EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Enthusiast]

All racists and xenophobes are supporters of Brexit but not all supporters of Brexit are racists and xenophobes.

I didn't suggest they were. I was simply suggesting to one of our correspondents who had suggested that he had "..never spoken to a Brexitist who isn't a moron or, at the very least, stratospherically ill-informed." that he might widen his circle of acquaintances. He suggested that "Brexitists are predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick." That suggests that most of 17.4m people fall into that category. I find that insulting and would do so even if I were not among their number myself.

As for Mr Martin, I was using him as an example of a Leaver who is neither thick nor racist. He qualified as a barrister and has built a very successful business. Anybody who built that sort of business from scratch cannot be thick and nor, might I suggest, would he have got very far if he was racist. Common sense was not mentioned. Leavers were branded as predominantly "thick". I interpret that as being unintelligent or badly educated. I don't believe Mr Martin is either of those - though I would hazard a guess that he is not too deficient in that department either. The fact that his establishments are not to everybody's taste is neither here nor there. But he must be doing something right because his business is very profitable. But then I suppose, until the millions that are about to be thrown out of work start frequenting them, his customers are probably predominantly thick racist Leavers.

I'm afraid that our friend Tetchytyke has done himself no favours. We all have different points of view and different reasons for voting the way we did. One side was going to lose. But if you want your argument to retain any integrity you don't insult a large number of people simply because you disagree with them. Most of my friends (none of them thick racists) are Leavers but some are Remainers. We've had some robust discussions over the last three years (some of them in one or two of Mr Martin's "scummy" establishments in London's City and West End) but we have always remained civil, never resorted to the type of insults and parted as the good friends that we've always been. I've been dipping in and out of this thread for a while and the debate has always been robust but in the main civil. But the recent remarks make me wonder whether, like the Brexit saga, it has run its course.

 

[Doppelganger]

Both sides need to be part of constructing any deal going forward or there will be a horrible shift in one direction.

If that were the case then we wouldn't be having the hardest of hard Brexits. There has been zero compromise from the hard line Brexiteers and they have very successfully excluded anyone else from their little project, so quite frankly they want it, they can have it.

When even Javid has no clue how businesses should be preparing, it's a little rich to expect everyone else to muck in.

 

[BlueFox]

More likely the younger pro-Europeans will discover Brexit didn't turn out to be the total apocalypse it was predicted to be (e.g. no WWIII),

Remainers didn't predict WWIII. Boris Johnson claimed Cameron had said it. But it was another of Johnson's lies.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Meanwhile a new cohort of young people will emerge who have never experienced life under EU membership and will grow up wondering what all the fuss was about.

I'll be here to remind them what we did have. They can take a look at the economy and their prospects and make a judgement based on the reality of the situation - not hope.

 

[AY1975]

I didn't suggest they were. I was simply suggesting to one of our correspondents who had suggested that he had "..never spoken to a Brexitist who isn't a moron or, at the very least, stratospherically ill-informed." that he might widen his circle of acquaintances. He suggested that "Brexitists are predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick." That suggests that most of 17.4m people fall into that category. I find that insulting and would do so even if I were not among their number myself.

To be fair, there are some very intelligent Leavers who genuinely believe that they have very sound and well thought-out reasons for wanting Brexit.

 

[AY1975]

I'm not "coming together". I will continue to fight to restore the best of what we once had. Over time, the older Brexiteers will die, the younger pro-Europeans will become the majority and we can start the slow process of re-building all the bridges that we've burned.

Agreed, and besides the most ardent Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 referendum result: they carried on moaning and crying out for us to leave the EEC/EU until they finally got their way 45 years later. Politics isn't about giving up the fight when you lose an election or a referendum: it's about carrying on fighting and arguing for what you believe in.

 

[TrafficEng]

Remainers didn't predict WWIII. Boris Johnson claimed Cameron had said it. But it was another of Johnson's lies.

Whether or not he said the actual words "WWIII", the fact remains he was widely reported as saying that war was a possible consequence of the UK leaving the EU.

Here's what a well-known Boris-loving Brexit-loving tabloid had to say -

'Brexit' could trigger World War Three, warns David Cameron

....he [Cameron] said: "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
<Snip>
He referred to Britain’s role in “pivotal moments in European history: Blenheim, Trafalgar, Waterloo, our country’s heroism in the Great War and, most of all, our lone stand in 1940”.

He added: "What happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain. That was true in 1914, 1940, 1989.... and it is true in 2016."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607

Invoking 1914, 1940 and 1989 (after Trafalgar and Waterloo) was as good as saying he anticipated a large-scale European war that the UK would be involved in.

And your experience may be different, but over the last three years I've heard many young people express concerns that leaving the EU is going to cause a war. They must have got that impression from somewhere.

 

[TrafficEng]

I'll be here to remind them what we did have. They can take a look at the economy and their prospects and make a judgement based on the reality of the situation - not hope.

I agree 100%.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, there are some very intelligent Leavers who genuinely believe that they have very sound and well thought-out reasons for wanting Brexit.

And to suggest there are no arguments for it at all is to suggest that the EU is perfect, which it patently isn't.

I voted Remain as a pragmatic vote (as my life is reasonably OK with it there and the whole 4 years of Governmental paralysis and economic damage could have been avoided) but I did consider voting Leave as an option, and if I could have ensured that we would join the EEA or EFTA I would likely have voted Leave. I definitely think the EU has faults, and in principle I believe in thin Government i.e. as few layers as possible[1] (also a big fan of unitary authorities at a local level), so it existing as a Governmental layer is counter to that. I would have strongly supported it remaining as something like the EEC or ASEAN - a trading bloc, not a level of Government.

[1] That's not quite the same thing as libertarian - I do believe in personal freedoms and personal responsibility, but I also believe in a welfare state, the NHS etc. A slightly unusual mix that is largely unrepresented in the British political sphere - but the Tory-Lib Dem coalition was not actually very far off.

 

[SteveP29]

He qualified as a barrister and has built a very successful business

Wetherspoons floated on the Stock Exchange in 1992, when they had just under 50 pubs, the growth in the business since then can't all be attributed to him.

To be fair, there are some very intelligent Leavers who genuinely believe that they have very sound and well thought-out reasons for wanting Brexit.

I wish you'd point them in my direction, as I still haven't heard any actual hard evidence of the benefits, I still only ever hear soundbites, hopes and that if I believe hard enough, everything will be fine.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

I wish you'd point them in my direction, as I still haven't heard any actual hard evidence of the benefits, I still only ever hear soundbites, hopes and that if I believe hard enough, everything will be fine.

A belief in the benefits of Brexit would appear to be similar to the blind faith of many religious people. Despite all the scientific evidence agaist the existence of God, people cling to 'their faith'. Similarly, not all believers can be written off as fools. God does move in mysterious ways.

 

[krus_aragon]

God does move in mysterious ways.

Including by train?

 

[Esker-pades]

A belief in the benefits of Brexit would appear to be similar to the blind faith of many religious people. Despite all the scientific evidence agaist the existence of God, people cling to 'their faith'. Similarly, not all believers can be written off as fools. God does move in mysterious ways.

Is there scientific evidence against the existence of God? There's a lot of scientific evidence that explains why everything that happens can be attributed to 'naturally occuring phenomena', but that is not the same as being against the existence of God.

 

[jellybaby]

Wetherspoons floated on the Stock Exchange in 1992, when they had just under 50 pubs, the growth in the business since then can't all be attributed to him.

Heresy! If the folk at the top aren't crucial they wouldn't be worth 300x the average worker!

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Is there scientific evidence against the existence of God? There's a lot of scientific evidence that explains why everything that happens can be attributed to 'naturally occuring phenomena', but that is not the same as being against the existence of God.

I'm being very selective here, but taking Creationists as the extreme example, science can disprove everything they believe in. thus providing very strong scientific evidence that the God they believe in does not exist.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm being very selective here, but taking Creationists as the extreme example, science can disprove everything they believe in. thus providing very strong scientific evidence that the God they believe in does not exist.

It's not accurate to use 'creationism' as a proxy for 'God'.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm being very selective here, but taking Creationists as the extreme example, science can disprove everything they believe in. thus providing very strong scientific evidence that the God they believe in does not exist.

Which cannot be used as an analogy for Brexit. Until we are out and settled into our new role in the world, everything is just prediction.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Which cannot be used as an analogy for Brexit. Until we are out and settled into our new role in the world, everything is just prediction.

Apologies to the OP for wandering off topic !

 

[Pyreneenguy]

It's not accurate to use 'creationism' as a proxy for 'God'.

God comes in more varieties than the proverbial Heinz 57 !

 

[nidave]

So much for a seamless border.... I feel sorry for those companies in N. Ireland who are going to suffer due to these new rules

The “straightforward” document that Northern Irish businesses will need to complete to send goods to Great Britain after Brexit is a complex form that includes 31 data elements, it can be revealed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...post-brexit-checks-for-northern-irish-traders

 

[Enthusiast]

Wetherspoons floated on the Stock Exchange in 1992, when they had just under 50 pubs,

So he built it from 0 to 50 pubs then. Hardly the achievements of somebody who may be "really rather thick" - especially considering that many people have difficulty making just one pub run successfully.

Until we are out and settled into our new role in the world, everything is just prediction.

As, of course, is remaining in. Staying in the EU is no more likely to result in the status quo being maintained over the long term than leaving is. The EU does not do the status quo, as is evident from its evolution over the last 40 years.

 

[furnessvale]

As, of course, is remaining in. Staying in the EU is no more likely to result in the status quo being maintained over the long term than leaving is. The EU does not do the status quo, as is evident from its evolution over the last 40 years.

Fully agree. When challenged on the "Status Quo" all that remainers have been able to say is that the status quo IS membership of the EU, which is constantly evolving!

 

[SteveP29]

So he built it from 0 to 50 pubs then. Hardly the achievements of somebody who may be "really rather thick" - especially considering that many people have difficulty making just one pub run successfully.

I never said he was thick, but the Wetherspoons brand started out by buying up pubs that were already established, especially after the Monopolies and Mergers act that was passed at about that time (I don't remember the exact names etc, my parents were in the trade at the time, which is why I know of it), that restricted breweries to 1000 pubs. Subsequently, several nationwide breweries had to offload a number of their pubs to comply with legislation.
That gave Martin opportunity to buy those pubs, and yes, the breweries were more prepared to lose their loss making and barely profit making pubs, but that's still a hell of start for him, it's not as if he had massive startup costs like building the pubs, brewery/ supplier deals, recruitment etc, for the most part, the majority of it was already in situ.

And err, Martin never ran a pub himself, he employed managers to do that, if they don't achieve results, he moves them on and gets another, so it hardly qualifies him to take credit for whether a pub is successful or not.

 

[furnessvale]

And err, Martin never ran a pub himself, he employed managers to do that, if they don't achieve results, he moves them on and gets another, so it hardly qualifies him to take credit for whether a pub is successful or not.

I doubt Ian Mcgregor actually dug any coal, or poured any liquid steel himself either.

And I would put money on Dr Beeching never having done a weekend shift on the perway!

 

[AM9]

Which cannot be used as an analogy for Brexit. Until we are out and settled into our new role in the world, everything is just prediction.

So for how many years will discussion about the success or otherwise of leaving the EU be considered by leavers to be premature?

 

[furnessvale]

So for how many years will discussion about the success or otherwise of leaving the EU be considered by leavers to be premature?

Doesn't really matter, but certainly more than one.

Had we remained, how many further acts of EU unification would have had to occur before remainers accepted the EU was actually changing?

 

[Esker-pades]

Doesn't really matter, but certainly more than one.

Had we remained, how many further acts of EU unification would have had to occur before remainers accepted the EU was actually changing?

As a member state, we could always block integration attempts that we didn't like.

 

[furnessvale]

As a member state, we could always block integration attempts that we didn't like.

Only in certain areas and there is a big push to remove more vetoes. Yes we could have opt outs but how long before the two speed is so far apart we may as well have left in the first place.

We are leaving. Let's concentrate on a professional working relationship with the EU as an independent country just like all the other countries in the world do.

 

[Esker-pades]

Only in certain areas and there is a big push to remove more vetoes. Yes we could have opt outs but how long before the two speed is so far apart we may as well have left in the first place.

That's pretty much why our deal was so good. We weren't in the Eurozone, or Schengen, and had loads of other opt outs, but we got the benefits of being in the single market.

We are leaving. Let's concentrate on a professional working relationship with the EU as an independent country just like all the other countries in the world do.

You asked the question.....

 

[ainsworth74]

We all seem to be getting along again oat the moment but it got somewhat heated earlier on this thread. Please ensure that your contributions comply with the Forum Rules around treating each other with respect. You're welcome to disagree (vigorously!) but you must not go after each other personally.

(Also the God discussion was definitely going off-topic please leave it there!)

Thanks,
ainsworth74