EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Enthusiast]

As a member state, we could always block integration attempts that we didn't like.

Could we?

As I mentioned earlier, the Lisbon Treaty removed the requirement for unanimity from around 45 areas of policy. In fact there are now only five main policy areas not subject to Qualified Majority Voting (for the moment):

Taxation, social security or social protection, the accession of new countries to the EU, foreign and common defence policy and operational police cooperation between EU countries.

Among the areas where which moved to QMV following Lisbon are border checks, asylum, immigration, the ECJ, transport, freedom of movement for workers, energy, tourism and the EU budget. There's an awful lot of "integration" that can take place in those areas (and the only thirty-odd I haven't mentioned) without the UK's consent. Once again, the EU doesn't do the status quo.

 

[Esker-pades]

Could we?

As I mentioned earlier, the Lisbon Treaty removed the requirement for unanimity from around 45 areas of policy. In fact there are now only five main policy areas not subject to Qualified Majority Voting (for the moment):

Taxation, social security or social protection, the accession of new countries to the EU, foreign and common defence policy and operational police cooperation between EU countries.

Among the areas where which moved to QMV following Lisbon are border checks, asylum, immigration, the ECJ, transport, freedom of movement for workers, energy, tourism and the EU budget. There's an awful lot of "integration" that can take place in those areas (and the only thirty-odd I haven't mentioned) without the UK's consent. Once again, the EU doesn't do the status quo.

According to a Mr. Jacob Rees-Mogg, yes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/111408626402472755

If a long extension leaves us stuck in the EU we should be as difficult as possible. We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes.

But, the European Parliament gained additional power, and the UK has increase voting weight on the Council.

We have an opt out from parts of the Lisbon Treaty (Charter of Fundamental Rights, areas of freedom, security and justice). Our previous opt-outs also mean that some of the "integration" that may happen won't apply to us.

 

[AY1975]

Meanwhile a new cohort of young people will emerge who have never experienced life under EU membership and will grow up wondering what all the fuss was about.

Maybe, but their parents will be able to remember life under the EU.

If you grew up in the former East Germany in the communist era (i.e. before the Berlin Wall came down in 1989) you would never have known anything other than the communist regime and restrictions on travel until the Wall came down, but the chances are that you would have parents or grandparents who could remember the days before World War II and the post-war division of Germany. You might then have asked them why you weren't allowed to travel to anywhere in the West, and they'd have explained to you that that was because of history.

Likewise, future generations who grow up in the post-Brexit UK will come to realise that they are being denied the opportunity to travel, study, work and live anywhere else in Europe that their parents' generation took for granted, and their parents will only be able to commiserate with them that that's because of history and because of the political situation.

 

[burneside]

Maybe, but their parents will be able to remember life under the EU.

If you grew up in the former East Germany in the communist era (i.e. before the Berlin Wall came down in 1989) you would never have known anything other than the communist regime and restrictions on travel until the Wall came down, but the chances are that you would have parents or grandparents who could remember the days before World War II and the post-war division of Germany. You might then have asked them why you weren't allowed to travel to anywhere in the West, and they'd have explained to you that that was because of history.

Likewise, future generations who grow up in the post-Brexit UK will come to realise that they are being denied the opportunity to travel, study, work and live anywhere else in Europe that their parents' generation took for granted, and their parents will only be able to commiserate with them that that's because of history and because of the political situation.

People travelled, studied, worked and lived in Europe before the EU. Maybe you are too young to remember that?

 

[AM9]

Doesn't really matter, but certainly more than one.

It does really matter. If the country descends to a level of economic activity that is significantly worse than the leavers have been promising for three years, after the end of this year as we are being told will enable enough progress on trade deals, leaving the EU surely cannot be regarded as a 'success' in anybody's opinion. I can appreciate that those who have pushed for abandoning all of our current free trade deals would like to avoid any criticism of their persuading the electorate that it was a good idea, so maybe that is your position.

Had we remained, how many further acts of EU unification would have had to occur before remainers accepted the EU was actually changing?

I have always been aware of the actual changes, (rather than the falsehoods claimed by the leave campaigners), and I am quite comfortable with them. As we shall discover soon, the UK outside the EU will be totally different to what it was when we joined (the EEC) in 1973, and with the new world of supra-national economic powers, whatever power in the world that some think we had, will be a distant memory.

 

[TrafficEng]

If you grew up in the former East Germany in the communist era (i.e. before the Berlin Wall came down in 1989) you would never have known anything other than the communist regime and restrictions on travel until the Wall came down, but the chances are that you would have parents or grandparents who could remember the days before World War II and the post-war division of Germany. You might then have asked them why you weren't allowed to travel to anywhere in the West, and they'd have explained to you that that was because of history.

I hope that Brexit Britain is going to be appreciably different to East Germany. For a start even if the EU27 were to decide to bar entry to all UK citizens we'd still have the rest of the world to explore. East Germans had considerably fewer travel options, and economic conditions wouldn't have allowed many to travel to the more exotic parts of the communist empire.

I'm also reasonably sure there would be some East German parents and grandparents who felt life in communist times was a lot happier than what they've faced since.

Likewise, future generations who grow up in the post-Brexit UK will come to realise that they are being denied the opportunity to travel, study, work and live anywhere else in Europe that their parents' generation took for granted, and their parents will only be able to commiserate with them that that's because of history and because of the political situation.

Have any of the EU27 really said they are going to deny UK citizens the opportunity to travel to their country? That would be sad.

The opportunity to study, work and live anywhere else in the EU has always been conditional and not absolute. It would be unfortunate if parents limited themselves to commiseration rather than helping their children explore the opportunities that will still exist to study, work and live in the EU27.

I doubt the UK parents who actually took up the opportunity to study, work and live in the EU27 1992-2020 will have a significant impact in percentage terms. In 2015 the UN believed there were about 1.2 million people born in the UK living elsewhere in the EU. Not all of them will be UK citizens of course. Approx 300,000 of those were living in Spain. I don't think I'd be far out in suggesting a fair number of those are grandparents already. Another 254,000 were living in Ireland, a situation far more complex than just UK citizens making the most of the opportunities the EU enabled.

Anyway, as yet I've not seen pictures of the French, Belgian, Dutch or UK governments uncoiling barbed wire and setting up SM-70's along our facing coasts. My guess is they won't be.

 

[nidave]

Doesn't really matter, but certainly more than one

Of course it does. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless. If we never get back to the point we were when we left then it's a failure. The county is worse off and won't ever recover.

BTW JRM said it would take approx 50 years to get back to where we vwere while an EU member. So not in my lifetime.

 

[furnessvale]

I have always been aware of the actual changes, (rather than the falsehoods claimed by the leave campaigners), and I am quite comfortable with them. As we shall discover soon, the UK outside the EU will be totally different to what it was when we joined (the EEC) in 1973, and with the new world of supra-national economic powers, whatever power in the world that some think we had, will be a distant memory.

I would expect nothing less from a remainer. As a brexiter I felt differently.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I hope that Brexit Britain is going to be appreciably different to East Germany. For a start even if the EU27 were to decide to bar entry to all UK citizens we'd still have the rest of the world to explore. East Germans had considerably fewer travel options, and economic conditions wouldn't have allowed many to travel to the more exotic parts of the communist empire.

I'm also reasonably sure there would be some East German parents and grandparents who felt life in communist times was a lot happier than what they've faced since.

Have any of the EU27 really said they are going to deny UK citizens the opportunity to travel to their country? That would be sad.

The opportunity to study, work and live anywhere else in the EU has always been conditional and not absolute. It would be unfortunate if parents limited themselves to commiseration rather than helping their children explore the opportunities that will still exist to study, work and live in the EU27.

I doubt the UK parents who actually took up the opportunity to study, work and live in the EU27 1992-2020 will have a significant impact in percentage terms. In 2015 the UN believed there were about 1.2 million people born in the UK living elsewhere in the EU. Not all of them will be UK citizens of course. Approx 300,000 of those were living in Spain. I don't think I'd be far out in suggesting a fair number of those are grandparents already. Another 254,000 were living in Ireland, a situation far more complex than just UK citizens making the most of the opportunities the EU enabled.

Anyway, as yet I've not seen pictures of the French, Belgian, Dutch or UK governments uncoiling barbed wire and setting up SM-70's along our facing coasts. My guess is they won't be.

This post sums up the whole thought behind Brexit:

• Hope
• Guess
• Doubt
• Think

Not a shred of evidence, fact or reason.

My children have been robbed of the right to travel, work and study freely in the 27 countries closest to them. Fact.
They may well be able to travel, work and study in the 27 countries closest to them in the future, it will not be as easy for them in the future. Fact.

Why should I have to help my children explore additional and more complicated options that were completely unnecessary a year ago, when I still have to see any tangible benefit associated with this loss of freedom?

 

[najaB]

The EU does not do the status quo, as is evident from its evolution over the last 40 years.

Do you know what else has changed over the last 40 years? Everything. Of course the EU isn't the Coal and Steel Union of 1952 - last time I checked the current year is 2020!

It's the basic problem with being pro-Brexit (and conservatism generally) - as King Canute pointed out over a thousand years ago, you can't hold back change.

 

[AM9]

I would expect nothing less from a remainer. As a brexiter I felt differently.

I think that we could all guess that. As you know, my comment was in response to your words:
"Had we remained, how many further acts of EU unification would have had to occur before remainers accepted the EU was actually changing?"
Which implies to me that remain voters hadn't noticed (unlike your good self) that the EU was no longer a basic 'common market' as it was in the '70s. It has grown into the largest free market in the world, and it is now beyond bullying by the likes of Trump. Of course little UK will get such preferential terms from our special relationship with the US, - those who still think leaving that free market was the best thing ever done will by 2025 be boasting about how good life is on these terms.

 

[TrafficEng]

This post sums up the whole thought behind Brexit:

• Hope
• Guess
• Doubt
• Think

Not a shred of evidence, fact or reason.

I wouldn't normally quote my own posts, but....

..In 2015 the UN believed there were about 1.2 million people born in the UK living elsewhere in the EU. Not all of them will be UK citizens of course. Approx 300,000 of those were living in Spain. I don't think I'd be far out in suggesting a fair number of those are grandparents already. Another 254,000 were living in Ireland, a situation far more complex than just UK citizens making the most of the opportunities the EU enabled...

I'd have been happy to try and find more detailed statistics and quote them as evidence if anybody had asked.

 

[TrafficEng]

BTW JRM said it would take approx 50 years to get back to where we vwere while an EU member. So not in my lifetime.

If you are referring to the interview on Channel 4 News then no, he didn't say that.

(Context: He was being pushed to answer whether he would resign (from what?) if the economy 'took a hit' in year 1)

 

[HSTEd]

My children have been robbed of the right to travel, work and study freely in the 27 countries closest to them. Fact.
They may well be able to travel, work and study in the 27 countries closest to them in the future, it will not be as easy for them in the future. Fact.

Why should I have to help my children explore additional and more complicated options that were completely unnecessary a year ago, when I still have to see any tangible benefit associated with this loss of freedom?

Because the people decided that those rights were worth less to them than what they gain through Brexit?

Virtually every political decision ever made involves removing rights from one group or another.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Because the people decided that those rights were worth less to them than what they gain through Brexit?

Virtually every political decision ever made involves removing rights from one group or another.

What's the gain?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I wouldn't normally quote my own posts, but....
I'd have been happy to try and find more detailed statistics and quote them as evidence if anybody had asked.

You started your list of stats with "I doubt", rambled about various people living in different countries. There was no point or conclusion.

Perhaps you can answer my question: What's the tangible benefit of Brexit that's worth stealing my children's right to live and work in the EU?

 

[Enthusiast]

Why should I have to help my children explore additional and more complicated options that were completely unnecessary a year ago, when I still have to see any tangible benefit associated with this loss of freedom?

The simple answer is you will have to do so because the UK is leaving the EU next week. To expand a little, it is doing so because the government asked the electorate what they wanted to do, they voted to leave and Parliament agreed to it. This was after a struggle, even though Parliament agreed to hold a referendum (5:1), agreed to trigger A50 (5:1), and stood at a General Election where 80% of those elected did so on a manifesto to ensure the result of the referendum was implemented.

Are you suggesting that all that should somehow be binned just so that your children don't have to fill in a form or two to do what they want? Whether or not you have been shown any tangible benefits and even if you'd accept them if you had is, alas, largely immaterial. You suggest you are about to lose some "freedoms". I understand that. Perhaps you might understand that Leavers accept the loss of those freedoms and believe they will be more than offset by restoring the freedom of their elected government to take actions on their behalf without seeking the permission of foreign civil servants. As much as you'd like to simplify it as such, Brexit is not solely about the identification of immediate tangible benefits. But the bottom line that began all this is that 1.2m more people voted to leave than voted to remain. One group or the other was sure to be disappointed. Of course you could (and probably would) argue that the referendum should never have been held. That would be sound if it was apparent that the majority of the electorate was perfectly happy with our continued membership. But it clearly wasn't (as evidenced by the referendum result) and the question needed to be asked.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The simple answer is you will have to do so because the UK is leaving the EU next week. To expand a little, it is doing so because the government asked the electorate what they wanted to do, they voted to leave and Parliament agreed to it. This was after a struggle, even though Parliament agreed to hold a referendum (5:1), agreed to trigger A50 (5:1), and stood at a General Election where 80% of those elected did so on a manifesto to ensure the result of the referendum was implemented.

Are you suggesting that all that should somehow be binned just so that your children don't have to fill in a form or two to do what they want? Whether or not you have been shown any tangible benefits and even if you'd accept them if you had is, alas, largely immaterial. You suggest you are about to lose some "freedoms". I understand that. Perhaps you might understand that Leavers accept the loss of those freedoms and believe they will be more than offset by restoring the freedom of their elected government to take actions on their behalf without seeking the permission of foreign civil servants. As much as you'd like to simplify it as such, Brexit is not solely about the identification of immediate tangible benefits. But the bottom line that began all this is that 1.2m more people voted to leave than voted to remain. One group or the other was sure to be disappointed. Of course you could (and probably would) argue that the referendum should never have been held. That would be sound if it was apparent that the majority of the electorate was perfectly happy with our continued membership. But it clearly wasn't (as evidenced by the referendum result) and the question needed to be asked.

Still no concrete benefit, then?

 

[Doppelganger]

What's the gain?

I agree, there are no gains.

If anything, the Brexiters have been consistent by continuingly failing to give a reasoned argument why the process is worth it.

I am very much a Marxist in that regard, in that I deal with material reality, as such I am not interested in wishy washy feelings as that just points towards Identity politics, which Brexit is very much an extension of.

If more people actually looked around and judged the real world around them, then we could have a far more constructive conversation, however as soon as feelings and emotions are introduced then all reason seems to fall at the wayside.

And then we find ourselves where we are.

 

[TrafficEng]

You started your list of stats with "I doubt", rambled about various people living in different countries. There was no point or conclusion.

Again -

I doubt the UK parents who actually took up the opportunity to study, work and live in the EU27 1992-2020 will have a significant impact in percentage terms. [Followed by stats/evidence to support the assertion]

If the point is still not clear, approximately 1 in 60 parents might say to their children "I used my right to go and live/work in the EU27 and am angry/sad/bitter that you can't do it as easily as I did". Approximately 59 out of 60 parents might say to their children "We had the right to go and live/work in the EU27 but I never bothered/didn't see the point/couldn't afford to/etc.."

Or to put it another way -
"Meanwhile a new cohort of young people will emerge who have never experienced life under EU membership and will grow up wondering what all the fuss was about."

Perhaps you can answer my question: What's the tangible benefit of Brexit that's worth stealing my children's right to live and work in the EU?

No. I have no obligation to answer your questions, especially those framed in a pejorative way. It would be appreciated if you don't ask again. Thanks.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No. I have no obligation to answer your questions, especially those framed in a pejorative way. It would be appreciated if you don't ask again. Thanks.

No need - I have all I need from you.

 

[najaB]

No. I have no obligation to answer your questions...

Agreed. However in my experience, people who refuse to answer a question usually do so because they have no answer.

 

[TrafficEng]

Agreed. However in my experience, people who refuse to answer a question usually do so because they have no answer.

You've not regularly experienced people refusing to answer a question -
Because it was personal?
Because it was asked rudely?
Because the questioner wanted to start a fight?
Because the question was designed to entrap?
Because the question didn't make sense?
Because the person had better things to do with their time?
Because the person is bored with being asked the same question?
Because the person doesn't think the questioner will understand the answer?
Because sometimes it is polite not to give the preferred answer?
Because the questioner is refusing to pay for the information?

There's lots of different reasons for someone who has an answer to refuse to give it. I'm amazed your experience doesn't cover a much wider range.

 

[Peter Kelford]

You've not regularly experienced people refusing to answer a question -
Because it was personal?
Because it was asked rudely?
Because the questioner wanted to start a fight?
Because the question was designed to entrap?
Because the question didn't make sense?
Because the person had better things to do with their time?
Because the person is bored with being asked the same question?
Because the person doesn't think the questioner will understand the answer?
Because sometimes it is polite not to give the preferred answer?
Because the questioner is refusing to pay for the information?

I'm not going to answer your question due to the highlighted reasons.

 

[433N]

Celebratory 50p Brexit coin ?

'sake.

Don't it make yer proud to be British, guvnor ?

 

[433N]

You've not regularly experienced people refusing to answer a question -
Because it was personal?
Because it was asked rudely?
Because the questioner wanted to start a fight?
Because the question was designed to entrap?
Because the question didn't make sense?
Because the person had better things to do with their time?
Because the person is bored with being asked the same question?
Because the person doesn't think the questioner will understand the answer?
Because sometimes it is polite not to give the preferred answer?
Because the questioner is refusing to pay for the information?

There's lots of different reasons for someone who has an answer to refuse to give it. I'm amazed your experience doesn't cover a much wider range.

Dear, oh dear, oh dear. That is really poor.

[ON EDIT]
... and yet whilst the question remains unanswered, my default is to turn to Occam's razor and conclude that the real reason for people voting Brexit is xenophobia (and cause those voters to suffer an attack of the vapours and ruffle their petticoats in indignation at the suggestion).

 

[najaB]

You've not regularly experienced people refusing to answer a question -
Because it was personal?
Because it was asked rudely?
Because the questioner wanted to start a fight?
Because the question was designed to entrap?
Because the question didn't make sense?
Because the person had better things to do with their time?
Because the person is bored with being asked the same question?
Because the person doesn't think the questioner will understand the answer?
Because sometimes it is polite not to give the preferred answer?
Because the questioner is refusing to pay for the information?

There's lots of different reasons for someone who has an answer to refuse to give it. I'm amazed your experience doesn't cover a much wider range.

In most of those cases they'll normally decline to answer rather than refuse to answer. Slight difference.

E.g. "Sorry, but that's personal."

 

[Peter Kelford]

In most of those cases they'll normally decline to answer rather than refuse to answer. Slight difference.

E.g. "Sorry, but that's personal."

Some answers:

That's personal.
Calm down, and we'll talk
I don't get where your question is going
I don't get the question.
I don't have the time.
I answered it already, I don't want to repeat the question
I don't know if you'd get it.
Erm...I don't think my answer would be particularly constructive
I can't tell you that
I don't know the answer to that
You've caught me out on that one
The data costs £x.

 

[Gooner18]

Wow , this thread is boring now.
Whether you voted leave or remain we are leaving , time to get on with things.
However I have always thought , instead of blaming people who voted leave and calling them racist, thick , stuck in the past and much , much more! Why not look and blame at how weak the remain campaign was, how weak labour and Corbyn were during the referendum to convince those who voted for leave to vote to stay.
How bad and weak all the remain MP’s and parties have been since the referendum, instead of being positive and trying to convince people that leave is not a good idea and this is why we should stay they went down the route of “ telling “ leavers they are thick , racist , stuck in the glory days and even worse threatening just to outright over turn their say by reversing the result.
On top of that you have an unelectable labour leader and indeed an unelectable Labour Party what else did you expect to happen , apart from voters getting the royal hump and vote / protest vote for Boris in the last election

 

[najaB]

Why not look and blame at how weak the remain campaign was, how weak labour and Corbyn were during the referendum to convince those who voted the leave to vote to stay.

I think it is obvious to everyone how poorly organised the remain campaign was. As I noted in the Scottish Independence thread it's one of the reasons that people with whom I have spoken who voted "No" in 2014 are considering voting "Yes" if there's another referendum.

We don't feel that the English parties did enough in 2016 to protect the EU membership and resulting rights that we were told had been secured for a generation.