EU citizen and hold an EU passport. You can hold both British and Irish passports with no problem at all.

 

[radamfi]

I suppose that's a question of priorities.

I find it unlikely that, when all the dust settles, you will be prohibited from settling in Spain/Cyprus wherever. Maybe you'll need to do some paperwork, and get residency status, but I don't think it's the end of the dream!

If you really want to settle in the EU (rather than a particular country), as a British citizen you always have the option to reside in Ireland.

Do you have an Irish grandparent or parent (including NI)? If so, you are either entitled to become, or already are, an Irish citizen, like me. Even after Brexit I will still be an EU citizen and hold an EU passport. You can hold both British and Irish passports with no problem at all.

If Spanish/Polish/Dutch people are barred from the UK, isn't it likely that the reverse will be the case? I have no Irish background. Most British people have no dual citizenship possibilities with another EU country.

The worst case scenario was considered to be move to Ireland for a number of years and then gain Irish citizenship and then move on from there. That's not great if you are already quite old. But even that looks dodgy due to recent events.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I suppose that's a question of priorities.

I find it unlikely that, when all the dust settles, you will be prohibited from settling in Spain/Cyprus wherever. Maybe you'll need to do some paperwork, and get residency status, but I don't think it's the end of the dream!

I think you're being on the optimistic side. The truth is that we don't know what the situation will be. However, the UK Government has given no indication that it has any interest in protecting the rights of people who might wish to move in the future - it has repeatedly spoken only of protecting the rights of people who are already living abroad. That suggests to me that most likely, British citizens who don't already live in Europe will end up in the same situation as - say - Americans or Australians - able to visit Europe with a passport but not able to live there unless they apply for a residency visa. The problem then is that residency visas tend to only be issued for specific purposes, and come with requirements that you have to fulfill. I don't know the situation for European countries, but I am familiar with the UK - and for people from outside the EU, it's almost impossible to get a permanent residency visa for the UK unless you're either married to a UK resident (and only then if they are earning more than a certain amount) or have a certain qualifying job offer, or you've been given asylum. There's no path - for example - to come here to retire. I suspect European countries are less draconian, but even so, it's unlikely that just anyone would be able to apply for residency.

Given the hard Brexit that Theresa May seems to be fixed on, it seems to me almost certain that some people will be in practice prevented from living abroad in their chosen country. That may include not just people who have been planning to move, but people who have partners or families in Europe.

If you really want to settle in the EU (rather than a particular country), as a British citizen you always have the option to reside in Ireland.

Do you have an Irish grandparent or parent (including NI)? If so, you are either entitled to become, or already are, an Irish citizen, like me. Even after Brexit I will still be an EU citizen and hold an EU passport. You can hold both British and Irish passports with no problem at all.

That's great for you, but not so good for the majority who don't have an Irish parent or grandparent. For the majority of British citizens, the option of living in Ireland is still there (assuming the Irish Government doesn't decide to change it) - you can move to Ireland without legal restriction, and apply to become an Irish citizen after 5 years there. As a route to living in mainland Europe, that's somewhat convoluted to say the least!

 

[DarloRich]

If Spanish/Polish/Dutch people are barred from the UK, isn't it likely that the reverse will be the case? I have no Irish background. Most British people have no dual citizenship possibilities with another EU country.

The worst case scenario was considered to be move to Ireland for a number of years and then gain Irish citizenship and then move on from there. That's not great if you are already quite old. But even that looks dodgy due to recent events.

I honestly don't understand what you are worrying about. Assuming you to be of a fairly young age who knows what the world will look like when retirement comes around. It will be when we are all 94 anyway

 

[AlterEgo]

I think you're being on the optimistic side. The truth is that we don't know what the situation will be.

Maybe I am optimistic.

What is certainly true is that the world is much less predictable than it used to be. I'm sure not that many people saw Corbyn as Labour leader, Trump as president, Britain out of the EU and Leicester winning the Premier League, a couple of years back.

 

[Johnuk123]

Maybe I am optimistic.

What is certainly true is that the world is much less predictable than it used to be.

I have no idea how old you are but that statement would make people who lived through the cold war laugh.