EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[me123]

...you can hardly blame David Davis for nor having all the answers on tap.

Yeah, it's not like it's his job or anything.

Oh, wait...

 

[EM2]

...you can hardly blame David Davis for nor having all the answers on tap.

I can blame him for appearing to have done absolutely naff all since being appointed.

 

[najaB]

I'll wager 100% of readers knew what the poster meant.

Given that the political status of Northern Ireland v the Republic of Ireland has cost hundreds of lives, I think it's worth sticking to the agreed names.

 

[meridian2]

Given that the political status of Northern Ireland v the Republic of Ireland has cost hundreds of lives, I think it's worth sticking to the agreed names.

There are no agreed names. Loyalists refer to Northern Ireland, Republicans call the same geo-political entity The North of Ireland.

 

[Busaholic]

There are no agreed names. Loyalists refer to Northern Ireland, Republicans call the same geo-political entity The North of Ireland.

Loyalists mostly used to refer to Ulster, as in Ulster Unionists, Royal Ulster Constabulary, etc, and it is a sign of political progress that most are now prepared to say Northern Ireland: most Republicans, except the most diehard, were prepared to use the term Northern Ireland as I remember it, but never Ulster. Londonderry is still beyond the pale for Republicans, of course!

 

[meridian2]

Loyalists mostly used to refer to Ulster, as in Ulster Unionists, Royal Ulster Constabulary, etc, and it is a sign of political progress that most are now prepared to say Northern Ireland: most Republicans, except the most diehard, were prepared to use the term Northern Ireland as I remember it, but never Ulster. Londonderry is still beyond the pale for Republicans, of course!

Sinn Fein spokespeople generally refer to The North of Ireland. RoI inhabitants usually refer to "The North", as less problematic. Political names are reserved for "the Northern Ireland Assembly" and similar specificities.

 

[meridian2]

I can blame him for appearing to have done absolutely naff all since being appointed.

Far be it from me to support a member of the Tory party, but is there any evidence Davis has done nothing? One assumes all kinds of higher and lower limits of acceptability have been decided behind closed doors on a range of issues, none of which government spokesmen are going to allow the vaguest sniff of before negotiations.

 

[EM2]

Far be it from me to support a member of the Tory party, but is there any evidence Davis has done nothing?

I specifically said '...appearing to have done...'

 

[najaB]

There are no agreed names. Loyalists refer to Northern Ireland, Republicans call the same geo-political entity The North of Ireland.

Calling the Republic of Ireland 'Southern Ireland' isn't common though.

And I'd say it's particularly problematic as could be seen by Republicans as delegitimizing the status of the the republic - it's not 'proper' Ireland, it's Southern Ireland.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Calling the Republic of Ireland 'Southern Ireland' isn't common though.

And I'd say it's particularly problematic as could be seen by Republicans as delegitimizing the status of the the republic - it's not 'proper' Ireland, it's Southern Ireland.

I always use Eire

 

[AlterEgo]

Calling the Republic of Ireland 'Southern Ireland' isn't common though.

And I'd say it's particularly problematic as could be seen by Republicans as delegitimizing the status of the the republic - it's not 'proper' Ireland, it's Southern Ireland.

Many republicans see the current Republic as illegitimate. Irish history and nomenclature is a bit of a head melt.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Calling the Republic of Ireland 'Southern Ireland' isn't common though.

And I'd say it's particularly problematic as could be seen by Republicans as delegitimizing the status of the the republic - it's not 'proper' Ireland, it's Southern Ireland.

Some older folk still refer to Eire as the 'Free State' - again dependent on what community one hails from.

 

[meridian2]

I specifically said '...appearing to have done...'

Accompanied by the pejorative have "done absolutely naff all since being appointed". Hardly an objective enquiry into the nature of Davis's pre-negotiation schedule.

 

[EM2]

Accompanied by the pejorative have "done absolutely naff all since being appointed". Hardly an objective enquiry into the nature of Davis's pre-negotiation schedule.

Well, can you point to anything that he does appear to have done?

 

[AlterEgo]

I always use Eire

I always find it bizarre when non-Irish speakers use this term. Firstly, Eire is an Irish word and English speakers who use it wouldn't use "Norge" or España" in an everyday context.

Eire doesn't exclusively mean the RoI - it is literally Irish for "Ireland" and offers no additional clarity over saying "Ireland".

 

[meridian2]

Many republicans see the current Republic as illegitimate. Irish history and nomenclature is a bit of a head melt.

It is a minefield inside a labyrinth. One commonality among young Irish people of my acquaintance is the dismissal of the term Northern Ireland as anything substantial. This ranges from disapproval to bewilderment to amusement, but it's clear people in the South are still taught there's simply no such thing.

 

[meridian2]

Well, can you point to anything that he does appear to have done?

That is completely beside the point, which is that if he was doing his job properly we wouldn't know either way at this point. Scorn is premature, and best saved for after the negotiations.

 

[EM2]

That is completely beside the point, which is that if he was doing his job properly we wouldn't know either way at this point. Scorn is premature, and best saved for after the negotiations.

The Secretary Of State for Exiting the European Union, appeared in front of a Commons Select Committee, in an oral evidence session for the UK’s negotiating objectives for its withdrawal from the EU, and, by his own admission, has not done any work at all on a number vital issues.
When the purpose of the session is:

• Readiness for triggering Article 50 and negotiations for the UK to leave the EU
• The priorities for the Government as set out in the White Paper
• The Great Repeal Bill and how the Government is preparing to ensure a smooth and orderly exit from the EU

and the Secretary Of State cannot answer the questions put to him, I'd say scorn was a perfectly appropriate response.
And before you say that the Government won't reveal their negotiating objectives as it weakens their position, they've already released two 56-page reports.
You can read them here - http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...gotiating-objectives-for-eu-withdrawal-16-17/

 

[meridian2]

The Secretary Of State for Exiting the European Union, appeared in front of a Commons Select Committee, in an oral evidence session for the UK’s negotiating objectives for its withdrawal from the EU, and, by his own admission, has not done any work at all on a number vital issues.
When the purpose of the session is:

• Readiness for triggering Article 50 and negotiations for the UK to leave the EU
• The priorities for the Government as set out in the White Paper
• The Great Repeal Bill and how the Government is preparing to ensure a smooth and orderly exit from the EU

and the Secretary Of State cannot answer the questions put to him, I'd say scorn was a perfectly appropriate response.
And before you say that the Government won't reveal their negotiating objectives as it weakens their position, they've already released two 56-page reports.
You can read them here - http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...gotiating-objectives-for-eu-withdrawal-16-17/

The entire pre-negotiation churn is about how many concessions the UK should be prepared to give away before the fact. My position is some things can be taken as read, like reciprocal status for existing UK and EU citizens. However EU negotiators insisted nothing can be debated until Article 50 is enacted, which killed unilateral concessions stone dead. At this stage it's impossible to know whether Davis is playing poker with the committee, or doesn't know the answers. I assume his personal opinion on negotiations will be secondary to the deliberations of an army of Whitehall apparatchiks who will have views on the precise range of every law and policy under the Brussels sun, and its corresponding replacement.

 

[EM2]

At this stage it's impossible to know whether Davis is playing poker with the committee, or doesn't know the answers.

If it's the former, then he has misled the House and could be in serious trouble.

 

[radamfi]

Good news from the Netherlands at least. It doesn't look like they will be leaving the EU anytime soon.

 

[Trog]

Good news from the Netherlands at least. It doesn't look like they will be leaving the EU anytime soon.

I would say more like mixed news, politically the same result here would be something similar to UKIP being the second largest party and Labour being reduced to a second Liberal party. Myself I am pleased that a party that from what little I know of it appears to have an overly simplistic view of what is good and evil, has not won an election, but as second largest party they are still going to have a lot of influence.

From a UK only perspective some disarray in the EU could have been to our advantage in the negotiations to come. But having such a party in charge of a neighbouring country would be a disadvantage.

 

[radamfi]

but as second largest party they are still going to have a lot of influence.

Not really as the other parties can easily make a coalition without them. They got far fewer seats than the polls predicted.

 

[radamfi]

politically the same result here would be something similar to UKIP being the second largest party and Labour being reduced to a second Liberal party.

It is much less black and white in the Netherlands with the parties being shades of left and right. One particular left party (the closest equivalent to UK Labour) did particularly badly, but socialist, green and progressive parties did better.

 

[meridian2]

From a UK only perspective some disarray in the EU could have been to our advantage in the negotiations to come.

Yes, the way the EU responds to populist national politics will be a mark of its ultimate intentions. If it replies with reactionary, punishment negotiations, doubters will have been proved correct over its expansionist federalist agenda, and the UK is well out of it. If the EU is conciliatory, Brexiteers may have over-egged the uncompromising nature of the European Union.

 

[EM2]

but it's clear people in the South are still taught there's simply no such thing.

And the South is a term that they never use.

 

[meridian2]

And the South is a term that they never use.

Irony is obviously not your strong point.

 

[EM2]

Irony is obviously not your strong point.

Maybe not.
But why do you insist on referring to a country by a name that is not either of its recognised names, nor a name that its population use?
I'll just call you 'claptrap' from now on. It's not your recognised name on the forum, it's not the name you use but I've decided to use it.

 

[meridian2]

Maybe not.
But why do you insist on referring to a country by a name that is not either of its recognised names, nor a name that its population use?
I'll just call you 'claptrap' from now on. It's not your recognised name on the forum, it's not the name you use but I've decided to use it.

That's fine by me. I still say you don't know a synecdoche from a sinecure.

 

[EM2]

That's fine by me. I still say you don't know a synecdoche from a sinecure.

The former is a figure of speech, the latter is a job requiring no effort.
Got an 'A' for English Language, me.

The thing is, you're playing the man, not the ball. You're not putting up any argument as to why you refer to the Republic of Ireland as 'The South' or 'Southern Ireland'.