EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Dave1987]

I am in the minority in that I believe that University is a good thing for people, not because it makes them better workers, but because it makes them better people.

If education is only about turning out workers, large parts of the population neednt go at all, or stop going after 11. You don't have to be literate or numerate to work on a production line, as my experience in the private sector has made painfully obvious.

Either we want to use education to produce better citizens, or it is an entirely pointless subsidy to big business to allow them to escape paying for staff training.

But I don't really think it is possible to send "too many" people to university.
My generation (and the one now appearing 'below me') have very little to look forward to except long lifespans.
Spending 3-4 years studying something which might not be useful for work is not a terrible misfortune.

Sorry but I don't think university makes students better people. In fact it can make some students pretentious and self entitled. The fact that we have a mass shortage of trades like brickies just shows how the massive focus on making out that not going to university is a massive mistake is now costing the economy. It is entirely possible to send too many to university. If everyone goes to uni then what do you do about vocational trades like plumbers and electricians? Are they not valuable to the economy? And I believe that your point of view that going to university is the be all sane end all is now why our economy is so disjointed. Because of the way our economy is means it's heavily dependent on services and consumer spending. I'm sure the chancellor is well aware that a massive shock like Brexit is likely to have a massive derisory effect on the economy with massive job losses. I think the stigma attached to not going to university is just wrong.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't think you're in a minority at all. The nation needs people with higher education, as I mentioned earlier industry is constantly bemoaning the lack of STEM skills in the workforce. And, as you said, the learning in university isn't all about what's in the books.

Really? I've known uni students fresh out of graduating who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing! But they know better just because they have a degree. :roll:

The nation needs a balance of people studying both at university and vocational courses and apprenticeships. There has been such a stigma attached to not going to uni we now have a very unbalanced economy with a mega over supply of graduates.

And those who aren't academically gifted, should they be destined to a life on the bread line, begging for scraps from the uni elite table just because they aren't academically gifted?

 

[najaB]

The nation needs a balance of people studying both at university and vocational courses and apprenticeships. There has been such a stigma attached to not going to uni we now have a very unbalanced economy with a mega over supply of graduates.

And those who aren't academically gifted, should they be destined to a life on the bread line, begging for scraps from the uni elite table just because they aren't academically gifted?

Perhaps you should read the recent posts before going on the attack. But since you appear to be too lazy to do so, allow me to fill you in:

Apprenticeships and vocational courses are far far more useful to the economy as a whole.

Both are equally valuable. The economy is suffering for a lack of STEM education and skills - apprenticeships are perfect for hands-on Technology and Engineering roles, but the Science and Maths roles need an academic education.

 

[Dave1987]

Perhaps you should read the recent posts before going on the attack. But since you appear to be too lazy to do so, allow me to fill you in:

Before you accuse me of being lazy maybe you ought to read what I posted. You still seem to make out that going to university for students is important for the economy. It isn't. We need a massive focus on getting students into apprenticeships or getting them into colleges. You will always get enough students applying for universities.

 

[najaB]

Before you accuse me of being lazy maybe you ought to read what I posted. You still seem to make out that going to university for students is important for the economy. It isn't. We need a massive focus on getting students into apprenticeships or getting them into colleges. You will always get enough students applying for universities.

Perhaps you need to read what I wrote: "Both [higher education and vocational training] are equally valuable."

 

[HSTEd]

Sorry but I don't think university makes students better people. In fact it can make some students pretentious and self entitled. The fact that we have a mass shortage of trades like brickies just shows how the massive focus on making out that not going to university is a massive mistake is now costing the economy. It is entirely possible to send too many to university. If everyone goes to uni then what do you do about vocational trades like plumbers and electricians? Are they not valuable to the economy? And I believe that your point of view that going to university is the be all sane end all is now why our economy is so disjointed. Because of the way our economy is means it's heavily dependent on services and consumer spending. I'm sure the chancellor is well aware that a massive shock like Brexit is likely to have a massive derisory effect on the economy with massive job losses. I think the stigma attached to not going to university is just wrong.

Doesn't that imply that people are merely cattle to be assigned to a task for the greatest benefit of 'the economy'?
Why should people be denied and good education and be told that there lot is to slave on a building site for the elite for the rest of their life.
The reason there is a shortage of these trades is because they baulk at paying the market rate for them. Additionally the insanity of the planning system has preserved obsolete site trades that would otherwise have been crushed by innovation.
Prefabricated houses that are engineered properly are far superior houses and cost a fraction to build but because houses are made artificially expensive there is little reason to adopt them. Instead they rely on workers who have been denied another path in life - thanks to them not having access to a high quality education.

If you pay them a reasonable market rate then you will obtain staff, be they graduates or no.
It's just like the situation for lorry drivers, its a horrible career and is relatively poorly paid, so very few people want to do it.

 

[EM2]

Why should people be denied and good education and be told that there lot is to slave on a building site for the elite for the rest of their life.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But if you educate everyone to get a 'good job', then someone still has to build the houses, pick the fruit, fill the shelves, make the coffee, clean the offices, wash the cars, resurface the roads and so on. So we need immigration.

 

[SteveP29]

What she was saying, and many others have said it without causing a public furore, is that immigrants are required to carry out the subservient roles that 'decent' people are too good for, now if that had been said by someone who had voted to leave then I'm sure it wouldn't have been swept gently aside by the media and the remain camp, would it?

This ^^

 

[SteveP29]

The reason there is a shortage of these trades is because they baulk at paying the market rate for them. Additionally the insanity of the planning system has preserved obsolete site trades that would otherwise have been crushed by innovation.

Undoubtedly there is some of that, but the market rate for those trades has been exacerbated by the fact that there is a shortage of them.

Supply and demand.

As was examined earlier in the thread, there wouldn't be enough people to take all of the jobs if EU nationals were to suddenly disappear overnight, therefore, wages would have to increase because demand outstrips supply, in exactly the same way, bricklayers, electricians and plumbers can increase their rates because the choice in the market is limited.

 

[AlterEgo]

Undoubtedly there is some of that, but the market rate for those trades has been exacerbated by the fact that there is a shortage of them.

Supply and demand.

As was examined earlier in the thread, there wouldn't be enough people to take all of the jobs if EU nationals were to suddenly disappear overnight, therefore, wages would have to increase because demand outstrips supply, in exactly the same way, bricklayers, electricians and plumbers can increase their rates because the choice in the market is limited.

It's not as simple as that. If all the EU nationals went overnight, there wouldn't be people qualified to do some of their jobs. In some cases the job may be done to a lower standard, therefore, and attract a lower, not higher wage.

 

[HSTEd]

It's not as simple as that. If all the EU nationals went overnight, there wouldn't be people qualified to do some of their jobs. In some cases the job may be done to a lower standard, therefore, and attract a lower, not higher wage.

A lot of these trades are not actually necessary to the construction of houses though.
For example the amount of labour required from electricians and plumbers can be significantly reduced by prefabrication. Indeed the BarnHaus people decided they could build a nice-finish house without requiring any wet plastering at all.

Innovations such as steel framing, beam and block concrete floors and self contained modular bus bars that have revolutionised the construction of shops and commercial buildings could cut the labour requirement to build a house drastically, and probably turn out higher quality product.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But if you educate everyone to get a 'good job', then someone still has to build the houses, pick the fruit, fill the shelves, make the coffee, clean the offices, wash the cars, resurface the roads and so on. So we need immigration.

A lot of these jobs could be automated away inside a major labour shortage crisis, for example car washing requires much less manpower with an automatic wash than with a handwashing facility.

But that is not the point that I am necessarily trying to make - what I am suggesting is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a university graduate doing all these jobs.

Why shouldn't I be able to debate the finer points of philosophy with a bricklayer, or the latest developments in high energy physics with the guy who is stacking the shelves in the supermarket.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And if anything, the whole "graduates are entitled" thing, if true, is the fault of the previous generation. Growing up through secondary school and sixth form, it was metaphorically beaten in to us that the best way of guaranteeing a good career and this a good life was by going to university. So you can't really blame the people who had that drilled into their skulls for 7+ years for wanting what they were initially sold once they leave university and being a little bit annoyed when they realise they were sold a lie.

 

[Dave1987]

A lot of these jobs could be automated away inside a major labour shortage crisis, for example car washing requires much less manpower with an automatic wash than with a handwashing facility.

But that is not the point that I am necessarily trying to make - what I am suggesting is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a university graduate doing all these jobs.

Why shouldn't I be able to debate the finer points of philosophy with a bricklayer, or the latest developments in high energy physics with the guy who is stacking the shelves in the supermarket.

So what about those people who are not academically gifted and who the universities of our country steer well clear of? You seem to to want to try and automate them out of any potential career.

 

[radamfi]

Getting immigrants to do low paid work is not just a UK thing. If you go to a fast food place in other northern European countries don't be surprised to hear the staff talking in English to each other. These places employ immigrants who haven't yet learned the local language sufficiently well.

Immigrants doing low paid work is sign of a high income economy. If locals are mostly doing it that means that they haven't got the choice of better paid work.

 

[Dave1987]

And if anything, the whole "graduates are entitled" thing, if true, is the fault of the previous generation. Growing up through secondary school and sixth form, it was metaphorically beaten in to us that the best way of guaranteeing a good career and this a good life was by going to university. So you can't really blame the people who had that drilled into their skulls for 7+ years for wanting what they were initially sold once they leave university and being a little bit annoyed when they realise they were sold a lie.

Ow indeed, but just look at how our economy is at the moment. Of the current Vauxhall takeover the plants in question have to import around 75% of the components from the EU for those assembly plants. Why ow why is that the case? Of those expensive new Hitachi trains at Newton Aycliffe yes some of the basic bits are made in the UK but all the high value parts are made in the EU. Why? Why has our manufacturing got to such an appalling state in this country? Why are entire communities utterly reliant on sole employers in their areas for their local economy to survive. It's an utterly diabolical state this country is in.

 

[meridian2]

It's not as simple as that. If all the EU nationals went overnight, there wouldn't be people qualified to do some of their jobs. In some cases the job may be done to a lower standard, therefore, and attract a lower, not higher wage.

I doubt whether anyone - on this forum at least - is advocating the removal of all EU nationals, and certainly not overnight. It would be politically disastrous and inhumane to remove anyone already here with retrospective rulings and migration taken in good faith. One of the concerns expressed in the referendum is the effect of uncontrolled EU immigration, not staging a pogrom. Only tyrannies practice zero migration or social cleansing, while lots of civilised nations have controlled migration, including the US. I would certainly foresee continued migration from the EU and elsewhere, and free movement of students in accredited educational establishments.

Even if university education reached 50% it would leave many millions of skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled in the workforce, and controlled migration policies would meet the rest. Bear in mind while free EU passage was in place Gurkhas who served in the British Army were not allowed UK immigration rights.

 

[EM2]

Why shouldn't I be able to debate the finer points of philosophy with a bricklayer, or the latest developments in high energy physics with the guy who is stacking the shelves in the supermarket.

No reason at all, except that the graduates don't want to do those jobs.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Immigrants doing low paid work is sign of a high income economy. If locals are mostly doing it that means that they haven't got the choice of better paid work.

...or that they haven't got a "choice" about it...

 

[meridian2]

And if anything, the whole "graduates are entitled" thing, if true, is the fault of the previous generation.

There was a time when graduates were entitled to highly paid work based on little more than their ability to attain a degree. Even lower down the chain Grammar school leavers gained junior jobs in banking and other professions disproportionate to any proven ability.

Now jobs like nursing and school teaching demand a degree, quite reasonably, which was never the case previously. Britain was not a meritocracy!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ow indeed, but just look at how our economy is at the moment. Of the current Vauxhall takeover the plants in question have to import around 75% of the components from the EU for those assembly plants. Why ow why is that the case? Of those expensive new Hitachi trains at Newton Aycliffe yes some of the basic bits are made in the UK but all the high value parts are made in the EU. Why? Why has our manufacturing got to such an appalling state in this country? Why are entire communities utterly reliant on sole employers in their areas for their local economy to survive. It's an utterly diabolical state this country is in.

1 - The reason is the shift of our economy from a manufacturing one to a service one that has happened over the last few decades.

2 - As for the whole "entire communities utterly reliant on sole employers in their areas for their local economy to survive" - that really is not a new thing at all. No where near. The entire community I grew up in was utterly reliant on British Coal for decades, and then has been constantly neglected since all the mines closed.

I doubt whether anyone - on this forum at least - is advocating the removal of all EU nationals, and certainly not overnight.

So why doesn't may actually come out and guarantee that then? She has bee repeatedly asked to do so and won't.

 

[meridian2]

So why doesn't may actually come out and guarantee that then? She has bee repeatedly asked to do so and won't.

I assume Whitehall have told her not to promise anything before negotiations take place. No one goes into a game of poker with one card showing, but I find it inconceivable that the UK would retrospectively change immigration policy, or that the EU will remove existing UK nationals from member states. The horse trading will operate at a higher level than that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There was a time when graduates were entitled to highly paid work based on little more than their ability to attain a degree. Even lower down the chain Grammar school leavers gained junior jobs in banking and other professions disproportionate to any proven ability.

Now jobs like nursing and school teaching demand a degree, quite reasonably, which was never the case previously. Britain was not a meritocracy!

Oh don't get me wrong, I more than know that (heard it enough times off one of my parents before he managed to realise that times have changed!)

But even ignoring that, if you spend a large amount of their education telling someone that doing X will help them massively in the future, and then they do X, you can't exactly turn around and complain when they start asking questions about why things are not as good as they were told they would be.

I assume Whitehall have told her not to promise anything before negotiations take place. No one goes into a game of poker with one card showing, but I find it inconceivable that the UK would retrospectively change immigration policy, or that the EU will remove existing UK nationals from member states. The horse trading will operate at a higher level than that.

The way I see it, that shouldn't even be part of the "game of poker". If, as you think, there is no real risk for EU citizens to be kicked out of the country for no reason after Brexit, then why not guarantee that? Surely, as there is no risk (again according to you), then it isn't even a negotiated platform because for something to work as leverage in a negotiation, the opposite side has to genuinely believe you are willing to pull the trigger, else they can just call your bluff too.

 

[HSTEd]

No reason at all, except that the graduates don't want to do those jobs.

Because the pay and conditions are awful.
Bricklayers and such jobs are physically arduous jobs conducted outside in all weathers and all seasons, which are dangerous and have a record of destroying the bodies of the people who do them.

Graduates would rather accept lower pay working in an office somewhere because it won't leave them a wreck by 50.
If you want people to become bricklayers you should make bricklaying an attractive proposition - not simply require people work in it because you've taken away any chance for them to do anything else.

So what about those people who are not academically gifted and who the universities of our country steer well clear of? You seem to to want to try and automate them out of any potential career.

The universities in this country (with one exception) are entirely organs of the state and will teach who the Government says they will teach.
I don't just want to discard them as worthless cattle that will be expected to serve the elite for a pittance, doing a job that in any sane world would be done by a machine.

I've done these jobs (shelf stacking, production line minion etc), they are bloody soul destroying - and I didn't have to do them day in day out for 50 years.
Spending eight hours a day poking little bits of plastic foam out of bigger pieces of plastic foam with a biro is not a career [the factory had a half a dozen people doing what one person with a hand operated press could do in half the time]. And that is what British manufacturing has degenerated into.

 

[meridian2]

The way I see it, that shouldn't even be part of the "game of poker". If, as you think, there is no real risk for EU citizens to be kicked out of the country for no reason after Brexit, then why not guarantee that? Surely, as there is no risk (again according to you), then it isn't even a negotiated platform because for something to work as leverage in a negotiation, the opposite side has to genuinely believe you are willing to pull the trigger, else they can just call your bluff too.

Even if a British PM was ideologically motivated to remove EU residents forcibly, and May is nothing of the sort IMO, the social and financial upheaval of doing so would be highly detrimental to the country. It would cost an absolute fortune to enforce as hundreds of thousands would slip the net, businesses would lose employees and EU "reprisals" would mean a movement of people not seen since the 1940s. The UK would become a pariah state internationally and a police state internally to achieve the goal. Compared to negotiating a time limit for unfettered immigration and a policy for controlled migration subsequently, kicking existing EU residents out would make no sense whatsoever.

 

[NSEFAN]

Even if a British PM was ideologically motivated to remove EU residents forcibly, and May is nothing of the sort IMO, the social and financial upheaval of doing so would be highly detrimental to the country. It would cost an absolute fortune to enforce as hundreds of thousands would slip the net, businesses would lose employees and EU "reprisals" would mean a movement of people not seen since the 1940s. The UK would become a pariah state internationally and a police state internally to achieve the goal. Compared to negotiating a time limit for unfettered immigration and a policy for controlled migration subsequently, kicking existing EU residents out would make no sense whatsoever.

Whilst I agree that kicking out current EU residents would be counter productive, I'm afraid I don't share the same optimism for May's way of doing things. Some of her decisions as home secretary do make me think that a police state would suit her quite well. Indeed, if she does decide to kick out existing EU residents (and cause serious economic problems), she can blame it on the referendum, given how blunt an instrument it has been so far. "I was only doing what the people asked, which was to break ties with the EU", etc.

 

[EM2]

...kicking existing EU residents out would make no sense whatsoever.

But it appears that that is what many Leave voters expected (and wanted).
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/65...nals-kicked-out-of-UK-if-nation-leaves-Europe

MORE than a quarter of British people want EU nationals to be KICKED OUT of the country in the event of Brexit, as huge numbers of immigrants scramble to secure UK citizenship in the lead-up to the referendum.
A recent poll revealed that 26% of respondents believe current immigrants should be forced out of the country should Britain vote to leave the European Union in June.

The online survey, run by polling company Voxter, comes as the number of EU nationals seeking UK citizenships continues to grow as immigrants desperately attempt to secure their futures in Britain before the 'open door' border policy potentially slams shut following a leave vote.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Even if a British PM was ideologically motivated to remove EU residents forcibly, and May is nothing of the sort IMO, the social and financial upheaval of doing so would be highly detrimental to the country. It would cost an absolute fortune to enforce as hundreds of thousands would slip the net, businesses would lose employees and EU "reprisals" would mean a movement of people not seen since the 1940s. The UK would become a pariah state internationally and a police state internally to achieve the goal. Compared to negotiating a time limit for unfettered immigration and a policy for controlled migration subsequently, kicking existing EU residents out would make no sense whatsoever.

So once again, if that is the case then why not guarantee that it won't happen?
To you it may be obvious that it won't. But people are having to put their lives on hold at the moment because of the uncertainty (it isn't the risk of being kicked out specifically, its the uncertainty around it all).

 

[meridian2]

Oh don't get me wrong, I more than know that (heard it enough times off one of my parents before he managed to realise that times have changed!)

I'd argue that the graduate position today is much more promising than the one in the late 1970s/early 80s. 40 years ago the UK was transitioning from a manufacturing to a service economy, and the shift took many years to achieve. Industries that soaked up graduates were shedding a workforce of millions, and its replacement was nowhere to be seen. London may have had Loadsamoney plumbers and the rise of the City yuppie, but much of the country was an industrial wasteland. UK labour went overseas in Auf Wiedersehen type movements, and graduates and skilled men in their 50s (including managers) were put on job creation schemes at £35 a week. When people point to house prices in 1980 compared to today - crazy as they are - they fail to take into account the financial landscape that created those prices.

The national and global economy for a 2017 graduate is infinitely more optimistic than the one I remember.

 

[EM2]

If you want people to become bricklayers you should make bricklaying an attractive proposition - not simply require people work in it because you've taken away any chance for them to do anything else.

So how do you make bricklaying, vegetable picking, tarmac laying and so on attractive?