EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Muttley]

Things change, the world changes. That is life.

Yes, I agree.
But as JCollins said, he voted LibDem in '10 in the full knowledge there'd be another vote 5yrs down the line.
Cameron made it clear that this was a once in a generation vote.
I suspect many people didn't like this idea, especially taking into account where we travelled in the previous 40yrs.
As you say, things change.

 

[EM2]

... that has manifestly changed to "ever closer political union".

Which the UK is exempt from.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Regardless of that can anyone name one recent conflict where British army personnel have been involved and another European army haven't been on the same side? Our troops always seem to be on the front line with French troops even though there's no 'European army.' Maybe a 'European army' would mean Britain wouldn't need to send so many troops at our expense every time there's a conflict as other EU countries would have to do more.

the difference between a European army and the UK army co-operating with other European nation armies is simple... whilst we co-operate then ultimately it is our parliament, and therefore by extension us the electorate, who decides whether we fight or not.... if we were part of a European army then we as a nation would have no say in which wars we fight... unless of course you are totally delusional and believe that we would get an equal say on what wars we fight... sadly you only have to look at how the European economy operates to see who would have the real control of a European army.... and if you think that's a good idea just look at what happened the last 2 times that country had a strong "European" army!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The Brexit Secretaries were David Davis and Dominic Raab, neither known for their Remainiac views. Project fear warned at the start that the EU would not give us a good deal. They did not. When Davis couldn't get the deal he wanted, and was never going to get, he quit. Like most of the cowardly Brexiteers, who prefer to agitate from the outside, rather than stand up and take responsibility. For the majority leading the country into leave this has all been about themselves, their personal wealth and the wealth of their associates. They do not care about the country, the economy or the vast majority of the population whose quality of life will be greatly reduced for the sake of blue passports and "taking back control".

oh dear yet another remoaner casting aspertions about a Brexiteers actions... so David Davis quit when he couldn't get his own way did he? and what about the person who led us into this mess? Anyone heard a squeak from David Cameron since he lost the argument? no that's right... he lost and scurried off into the night with his tail between his legs and left it to everyone else to sort out the mess he'd made....

 

[DarloRich]

oh dear yet another remoaner casting aspertions about a Brexiteers actions... so David Davis quit when he couldn't get his own way did he? and what about the person who led us into this mess? Anyone heard a squeak from David Cameron since he lost the argument? no that's right... he lost and scurried off into the night with his tail between his legs and left it to everyone else to sort out the mess he'd made....

according to Sir Simon Fraser that is exactly what happened with Davis. As for Cameron the coward.....................

( hang on - Fraser is an expert. Discount his view immediately. We don't need experts do we?)

the difference between a European army and the UK army co-operating with other European nation armies is simple... whilst we co-operate then ultimately it is our parliament, and therefore by extension us the electorate, who decides whether we fight or not.... if we were part of a European army then we as a nation would have no say in which wars we fight... unless of course you are totally delusional and believe that we would get an equal say on what wars we fight... sadly you only have to look at how the European economy operates to see who would have the real control of a European army.... and if you think that's a good idea just look at what happened the last 2 times that country had a strong "European" army!

the last sentence reveals the fantasy land many Brexit lovers inhabit. That the Germans will control Europe by political means because they failed to do so militarily and we will be reduced to a colonial status.

It is interesting that as soon as the UK leaves the EU the prospect of a European Army seriously appears. Do you think we might have had something to do with that not happening before?

However to admit that means a central point of brexit ideology, that the UK had no influence on Europe, is proved to be bunkum.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Anyone heard a squeak from David Cameron since he lost the argument? no that's right... he lost and scurried off into the night with his tail between his legs and left it to everyone else to sort out the mess he'd made....

I'm glad that you agree it's a mess!

 

[nlogax]

Aaaand...Amber Rudd is back, this time as Work & Pensions secretary.

Keep your phones handy, any one of us may get the call to be Brexit secretary.

 

[DarloRich]

Aaaand...Amber Rudd is back, this time as Work & Pensions secretary.

Keep your phones handy, any one of us may get the call to be Brexit secretary.

I have turned it down already.

 

[dgl]

I'll be PM if the jobs going, leavers would no like my main policy though, however sensible it would be.

As for this mess, I can't currently see a good way out and whilst I would like to say May go and another referendum I don't know who would replace her.
Personally I would like Gordon Brown to com back as the labour leader then we might just have a credible opponent, yes he wasn't perfect but he brought us many years of budget surplus and stopped the country completely tanking when we had the financial crisis.

As for Cameron, if anyone needed exiling to another country very far away it is him, if he hadn't been so weak and stood up to UKIP no pandering to them with the referendum then I think, nee. know we would be in a much better place.

All this nationalism gets us nowhere, name a single country where nationalism has been a success? thought not, just a few tin pot dictators that live the life of luxury whilst their subjects struggle to eat, something Brexit is starting to look a lot like with Rees Mog as the figurehead.

 

[Howardh]

Let's see, May could use the SNP votes to get the deal through. How to do that? Exchange their support for an indyref in a few years time - guaranteed. So Bonnie Scotland gets the best of two deals, a few years to test out Brexit, and if they don't like it and indyref to get themselves back in the EU.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

the last sentence reveals the fantasy land many Brexit lovers inhabit. That the Germans will control Europe by political means because they failed to do so militarily and we will be reduced to a colonial status.

It is interesting that as soon as the UK leaves the EU the prospect of a European Army seriously appears. Do you think we might have had something to do with that not happening before?

However to admit that means a central point of brexit ideology, that the UK had no influence on Europe, is proved to be bunkum.

not a fantasy at all... the evidence is there... which country in Euroland is it that dictates the terms of bailouts to the likes of Italy Greece etc? why the Germans! which country's economy is the one that the Euroland policies are designed to protect? why the Germans! is this fantasy? no it's fact as shown by Euro history over the last 29yrs.. so why would a European army be any different?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

All this nationalism gets us nowhere, name a single country where nationalism has been a success? thought not, just a few tin pot dictators that live the life of luxury whilst their subjects struggle to eat, something Brexit is starting to look a lot like with Rees Mog as the figurehead.

countries that protect their national identity and sovereignty with fanaticism... USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, New 2ealand, Norway... any tin pot dictatorships there?

 

[furnessvale]

Which the UK is exempt from.

Given that the others are engaged in ever closer political union, at what point would the UK exemption mean that we were effectively "out", but of course still paying in and subject to all the rules?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Given that the others are engaged in ever closer political union, at what point would the UK exemption mean that we were effectively "out", but of course still paying in and subject to all the rules?

according to the "good deal" May and Raab have "negotiated" that will be March 2019 won't it?

 

[furnessvale]

according to the "good deal" May and Raab have "negotiated" that will be March 2019 won't it?

Quite possibly, but my comment was really aimed at the idea that a UK opt out from "ever closer political union" would somehow insulate a UK (remaining in the EU) from the actions of the others.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

tbh I blame Angela Merkel for Brexit... her invite to a million "refugees" of free passage to Germany wasn't exactly a wise move considering the anxiety about uncontrolled immigration that was prevalent at the time of the Brexit debate....

 

[DarloRich]

not a fantasy at all... the evidence is there... which country in Euroland is it that dictates the terms of bailouts to the likes of Italy Greece etc? why the Germans! which country's economy is the one that the Euroland policies are designed to protect? why the Germans! is this fantasy? no it's fact as shown by Euro history over the last 29yrs.. so why would a European army be any different?

dear me. Lets leave it there. The conspiracy theories are unhelpful

 

[greyman42]

Let's see, May could use the SNP votes to get the deal through. How to do that? Exchange their support for an indyref in a few years time - guaranteed. So Bonnie Scotland gets the best of two deals, a few years to test out Brexit, and if they don't like it and indyref to get themselves back in the EU.

Assuming that the EU would allow an independent Scotland to join?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

dear me. Lets leave it there. The conspiracy theories are unhelpful

why? because you know I'm right? that the facts of history and how other areas of the EU work proves the theory highly likely? it's not a conspiracy theory.... Greece needed a bailout the EU agreed to a bailout on the terms specified by Germany... and the bailout was NOT designed to be beneficial to the Greeks or their economy... same happened with Spain, Italy, Portugal.. they were all bailed out on terms set by Germany and the European Federal Bank... based in Germany.... so tell Me what bit of that is conspiracy theory and what is fact....

I quite well remember in 1989 with the euphoria of the Berlin Wall falling... My first comment was that Germany would reunite and then would be an unstoppable force and would kick the rest of Europe around... does anyone really want to PROVE that the EU policies don't revolve around what is best for the German economy?

 

[EM2]

Greece needed a bailout the EU agreed to a bailout on the terms specified by Germany...

If you were quite well-off, thanks to having been financially prudent in running a business, and had a mate whose business you knew was short of cash because he didn't collect what he was due, and he asked for a loan, wouldn't you want to specify the terms too?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If you were quite well-off, thanks to having been financially prudent in running a business, and had a mate whose business you knew was short of cash because he didn't collect what he was due, and he asked for a loan, wouldn't you want to specify the terms too?

THAT isn't the point though is it? the question I was addressing is whether Germany controls the EU... did Germany specify the terms of the bailouts? yes! so who's tune does Europe dance to? oh that'll be the German's then...

 

[NSEFAN]

THAT isn't the point though is it? the question I was addressing is whether Germany controls the EU... did Germany specify the terms of the bailouts? yes! so who's tune does Europe dance to? oh that'll be the German's then...

Even if this is true, it needn't be a malicious thing. Perhaps the other nations simply aren't organised enough to help keep the thing together and actually sort out the messes made by some of the other members.

 

[EM2]

THAT isn't the point though is it? the question I was addressing is whether Germany controls the EU... did Germany specify the terms of the bailouts? yes! so who's tune does Europe dance to? oh that'll be the German's then...

No, they didn't. Read Robert Peston's 'How Do We Fix This Mess?' for a detailed explanation.

 

[507021]

why? because you know I'm right? that the facts of history and how other areas of the EU work proves the theory highly likely? it's not a conspiracy theory.... Greece needed a bailout the EU agreed to a bailout on the terms specified by Germany... and the bailout was NOT designed to be beneficial to the Greeks or their economy... same happened with Spain, Italy, Portugal.. they were all bailed out on terms set by Germany and the European Federal Bank... based in Germany.... so tell Me what bit of that is conspiracy theory and what is fact....

I quite well remember in 1989 with the euphoria of the Berlin Wall falling... My first comment was that Germany would reunite and then would be an unstoppable force and would kick the rest of Europe around... does anyone really want to PROVE that the EU policies don't revolve around what is best for the German economy?

Germany contributes the most money to the European Union's budget. Between 2014 and last year, Germany's share of the EU budget contributions was 21%.

May I ask where you heard that EU policies revolve around what's best for the German economy?

 

[dgl]

Quite simply, if I take out a loan then it is the loan company that sets the loan conditions, not the receiver.

Greece proved that it was unable to manage it's finances properly so when a bailout was needed it was clear that someone would have to set out conditions and it's only fair that the majority lender (and the only one with the ready cash to do so, and therefore probably deemed most financially prudent) to set the terms

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Quite simply, if I take out a loan then it is the loan company that sets the loan conditions, not the receiver.

Greece proved that it was unable to manage it's finances properly so when a bailout was needed it was clear that someone would have to set out conditions and it's only fair that the majority lender (and the only one with the ready cash to do so, and therefore probably deemed most financially prudent) to set the terms

and how does that refute my argument that the EU economy is controlled in such a way that it is advantage Germany? in fact all you have done is try to justify 27 countries economies being manipulated to suit 1 economy...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Germany contributes the most money to the European Union's budget. Between 2014 and last year, Germany's share of the EU budget contributions was 21%.

May I ask where you heard that EU policies revolve around what's best for the German economy?

funny enough I didn't hear it anywhere... I've just kept my eyes wide open since 1989... and sad to say I've seen my prediction come true

 

[trash80]

So basically you decided in 1989 Germany would dominate Europe and now just cherry pick the evidence to suit your theory. Ok then.

 

[507021]

funny enough I didn't hear it anywhere... I've just kept my eyes wide open since 1989... and sad to say I've seen my prediction come true

So basically your argument is based on a personal theory and nothing more.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So basically you decided in 1989 Germany would dominate Europe and now just cherry pick the evidence to suit your theory. Ok then.

not at all.. I made a prediction based on the evidence of history... and then watched the prediction come true... if you think I am cherry picking evidence please feel free to give examples where EU policy has been agreed to to the detriment of the German economy in the last 20 odd years...