EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[TheKnightWho]

I know it's impossible for such a thing to ever happen in the "real" world in which you live, but...

What would happen in a crazy hypothetical world where we elect representatives who have promised to put power directly in the hands of the people? Say for example on planet Bizzarro a political party made a pre-election pledge to give the people a referendum on a certain matter? Would that be democratic or not?

Again, I know it's all fantasy. Nothing like that could ever happen in the real world. But it's an interesting thought experiment.

Do you know how long it takes for things to get done in Switzerland? They didn't get full suffrage until 1990. Why? Because they hold referendums on everything.

 

[Gutfright]

Do you know how long it takes for things to get done in Switzerland? They didn't get full suffrage until 1990. Why? Because they hold referendums on everything.

Referendums should be used sparingly (*cough* Nicola). But when they are used, it would be undemocratic to ignore the voice of the people.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Referendums should be used sparingly (*cough* Nicola). But when they are used, it would be undemocratic to ignore the voice of the people.

And if the people have been misled?

 

[Harbornite]

And if the people have been misled?

They still had the chance to do their own research. Some people are too unintelligent for this.

 

[Geezertronic]

And if the people have been misled?

Makes it no different to any of the General Election pledges that have been promised and subsequently forgotten about after the event

 

[Gutfright]

And if the people have been misled?

As long as people have been given access to both sides of the argument, then we should let the people of Britain make their own minds up.

 

[TheKnightWho]

As long as people have been given access to both sides of the argument, then we should let the people of Britain make their own minds up.

People are not perfectly rational. They can still be misled by dishonest and misleading campaign material. Is that acceptable?

 

[Geezertronic]

People are not perfectly rational. They can still be misled by dishonest and misleading campaign material. Is that acceptable?

It seems to have worked for politicians during General Elections, probably since the dawn of time

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you know how long it takes for things to get done in Switzerland? They didn't get full suffrage until 1990. Why? Because they hold referendums on everything.

Switzerland is somewhat unique, having historical use of its cantons as mini-states. It was not until 1848 that Switzerland became a federal state, adopting its own federal constitution.

You need to fully read into the past history of that nation to understand this reference to past historical matters and how matters are viewed in that country. It most certainly is something more than the simplistic use of referendums.

 

[Gutfright]

People are not perfectly rational. They can still be misled by dishonest and misleading campaign material. Is that acceptable?

It's approximately one million times more acceptable than being told that the people of Britain are basically children and we should just be ignored.

As someone else pointed out, political parties use dishonest and misleading campaign material. Should we abolish voting in general elections too?

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's approximately one million times more acceptable than being told that the people of Britain are basically children and we should just be ignored.

As someone else pointed out, political parties use dishonest and misleading campaign material. Should we abolish voting in general elections too?

Instead of "Project Fear", the new catch-all is "patronising." When your arguments are inherently impossible to logically disprove, they are meaningless arguments: this applies to 'patronising' as much as it did to 'Project Fear'.

The people of Britain have been lied to and misled. This does not make them stupid; it does not make them children; it does not make them idiots; and even if any of these things were the case it would not make it untrue. People are human, and we tend to believe what we want to believe and, particularly, what we have been primed to believe by what we are reading. Everyone is susceptible to it, but that does not make it justified and it does not make it impossible to look at the claims from a more objective point of view.

What you are attempting to do is justify a campaign of dishonesty, deceit and dog-whistle politics on the questionable premise that questioning that campaign is insulting to the British people. Such arguments are an insult to our liberal democracy, which is built on honest politics conducted in good faith. The Vote Leave campaign engaged in neither, and simply played on people's fears.

I understand that you got what you wanted and you want to keep it that way, but that does not change the truth of any of what I am saying.

 

[Harbornite]

People who didn't research the EU before voting are stupid.

 

[Geezertronic]

But it doesn't make it more or less relevant to a General Election where local and national promises are made and subsequently broken

 

[TheKnightWho]

But it doesn't make it more or less relevant to a General Election where local and national promises are made and subsequently broken

The difference between a general election and a referendum is that one is more permanent than the other. I believe that political parties should be held to account over campaign pledges, however.

 

[Gutfright]

Instead of "Project Fear", the new catch-all is "patronising."

If the cap fits, wear it.

Yes, political campaigns often use fearmongering tactics (if you haven't yet seen Adam Curtis' documentary The Power of Nightmares, I recommend you watch it). But this is not a good enough reason to abolish democracy itself.

 

[miami]

People who didn't research the EU before voting are stupid.

Are they? Or are they simply apathetic?

It's entirely possible to research the EU and come out with a decision that leaving would be best for you as a given individual. The number that applies to would be very small though.

However as we all know, a large number of people did not do any research, so instead listened to a media who by and large told them to vote leave because of scary immigrants. And that's sad.

It doesn't mean that we should ignore their voice though. We're all adults, even the people who didn't research, even the people who "voted as a protest", even the people who are regretting it now, and we have to live with bad choices that we make.

The best we can hope for is full EEA membership, hopefully without our net EU budgetary contribution increasing, hopefully without schengen and euro buy-in. Basically what we had before, but without a say.

 

[Geezertronic]

The difference between a general election and a referendum is that one is more permanent than the other. I believe that political parties should be held to account over campaign pledges, however.

Not really if the referendum result is not legally binding. Just as the Leave camp never expected to win, the Remain camp never expected to lose. Article 50 will not be activated by Theresa May, she will try and fail to get reforms

 

[TheKnightWho]

If the cap fits, wear it.

Yes, political campaigns often use fearmongering tactics (if you haven't yet seen Adam Curtis' documentary The Power of Nightmares, I recommend you watch it). But this is not a good enough reason to abolish democracy itself.

They're not fearmongering if they turn out true. The cap doesn't fit at all - you're just using unfalsifiable arguments again because you don't have anything better.

I would seriously advise giving this a read. Neither Project Fear nor your patronising claim pass this test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

And no-one is thinking of abolishing democracy. You keep trying to say that anyone who believes anything other than you do is undemocratic: I am not going to brag on this forum by laying out credentials, but suffice to say I have experience in these matters.

 

[Gutfright]

The cap doesn't fit at all - you're just using unfalsifiable arguments again because you don't have anything better.

It can be falsified. Just commission a survey which asks people "Do you feel patronised by the assertion that the people of Britain should be ignored because they're incapable of distinguishing between fact and hyperbole. If 0% of people answer "yes" then congratulations, the claim has been falsified.

Just because something has not been falsified, doesn't mean it cannot be falsified. You're an intelligent guy, you know this. Which makes your last post truly mystifying. Why post something you know is untrue?

 

[TheKnightWho]

It can be falsified. Just commission a survey which asks people "Do you feel patronised by the assertion that the people of Britain should be ignored because they're incapable of distinguishing between fact and hyperbole. If 0% of people answer "yes" then congratulations, the claim has been falsified.

Just because something has not been falsified, doesn't mean it cannot be falsified. You're an intelligent guy, you know this. Which makes your last post truly mystifying. Why post something you know is untrue?

Please don't patronise me over the nature of falsificationism. Your patronising claim cannot be falsified because it carries the premise that because it is patronising it should be ignored. Like I said above - I don't accept that it is patronising at all, but even if it were it doesn't change anything about whether the people have been misled or not.

 

[Gutfright]

You keep trying to say that anyone who believes anything other than you do is undemocratic:

I'm saying that ignoring the results of a democratic referendum because it returned results you find inconvenient is undemocratic.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm saying that ignoring the results of a democratic referendum because it returned results you find inconvenient is undemocratic.

Which, as I have said many times, ignores the fact that democracy is premised on honest and open discourse.

 

[Gutfright]

Which, as I have said many times, ignores the fact that democracy is premised on honest and open discourse.

Which leads me to ask, for the umpteenth time, should we abolish voting in general elections because political campaigns lie, mislead and scaremonger?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Which leads me to ask, for the umpteenth time, should we abolish voting in general elections because political campaigns lie, mislead and scaremonger?

Which leads me to state that direct democracy and representative democracy are not the same.

Of course we should hold general election pledges to account. It's just that we're currently able to do that by voting them out, as happened to the LibDems. What recourse do we have here?

 

[Domh245]

People who didn't research the EU before voting are stupid.

As was mentioned in the Pre-referendum thread, it is very difficult to research the EU in it's entirety. I think it was crehld who said that he has done lots of research on it and still didn't know much about it, or something to that effect. If the entirety of the UK voting population had thoroughly researched the EU before the referendum, the country would have probably ground to a halt in early may as everyone do so!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As was mentioned in the Pre-referendum thread, it is very difficult to research the EU in it's entirety. I think it was crehld who said that he has done lots of research on it and still didn't know much about it, or something to that effect. If the entirety of the UK voting population had thoroughly researched the EU before the referendum, the country would have probably ground to a halt in early may as everyone do so!

He is not the only one to have carried out a deep insight into all areas of the EU over a long period of time.

 

[Railops]

I am not going to brag on this forum by laying out credentials, but suffice to say I have experience in these matters.

No really we would all like you to brag, we really would, I can't think of anything I'd like more than for you to lay out your credentials it's something I have been meaning to ask you anyway.

When you've told us how clever and intellectual you are we'll all realise how wrong we have been about you and we will never have an opposite view ever again, promise.

Don't disappoint us as we're all eager to learn.

 

[TheKnightWho]

No really we would all like you to brag, we really would, I can't think of anything I'd like more than for you to lay out your credentials it's something I have been meaning to ask you anyway.

When you've told us how clever and intellectual you are we'll all realise how wrong we have been about you and we will never have an opposite view ever again, promise.

Don't disappoint us as we're all eager to learn.

Do you ever engage in anything other than pathetic insults? You remind me of some of my students: nothing to say, but far too many words come out.

It's very obvious that you have deep-seated insecurities about anyone disagreeing with you, and a lot of anger about it too. Most of us grow out of that by the age of 18 - evidently not all.

 

[Geezertronic]

Do you ever engage in anything other than pathetic insults? You remind me of some of my students: nothing to say, but far too many words come out.

It's very obvious that you have deep-seated insecurities about anyone disagreeing with you, and a lot of anger about it too. Most of us grow out of that by the age of 18 - evidently not all.

I am sure you would call someone out if they made the same claims. I could say that I have more experience than you without proving it. You might as well clarify why you believe you have credentials since you mentioned it

 

[TheKnightWho]

I am sure you would call someone out if they made the same claims. I could say that I have more experience than you without proving it. You might as well clarify why you believe you have credentials since you mentioned it

I haven't asked Paul to prove to me that he got his first in maths that he likes to keep going on about.

And the reason it's relevant is because there's a lot more to democracy than single votes. A lot of people dedicate their lives to studying this stuff - they don't just sit around all day twiddling their thumbs.