Europe looks ahead...

[AndrewE]

While the UK festers in the 1960's.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... w-strategy(faster-trains-and-cheaper-tickets-to-boost-european-rail-travel-in-new-strategy) says

Faster trains and cheaper tickets to boost European rail travel in new strategy: European Commission proposals aim to encourage cross-border and long-distance train journeys
Trains will run faster on key routes across Europe and ticket prices and provider costs could be slashed under a Brussels plan to boost faltering efforts to make rail Europe’s default mode of transport.

A new speed requirement to ensure trains on a core network of track are able to travel at 160 km/h or faster would be introduced by 2040, the European Commission has proposed.

Cross-border travel, including by night trains, would be encouraged by making ticketing easier and potentially through cutting the track access charges faced by rail companies.
The commission vice-president Frans Timmermans, who presented the proposals for the bloc’s 27 member states to agree, said the EU’s executive would also look at introducing a VAT exemption for rail tickets.

Timmermans, a former Dutch foreign minister, said: “We will speed up travel times and make it easier to build a competitive rail network across Europe. Next year work will start on 15 pilots to improve long-distance rail services across main train corridors – train tickets need to be easier to find, to book and buy at attractive prices. In this context we will also look at a VAT exemption for international rail tickets.”

which is all good news - as long as we can get out of the UK!
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[30907]

While the UK festers in the 1960's.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... w-strategy(faster-trains-and-cheaper-tickets-to-boost-european-rail-travel-in-new-strategy) says

which is all good news - as long as we can get out of the UK!
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Given that the EU couldn't even agree to enforce passenger rights for delayed services involving split ticketing (which is standard policy in GB), I wouldn't hold your breath.

BTW which particular aspect of your 1960s experience are you referring to?

 

[duesselmartin]

Between well intentions and actually doing it, there is a big difference.
As to the 1960s- Electrification of the WCML, developement of new rolling stock, a new Euston station.
Okay line closures, but that is not an issue now.

 

[AndrewE]

Given that the EU couldn't even agree to enforce passenger rights for delayed services involving split ticketing (which is standard policy in GB), I wouldn't hold your breath.

BTW which particular aspect of your 1960s experience are you referring to?

Beeching cuts, surviving branch lines left with token services, Road lobby in control of Ministry of Transport, Treasury restricting scope of planned rail investment...

 

[Austriantrain]

While the UK festers in the 1960's.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... w-strategy(faster-trains-and-cheaper-tickets-to-boost-european-rail-travel-in-new-strategy) says

which is all good news - as long as we can get out of the UK!
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And again: British self-flagellation. I will say it again and again: While the Uk rail system is far from perfect, it is on the par with the best in Europe and far better than many.

 

[AndrewE]

And again: British self-flagellation. I will say it again and again: While the Uk rail system is far from perfect, it is on the par with the best in Europe and far better than many.

It certainly doesn't compare with my experience or Switzerland or Germany, and I must have been imagining the threads I have been reading about "Treasury blocking electrification plans" or "Services withdrawn due to staff shortages", or "which services should be withdrawn to achieve a 10% cut in costs," and the two trains I would have taken today which were cancelled.

I am not aware that we have any kind of an (integrated) transport policy at all, or any Government awareness that public transport will have to expand to cope with the modal shift to achieve decarbonisation, or any real national investment plans or strategies to help get polluting vehicles out of town and city centres. A few piecemeal initiatives by a few Authorities, but most actions have been kicking the can down the road - with more studies funded instead of projects expedited.

 

[Austriantrain]

It certainly doesn't compare with my experience or Switzerland or Germany, and I must have been imagining the threads I have been reading about "Treasury blocking electrification plans" or "Services withdrawn due to staff shortages", or "which services should be withdrawn to achieve a 10% cut in costs," and the two trains I would have taken today which were cancelled.

I am not aware that we have any kind of an (integrated) transport policy at all, or any Government awareness that public transport will have to expand to cope with the modal shift to achieve decarbonisation, or any real national investment plans or strategies to help get polluting vehicles out of town and city centres. A few piecemeal initiatives by a few Authorities, but most actions have been kicking the can down the road - with more studies funded instead of projects expedited.

Switzerland is indeed the gold standard of rail (a country that has basically already written its 2035 timetable and is preparing the 2050 one needs to be admired), but this is an extremely wealthy country with a real love of rail, where citizens will readily agree in referendums to spend enormous sums on infrastructure improvements. The Swiss model is hardly replicable elsewhere.

Switzerland is also small, so it avoids the need for HSR with all its extra conflicts (the Swiss approach has been incremental for years with constant improvements which people could see - largely accounting for public support for rail investment; when the decision to build the long and expensive tunnels was taken, that support was already there. That is different from asking people to pay billions for a new line that they can only use 20 years later for the first time).

As to Germany, I suspect many Germans will happily complain about their rail system as much more as you do about yours.

 

[AndrewE]

But a Taktfahrplan? Coordinated buses and trains? Transport policy? integrated ticketing? (Even a return bus ticket that can be used to come back on the same route at a discount isn't available here where I live... because we have different operators at different times of day!)

Encourage people to use piublic transport? Certainly not here...

 

[AndrewE]

p.s. I see that no-one contradicts my complaints about the deficiencies of our transport policies, or tells me I am just a born whinger. Just "Self-flagellation" and "Germans complain too." They certainly would if they had to put up with what we have to use.

How are motorists going to be tempted out of their polluting and energy-wasting cars if this is all we have to offer?

 

[johncrossley]

But a Taktfahrplan? Coordinated buses and trains? Transport policy? integrated ticketing? (Even a return bus ticket that can be used to come back on the same route at a discount isn't available here where I live... because we have different operators at different times of day!)

Encourage people to use piublic transport? Certainly not here...

Local transport is definitely deficient in the UK compared to almost anywhere in Europe. The same could have been said about railways 25 years ago but now the UK is broadly on a par with much of Europe. Fares are still a significant issue though.

 

[Austriantrain]

p.s. I see that no-one contradicts my complaints about the deficiencies of our transport policies, or tells me I am just a born whinger. Just "Self-flagellation" and "Germans complain too." They certainly would if they had to put up with what we have to use.

How are motorists going to be tempted out of their polluting and energy-wasting cars if this is all we have to offer?

Germany doesn’t have a national Taktfahrplan at the moment. They have a very laudable plan to establish one, but they still need to prove they will be able to build the required infrastructure, something that they have not been very good at in the past.

As to a Takt in the UK, I have explained here

How would a national regular interval timetable be planned?

That's certainly something places with a bitty rail network such as Wales should be doing. It's inexplicable that they actively decided (it's minuted somewhere) not to build Trawscymru into this. It was suggested and scoped out in general terms as long ago as 1999 ....no action taken.

www.railforums.co.uk

why I don’t think it would work. It’s not that I think it wouldn’t be a good idea - IMHO a Takt is a good idea everywhere-, it’s just that it would require enormous investments into many major stations and station approaches all across the UK and I don’t see a willingness to invest the necessary amounts and endure the disruption until that is ready.

If, though, you need a dose of criticism from me: I agree with user johncrossley that is really local transport (outside of London) where the UK strongly lags behind almost anywhere else in Europe.

And returning to Switzerland: one should never forget that outside its mountains, Switzerland is actually a very densely populated country and thus predestined for a dense rail network. And indeed even within mountain areas, nothing better than a narrow alpine valley to have a railway, because it will reach all settlements and the competing roads will not be very fast either.

 

[johncrossley]

Lots of people in the UK don't even want integration. Just look at the Buses & Coaches section. You will see @TheGrandWazoo, @RT4038 and @carlberry show a preference for the current system. They don't even want integrated ticketing for local transport within a city, never mind between buses and trains. At best, they will say that integration is not a major priority. Only do it if it is easy.

 

[the sniper]

While the UK festers in the 1960's.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... w-strategy(faster-trains-and-cheaper-tickets-to-boost-european-rail-travel-in-new-strategy) says

which is all good news - as long as we can get out of the UK!
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The EU could do with looking to the 1960s when it comes to improving/reinstating cross border services...

 

[D6130]

The EU could do with looking to the 1960s when it comes to improving/reinstating cross border services...

I'll second that!

 

[Austriantrain]

The EU could do with looking to the 1960s when it comes to improving/reinstating cross border services...

Really? Back to the Iron Curtain? Certainly not.

And apart from the fact that where I live I now have frequent trains to Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, services to Germany, Switzerland and even Italy are very much better than in the 1960s.

So thank you but no.

 

[D6130]

And apart from the fact that where I live I now have frequent trains to Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, services to Germany, Switzerland and even Italy are very much better than in the 1960s.

So thank you but no.

Yes, cross-border services are much better in Central Europe than they are in the West....but apart from high speed services, they are pretty abysmal between Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands - especially for local passengers.

 

[the sniper]

Really? Back to the Iron Curtain? Certainly not.

And apart from the fact that where I live I now have frequent trains to Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, services to Germany, Switzerland and even Italy are very much better than in the 1960s.

So thank you but no.

Okay, the East - West frontier is the obvious exception...

 

[biko]

Yes, cross-border services are much better in Central Europe than they are in the West....but apart from high speed services, they are pretty abysmal between Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands - especially for local passengers.

I agree about Portugal, Spain and France, but not about the Netherlands. All border crossings now have an hourly local service, better than it ever used to be. A few years back, there were still some crossings with only intercity trains so no local passengers could use it, that has certainly changed.

 

[carlberry]

Lots of people in the UK don't even want integration. Just look at the Buses & Coaches section. You will see @TheGrandWazoo, @RT4038 and @carlberry show a preference for the current system. They don't even want integrated ticketing for local transport within a city, never mind between buses and trains. At best, they will say that integration is not a major priority. Only do it if it is easy.

That's a complete misrepresentation. Please find a single post where I've said that the availability of integrated ticketing isn't a good idea.
People's complaints about transport usually major on things like reliability and cost rather than integration which is usually only trotted out by local politicians so I'd go with not a major priority.

 

[johncrossley]

That's a complete misrepresentation. Please find a single post where I've said that the availability of integrated ticketing isn't a good idea.

In this context it means no single company tickets, even if multiple operator tickets exist alongside, and your views on this have been made clear.

People's complaints about transport usually major on things like reliability and cost rather than integration which is usually only trotted out by local politicians so I'd go with not a major priority.

As I said, you don't consider integration as a major priority. Which would be considered strange to most non-UK Europeans reading this.

 

[Austriantrain]

That's a complete misrepresentation. Please find a single post where I've said that the availability of integrated ticketing isn't a good idea.
People's complaints about transport usually major on things like reliability and cost rather than integration which is usually only trotted out by local politicians so I'd go with not a major priority.

That goes against all the experience in Continental Europe. Integrated ticketing is a major factor in attracting people to public transport, and so nowadays it is commonplace (we used to have this kind of debate in the 1970s and 80s - e.g. common ticketing in the Vienna region started in 1984). The thing is: integrated ticketing is one of those things that people don’t know that they want, because it’s a complicated idea and not very sexy. If it’s there, they will like it very much.

 

[carlberry]

In this context it means no single company tickets, even if multiple operator tickets exist alongside, and your views on this have been made clear.



As I said, you don't consider integration as a major priority. Which would be considered strange to most non-UK Europeans reading this.

You said 'don't even want integrated ticketing for local transport within a city, never mind between buses and trains' which isn't something I've said or believe; you're now changing this to being a argument about not allowing people a choice and I'll admit that I'm willing to allow people to chose the best options for themselves even it appears that you're not.

 

[johncrossley]

That goes against all the experience in Continental Europe. Integrated ticketing is a major factor in attracting people to public transport, and so nowadays it is commonplace (we used to have this kind of debate in the 1970s and 80s - e.g. common ticketing in the Vienna region started in 1984). The thing is: integrated ticketing is one of those things that people don’t know that they want, because it’s a complicated idea and not very sexy. If it’s there, they will like it very much.

Some British people particularly dislike coordination between bus, train and metro. Sounds crazy, but true.

 

[duesselmartin]

reliability of German trains are getting worse by the year. Not to mention that a train is punctual until the 6th minute of a delay.
As to integrated ticketing. Travelling from Cologne to Paris, Thalys is the only operator on the direct route, meaning splitting tickets between operators for connections or booking on a foreign platform. It cannot be done with DB.
The DB City Ticket allowing city bus connection is also not available on all fares.
The Netherlands with their frequency and OV-Chipcard are miles ahead of Germany.

 

[yorksrob]

On a continental scale, I've no doubt that intrgrated ticketing is indeed a key issue.

For the UK, which already has an integrated ticketing, it's more the price of the fares that is the problem. To the extent that a lot of passengers won't use the integrated ticketing as it's a rip off. I very rarely buy a ticket from Yorkshire to Kent, as an example, even though I make that journey frequently.

 

[Austriantrain]

On a continental scale, I've no doubt that intrgrated ticketing is indeed a key issue.

For the UK, which already has an integrated ticketing, it's more the price of the fares that is the problem. To the extent that a lot of passengers won't use the integrated ticketing as it's a rip off. I very rarely buy a ticket from Yorkshire to Kent, as an example, even though I make that journey frequently.

Where does the UK have integrated ticketing between trains, buses, trams etc, except in London? Because that’s the issue we are talking about.

On the continent, while it is true that cross-border ticket integration is a problem, within national countries there is a high amount of integration at least on a regional level.

 

[yorksrob]

Where does the UK have integrated ticketing between trains, buses, trams etc, except in London? Because that’s the issue we are talking about.

On the continent, while it is true that cross-border ticket integration is a problem, within national countries there is a high amount of integration at least on a regional level.

I was thinking more between train companies. Between modes it's rare (although there are some products for multiple modes).

I suppose my point is it's not much use if the train companies are going to jack up the price and force everyone onto advance purchase !

 

[Austriantrain]

I was thinking more between train companies. Between modes it's rare (although there are some products for multiple modes).

I suppose my point is it's not much use if the train companies are going to jack up the price and force everyone onto advance purchase !

I think real ticket integration needs to encompass all transport modes. It certainly what we have here in Austria and neighbouring countries, even though mostly on a regional level and not a national one.

 

[yorksrob]

I think real ticket integration needs to encompass all transport modes. It certainly what we have here in Austria and neighbouring countries, even though mostly on a regional level and not a national one.

I think that that's a reasonable aspiration, but for here I think that price is the key issue.

 

[johncrossley]

Ticketing is actually the *most* integrated part of British transport, even though it is so bad, as some integrated tickets exist, albeit usually at a premium. Not only does it cost more to change mode, it even costs more to change vehicle, even with the same bus company! (There are a few companies now offering 60 minute tickets).

But an even bigger problem is services not being coordinated. Buses often don't stop near the railway station. Where you have light rail or metro systems, buses are rarely coordinated and sometimes run in competition. In other countries, it would be normal for buses to feed into key stations with penalty free ticketing. Again, people like @TheGrandWazoo and @carlberry prefer buses to run into city centres running parallel to rail for long distances and only to serve the rail station if convenient.