EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[ainsworth74]

Could we mot have tried this 18 months ago?

You know I think when the book(s) is written on this that will be the most interesting question. Why did, on the back of a referendum which was only won by a narrow majority on a fairly vague question, she decide to knuckle down and set a series of red lines and not engage with anyone on what to do next? Why did she decide not to hold any sort of meaningful dialoge with anyone in Parliament before triggering Article 50?

That's the thing I most want to know.

 

[Senex]

Interesting statement, wasn't it? She's still on about the Brexit the British people voted for, and she ended with a couple of clauses about restoring national unity—the very unity in which she's shewn not the slightest interest since she took over as PM. The offer to talk just to Corbyn makes her idea of co-operation a very English one, involving just the very traditional idea of talking to the Leader of the Opposition. Scotland and its interests are effectively left out of the reckoning, even though it is supposed to be a nation with major devolved powers and it is the one of the four nations that voted strongly to remain. Presumably trying to get national unity doesn't matter if it's just the Scots ....
I overheard Nick Boles being interviewed on the radio earlier (I think it must have been R4 PM, but I'm not sure). He appeared to be saying almost that the last straw for him was that he was able to talk to and get some co-operation and support from members of opposition parties in trying to work with the indicative votes but nothing at all from members of his own party.

 

[404250]

Workers rights & customs Union agreed with Corbyn, then her deal gets through and they both take credit. Corbyn might rather just let her fail though.

 

[Groningen]

The believe in the Netherlands is that some ministers will resign. Talks with Corbyn and less attention to the DUP if i correctly remember the voice from London on our radio.

 

[DarloRich]

Workers rights & customs Union agreed with Corbyn, then her deal gets through and they both take credit. Corbyn might rather just let her fail though.

Or it is a double bluff to damage Corbyn before blaming him for failure and calling an election

 

[DarloRich]

You know I think when the book(s) is written on this that will be the most interesting question. Why did, on the back of a referendum which was only won by a narrow majority on a fairly vague question, she decide to knuckle down and set a series of red lines and not engage with anyone on what to do next? Why did she decide not to hold any sort of meaningful dialoge with anyone in Parliament before triggering Article 50?

That's the thing I most want to know.

Agreed entirely. I suspect this will be shown to be pig headed stubbornness rather than some vast conspiracy

 

[Howardh]

Or it is a double bluff to damage Corbyn before blaming him for failure and calling an election

Nailed in one, pass the buck. If Brexit goes well, it's the Tories, if it goes badly it's because it was Labours. Corbyn should tell her where to put her Brexit.
On the other hand, it will be a wonderful sight looking at the ERG's faces tonight. To quote a phrase, "up yours".

 

[thejuggler]

I overheard Nick Boles being interviewed on the radio earlier (I think it must have been R4 PM, but I'm not sure). He appeared to be saying almost that the last straw for him was that he was able to talk to and get some co-operation and support from members of opposition parties in trying to work with the indicative votes but nothing at all from members of his own party.

It was PM.

He also said when the time comes for a new Tory leader none of the MPs who have been in Cabinet since 2017 should be allowed to stand.

 

[nlogax]

All the talk in 2016 of her being a 'bloody difficult woman'. Turns out she's just bloody stupid.

 

[404250]

Turns out everything about "my deal or no deal" was false. That goes along with the countless MPs who said the referendum was the final say that we couldn't get back from but now won't back anything until they get a 2nd referendum.
Can't believe anything politicians say.

 

[Howardh]

Turns out everything about "my deal or no deal" was false. That goes along with the countless MPs who said the referendum was the final say that we couldn't get back from but now won't back anything until they get a 2nd referendum.
Can't believe anything politicians say.

Everything that's been said has been turned upside down.
The big three are the calling of the election when she said she wouldn't, then "we are leaving on March 29th" (chorkle) and, whoops, and now she's throwing away her red lines and asking for Labour's Brexit (better than May's deal but worse than remaining). There are probably loads more "nothing has changed" etc.

 

[robk23oxf]

I've experienced recently the negative effects of this referendum and the aftermath. I know people who voted leave who have turned into what can only be described as bullies towards remain voters like myself. I try not to get drawn into arguments, I accept that we all have our differences and half the country wants one thing and the half wants something else which isn't an ideal situation. This referendum has brought out the very worst in some people which is tragic. I just hope that for everyone's sake things work out for the United Kingdom but I'm afraid the damage has already been done.

 

[404250]

If we end up with a soft Brexit and the economy goes tits up, leave voters will blame the soft deal and remainers will blame Brexit itself. Vice versa if the economy grows. The arguments will never end.

 

[bramling]

I've experienced recently the negative effects of this referendum and the aftermath. I know people who voted leave who have turned into what can only be described as bullies towards remain voters like myself. I try not to get drawn into arguments, I accept that we all have our differences and half the country wants one thing and the half wants something else which isn't an ideal situation. This referendum has brought out the very worst in some people which is tragic. I just hope that for everyone's sake things work out for the United Kingdom but I'm afraid the damage has already been done.

I agree the damage has been done, things are going to take a long time to heal.

Unfortunately I’m not surprised. Before the dust had even settled on the morning after the referendum we were hearing people say things like “we don’t have to have this”. Since then we’ve heard everything under the sun aimed at leave voters, from they didn’t know what they were voting for, to leave voters are less well educated, through to leave voters being xenophobic. Meanwhile, a batch of MPs who have never really bought into it, but were presumably happy to stand on a leave manifesto in 2017. Add into this one party leader angling for a general election as his shot to nothing to get into power, and another who will angle for a certain other referendum at any cost.

The one thing I’ll say is that of the people I associate with, generally those that support leave tend to be by far the nicer kinder people. I can only speak from experience, however a disproportionate number of remain supporters I associate with are complete nasty pieces of work, the types who don’t have enough shoulders upon which to rest all their various chips.

The country needs to decent leader to pull things together, but good leadership talent is in short supply at the moment. All the parties are really scraping the barrel at the moment in that respect.

 

[404250]

Corbyn seems deeply unpopular, though I prefer him and his ideas to Blair and any of the current New Labour type MPs. It would have been better for Labour to let May's deal pass at the 1st opportunity and then attack the Tories after Brexit than this mess. Going back on their manifesto promise to honour the referendum won't do them any favours.

 

[Cowley]

Corbyn seems deeply unpopular, though I prefer him and his ideas to Blair and any of the current New Labour type MPs. It would have been better for Labour to let May's deal pass at the 1st opportunity and then attack the Tories after Brexit than this mess. Going back on their manifesto promise to honour the referendum won't do them any favours.

Blair will always be tainted with the Iraq War/Weapons of mass destruction debacle (and New Labour being blamed by Tories for the global financial crash).
But Blair would’ve run rings around this current shower.
Eviction proceedings would be well under way for the squatter in Number 10 if Labour were anything like a decent reasonably centreish opposition right now.

 

[dosxuk]

The one thing I’ll say is that of the people I associate with, generally those that support leave tend to be by far the nicer kinder people. I can only speak from experience, however a disproportionate number of remain supporters I associate with are complete nasty pieces of work, the types who don’t have enough shoulders upon which to rest all their various chips

You clearly know a different caliber of leave and remain supporters. My experience is the total opposite.

 

[bramling]

You clearly know a different caliber of leave and remain supporters. My experience is the total opposite.

Even if one looks at some of the remain politicians, there’s some pretty repellant characters there. Bitter George Osborne, discredited Tony Blair and his “sex up the dossier” spin doctor, and slimy Michael Heseltine, just to think of the first handful which spring to mind. I’d put John Major in the same box too.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Even if one looks at some of the remain politicians, there’s some pretty repellant characters there. Bitter George Osborne, discredited Tony Blair and his “sex up the dossier” spin doctor, and slimy Michael Heseltine, just to think of the first handful which spring to mind. I’d put John Major in the same box too.

Repellent characters.....

Farage

Gove

Johnson

Rees-Mogg

Mark Francois

Michael Fabricant

 

[Cowley]

Repellent characters.....

Farage

Gove

Johnson

Rees-Mogg

Mark Francois

Michael Fabricant

Yes, but it’s ok because Chris Grailing is on their side too (along with Putin, Trump, etc)

 

[Cowley]

Clearly these are people we should be listening to.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting times.

Moving to a softer brexit means ditching the DUP, who voted against everything yesterday so are unlikely to accept anything that includes May's withdrawal agreement with its backstop (even though this could eventually lead to something they can actually live with). So if Corbyn calls a no-confidence vote the day after whatever is agreed, the DUP, even more angry than usual, will support them and bring down the government.

Anyone for confidence and supply agreement with Labour?

 

[Howardh]

Even if one looks at some of the remain politicians, there’s some pretty repellant characters there. Bitter George Osborne, discredited Tony Blair and his “sex up the dossier” spin doctor, and slimy Michael Heseltine, just to think of the first handful which spring to mind. I’d put John Major in the same box too.

The same Micheal Heseltine who walked out because Thatcher wouldn't give a contract to a British firm? He's done more for the UK than any of those ERG lunatics who want to sell us all off to the US. maybe that's what you want?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one thing I’ll say is that of the people I associate with, generally those that support leave tend to be by far the nicer kinder people. I can only speak from experience, however a disproportionate number of remain supporters I associate with are complete nasty pieces of work, the types who don’t have enough shoulders upon which to rest all their various chips.

That's quite interesting, I don't really find that people of either side I associate with are nasty (though I do find the majority of Leavers I associate with are incredibly misinformed, though not all of them). But that's mainly because I don't choose to associate with nasty people, by and large, and I'm sure you're the same.

 

[507021]

I've experienced recently the negative effects of this referendum and the aftermath. I know people who voted leave who have turned into what can only be described as bullies towards remain voters like myself. I try not to get drawn into arguments, I accept that we all have our differences and half the country wants one thing and the half wants something else which isn't an ideal situation. This referendum has brought out the very worst in some people which is tragic. I just hope that for everyone's sake things work out for the United Kingdom but I'm afraid the damage has already been done.

Excellent post.

 

[furnessvale]

That's quite interesting, I don't really find that people of either side I associate with are nasty (though I do find the majority of Leavers I associate with are incredibly misinformed, though not all of them). But that's mainly because I don't choose to associate with nasty people, by and large, and I'm sure you're the same.

Isn't that contrary to perceived remainer logic?

How can anyone be both informed AND a Brexiter?

 

[fowler9]

Does anyone know why the DUP don't support the customs union? It seems to offer a route to avoid the backstop, although there may be some details to be filled in. Instead they voted against everything - perhaps saying no is just their default behaviour.

Do we get the chance to find out whether combining the CU with a referendum would get over the line?

The DUP make the ERG look almost reasonable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The DUP make the ERG look almost reasonable.

Of course if May accepts that a GE is next, then the DUP can go do what they like as long as enough of Labour supports the deal.

 

[dosxuk]

Isn't that contrary to perceived remainer logic?

How can anyone be both informed AND a Brexiter?

I'm pretty sure Rees-Mogg knows what he's up to.

 

[Howardh]

Isn't that contrary to perceived remainer logic?

How can anyone be both informed AND a Brexiter?

Put it this way, how well have Brexiters done in the last 30 months? As in..they are now relying on the worst opposition leader ever (and that includes Millibland) to get their lil' old deal through??