European Migration Crisis - General Discussion

[duesselmartin]

Having been delayed a day going on holiday in June/July due to the Calais problems, personally I won't be booking Eurostar for leisure again until this is played out.

I There are still a lot of Germans alive with experience of being a refugee, either in 1945 when many Eastern European countries expelled their German-speaking minorities, or fleeing from East to West during the Cold War.

I remember Rostock-Lichtenhagen and Solingen in the early 1990swith horror. And there is still a lot of right-wing scum about. Germany may be making positive headlines now, but as a German I am afraid of the day when things turn violent. But this is off-topic.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suspect that the Hungarian authorities were more worried about being left holding the baby (potentially quite literally in some cases) if the Austrian and German authorities refused to accept trainloads of migrants, but this seems not to have been the case. There are still a lot of Germans alive with experience of being a refugee, either in 1945 when many Eastern European countries expelled their German-speaking minorities, or fleeing from East to West during the Cold War.

Not to mention the many Hungarians who themselves were refugees in 1956 and were resettled in the west, including the UK.
The situation in Budapest seems to have eased: http://www.mavcsoport.hu/en/node/9155

Saturday from 9 am the international trains are running again towards Western Europe from Budapest Keleti railway station. Trains from the border are running on their whole route in Hungary, transporting passengers directly until Budapest Keleti Railway Station and also turn back from the main station.
The employees of the railway company make every effort to rapidly restore the international traffic, but some minor disruptions, delays can occur today

 

[WestCoast]

I remember Rostock-Lichtenhagen and Solingen in the early 1990swith horror. And there is still a lot of right-wing scum about. Germany may be making positive headlines now, but as a German I am afraid of the day when things turn violent. But this is off-topic.

I was just thinking particularly about those who are to be housed in certain parts of the East, cozy Munich it is not.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The current issues in Denmark are caused by migrants/refugees looking to travel to Sweden, who have said they will issue citizen papers to any Syrian migrants. Apparently they are refusing to leave the trains in Denmark as they do not want to be registered there.

I do worry that disruption and issues like this might lead to bad feelings towards Sweden if their offers are causing people to push hard to reach that country even if it causes problems in others. Disruption like this will also be fuel for opposition groups wanting to limit or restrict the travel of migrants across Europe.

While the winter might slow things a little, given the massive displaced population from Syria at present and the positive reception that the migrants have received in Germany etc, 2016 will doubtless see considerably increased numbers.

 

[LesS]

The whole refugee issue has become muddled. As I understand the principle & intention of the International Convention following WW2 was that a person should seek refuge in the first available safe country. The situation of the present flood of refugees on the move seems to be such that they can afford the luxury of "country shopping" to seek the outcomes they desire.

This to a large extent moves them from being refugees and more "economic migrants". They are very happy to use every emotion to move attitudes to be more in their favour. The extent to which they will go includes not only using "people smugglers" but taking multiple air journeys and tucking banknotes into passports at immigration arrival desks; all to get closer to their country of choice.

Too often they and their supporters tacitly imply that they have greater rights than citizens of the countries they seek to enter.

 

[Groningen]

the first available safe country

I do not think that any asylum seeker wants to register or/and stay in Greece. It also appears (a different matter) that forces from Russia are helping Assad (of Syria) to stay in power.
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Wien - Budapest is now also cancelled.

 

[WestRiding]

Germany has lost the plot, and as for Eurostar, i will not take the risk of having my holiday ruined by Illegal Immigrants. Just as i was starting to enjoy using Eurostar! The EU needs to get a grip, not encourage the problem!

 

[Groningen]

Do not blame it on Europe and certainly not on Germany. What countries said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We got so Saddam and Qadhafi away; and with what did we end up. Assad is still in power and IS is taking more and more space. The problems began with one Tony Blair and someone from the USA. Do you remember Robin Cook words in parliament?

 

[Ianigsy]

Having been delayed a day going on holiday in June/July due to the Calais problems, personally I won't be booking Eurostar for leisure again until this is played out.

I suspect that the Hungarian authorities were more worried about being left holding the baby (potentially quite literally in some cases) if the Austrian and German authorities refused to accept trainloads of migrants, but this seems not to have been the case. There are still a lot of Germans alive with experience of being a refugee, either in 1945 when many Eastern European countries expelled their German-speaking minorities, or fleeing from East to West during the Cold War.

Mods' note: split from European Migration Crisis - Rail Disruption

 

[WestCoast]

Having been delayed a day going on holiday in June/July due to the Calais problems, personally I won't be booking Eurostar for leisure again until this is played out.

It does seem such issues are not going to disappear any time soon, but it could be said that the cold of Winter, at Calais but especially in Central Europe, may quieten things down a little. Or for those outside, make it considerably worse.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The whole refugee issue has become muddled. As I understand the principle & intention of the International Convention following WW2 was that a person should seek refuge in the first available safe country. The situation of the present flood of refugees on the move seems to be such that they can afford the luxury of "country shopping" to seek the outcomes they desire.

Except there is no way at all that the countries that would be the first safe country would be able to accept all of these refugees.

If Europe actually wanted to solve the problem then ages ago there would have been an agreement drawn up to fairly distribute refugees around the different countries.

Instead Europe buried its head in the sand for way too long (and in the UK's case had a tantrum) and now we are in a situation where what should happen (all refuges seek refuge in the first safe country) is simply not possible because these first safe countries would be totally and utterly swamped and not be able to actually process everyone! Whereas if we had a problem system in place this would have been avoided.

 

[bnm]

Regarding the thread title.

These people are refugees fleeing brutal civil wars. Not migrants.

And in reply to kimflop they are most certainly not 'illegal immigrants'.

I've just been off the phone to my local authority to see whether I could offer accommodation to a refugee. Not allowed, despite having space, because I'm a council tenant. I'd be subletting despite offering the accommodation gratis. :roll:

 

[Bodiddly]

Regarding the thread title.

These people are refugees fleeing brutal civil wars. Not migrants.

Yes, let us please remember that before this discussion degenerates (if it hasn't already) into a 'they are only coming to claim benefits' BS argument.
Most of us have got absolutely no idea what a refugee fleeing a warzone has to endure to save themselves and their family and because of that, we shouldn't question why they pass through safe countries to reach the country of their choice. Personally, I would do exactly the same. Why stay in a country (Greece) with absolutely no chance of getting a job and a proper start in life when you can move freely through a unified Europe to a country with better prospects. Read the Schengen agreement if you have any doubts about free movement.
I cannot imagine leaving my home with a suitcase knowing I will probably never return. To moan about Eurostar messing up your holiday plans just shows how selfish people in this country are to the awful situation some of our fellow human beings have to live with day to day.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Anyone whingeing about a delay on Eurostar is showing a stunning lack of empathy.

But I don't think it is quite as clear cut as saying they're "refugees" not "economic migrants". The truth is most of these people are both. They are refugees, but they are also attempting to choose which country they are registered in for economic reasons.

Understandably they'd rather be in Germany- even in the former east- rather than somewhere like Hungary, where the police have both made it clear the refugees/migrants are not wanted whilst also preventing them from moving somewhere else.

The little boy who drowned in Turkey is a good example. He was in a relatively safe country- Turkey has its problems, especially for people of a Kurdish background, and even more so towards the eastern borders- but he died because his parents wanted to be in Canada instead but Turkey wouldn't issue an exit visa.

The issue has worsened this summer because the UK, in a fit of electioneering pique, removed funding from the Italian frontier control and coastguard operations. All the experts warned them this would happen, the removal of much of the Italian frontier control encouraging the people traffickers to move more people, not fewer, but of course Theresa May showing she was tougher on foreign people than Nigel Farage was more important.

The problem goes far beyond Syria though. Many of the people in the Med are not from Syria, they're from failed states like Eritrea and Somalia, and it's going to take a lot of work to resolve those issues. Somalia has been like this since the early 1990s and Eritrea- which has one of the most inhumane and brutal governments in the world- since the war with Ethiopia in the late 1990s.

Getting into arguments about whether someone is a refugee or an economic migrant- and trying to argue some are "good" migrants and some "bad"- is over-simplifying the problem to the point of stupidity. Most of them are both and, regardless of what is happening, it isn't fair to expect Greece to take them all.

 

[Aictos]

Part of the fault lies not with Europe but with certain Gulf states such as Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait who have the means to support Europe with the crisis but refuse to accept any refugee/economic migrant.

Not only do they have the space in these states to house the refugee/economic migrants but they also have the means to pay for infrastructure improvements to do this bearing in mind how much the likes of how much Emirates and Qatar Airways etc are expanding.

So if any blame needs to be pointed, it's these states which by doing nothing is making the situation worse.

Not all Middle East states have refused to help as a few have offered assistance but the states above simply do not want to do anything.

Maybe it's time Europe said enough is enough and refuse to take on any more refugee/economic migrants until aforementioned states actually do more to help.

 

[DarloRich]

left wing soft headed pinko liberal bolshie commie that I am there is an important distinction to be made here? There are refugees fleeing a terrible civil war and there are economic migrants seeking a better life.

Do the two groups not merit different treatment? Many of the people at Calais do not appear, on the face of TV reports, to be from Syria.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do the two groups not merit different treatment? Many of the people at Calais do not appear, on the face of TV reports, to be from Syria.

The problem is that these people don't neatly fit into one category. Many of them are both fleeing terrible oppression and war and trying to get into a country where they will be economically successful.

Many of the people in Calais are not from Syria, they're from Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia. None of these countries can exactly be described as safe. Eritrea, for instance, has unlimited military service, decided entirely at the whim of the government, and has one of the world's worst human rights records. The less said about Somalia the better. And even though Darfur is no longer on the news, southern Sudan is still horrific.

 

[Antman]

Regarding the thread title.

These people are refugees fleeing brutal civil wars. Not migrants.

And in reply to kimflop they are most certainly not 'illegal immigrants'.

I've just been off the phone to my local authority to see whether I could offer accommodation to a refugee. Not allowed, despite having space, because I'm a council tenant. I'd be subletting despite offering the accommodation gratis. :roll:

Is there a brutal civil war in Turkey?
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Yes, let us please remember that before this discussion degenerates (if it hasn't already) into a 'they are only coming to claim benefits' BS argument.
Most of us have got absolutely no idea what a refugee fleeing a warzone has to endure to save themselves and their family and because of that, we shouldn't question why they pass through safe countries to reach the country of their choice. Personally, I would do exactly the same. Why stay in a country (Greece) with absolutely no chance of getting a job and a proper start in life when you can move freely through a unified Europe to a country with better prospects. Read the Schengen agreement if you have any doubts about free movement.
I cannot imagine leaving my home with a suitcase knowing I will probably never return. To moan about Eurostar messing up your holiday plans just shows how selfish people in this country are to the awful situation some of our fellow human beings have to live with day to day.

Oh for pitys sake, surely nobody is going to be happy about their Eurostar journey being delayed and left for hours without food and water? Selfish? Get real.

 

[deltic]

Is there a brutal civil war in Turkey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yes - if you live in the Kurdish areas

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is there a brutal civil war in Turkey?

The situation in the east of the country, in the Kurdish areas, is very bad.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh for pitys sake, surely nobody is going to be happy about their Eurostar journey being delayed?

Maybe not, but complaining about it shows as little tact and empathy as the bloke you see effing and blinding about a "person under a train" because he'll be late home...

 

[Geezertronic]

I think the distinction does need to be made between refugees and migrants more. Most of the mainstream press seem to focus on the refugees with children which is quite right but the lesser known press (and not reports like the ones from Britain First) seem to focus on the fact that the majority of these people seem to be men without women or children. Are these men refugees or migrants, and where are their families.

The fact that terrorists could use this crisis as an opportunity to sneak into European countries must also not be ignored but I am not sure what checks could be put into place to identify this potential vast minority.

People are also quite right when they say that Britain could do more to help "their own". If the UK plc can identify money to spend on refugees and overseas aid, then as a tax payer I should be able to ask the question why certain British people living in Britain are ignored - the homeless, those living in austerity, ex-service men/women, single parents living on a shoestring etc... Just because they do not make mainstream news doesn't mean they don't exist either.

The question also needs to be asked that if Britain does take in xxx amounts of refugees, how would that affect local & national services like the NHS and would any measures be put into place to improve services where the settlement of refugees is placed.

I don't think that there is an easy solution to the refugee crisis, but identifying refugees from migrants would be a good start as would identifying and helping families over individuals too.

 

[Antman]

I think the distinction does need to be made between refugees and migrants more. Most of the mainstream press seem to focus on the refugees with children which is quite right but the lesser known press (and not reports like the ones from Britain First) seem to focus on the fact that the majority of these people seem to be men without women or children. Are these men refugees or migrants, and where are their families.

The fact that terrorists could use this crisis as an opportunity to sneak into European countries must also not be ignored but I am not sure what checks could be put into place to identify this potential vast minority.

People are also quite right when they say that Britain could do more to help "their own". If the UK plc can identify money to spend on refugees and overseas aid, then as a tax payer I should be able to ask the question why certain British people living in Britain are ignored - the homeless, those living in austerity, ex-service men/women, single parents living on a shoestring etc... Just because they do not make mainstream news doesn't mean they don't exist either.

The question also needs to be asked that if Britain does take in xxx amounts of refugees, how would that affect local & national services like the NHS and would any measures be put into place to improve services where the settlement of refugees is placed.

I don't think that there is an easy solution to the refugee crisis, but identifying refugees from migrants would be a good start as would identifying and helping families over individuals too.

I couldn't have summed it up better

 

[Blamethrower]

The situation in the east of the country, in the Kurdish areas, is very bad.
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Maybe not, but complaining about it shows as little tact and empathy as the bloke you see effing and blinding about a "person under a train" because he'll be late home...

Why?

I see your supposed concern as false empathy driven by media hysteria. If you are going to complain about others reticence and you don't want to be labelled a hypocrite then I suggest you pack your bags and get your backside over to Calais to help. If you are not doing this then your opinion about others' empathy is entirely erroneous and wrong.

For me, empathy is the first step towards depression. I have empathy towards the people I work with, my family, my friends, but I will never have empathy with someone I don't know.

I will never care about Syrian refugees or drowned little boys. By the same token I did not mourn Princess Diana or give a damn about Saville's victims.

Media coordinated grieving is for the un-intelligent.

Of course the situations are all terrible, but flaming someone for showing a modicum of balance when there's nothing they can do about it is idiotic.

This entire issue is now a class-war in the media and I don't want any part of it

 

[deltic]

Why?



I will never care about Syrian refugees or drowned little boys.

t

I'm sure in your heart you dont mean that. What makes us humans as opposed to animals is that we do care for other humans that we will never meet or never know. In the UK we pay our taxes so the sick can be cared for and everyone can be educated whether we or our family are ever sick or whether we have children or not. We pay for the old to receive a pension and benefits to those who are severely disabled to have a reasonable standard of living. In a very small way we extend that helping hand to those whose situation we can barely comprehend or live in poverty that we will never hopefully experience and I for one are glad that we do. Even if you are on benefits you are still within the 10% richest people on the planet solely in most cases due to an accident of birth.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I will never care about Syrian refugees or drowned little boys.

We'd never have guessed if you hadn't told us.

 

[bnm]

This entire issue is now a class-war in the media and I don't want any part of it

Then no need to comment further.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The whole refugee issue has become muddled. As I understand the principle & intention of the International Convention following WW2 was that a person should seek refuge in the first available safe country. The situation of the present flood of refugees on the move seems to be such that they can afford the luxury of "country shopping" to seek the outcomes they desire.

This to a large extent moves them from being refugees and more "economic migrants". They are very happy to use every emotion to move attitudes to be more in their favour. The extent to which they will go includes not only using "people smugglers" but taking multiple air journeys and tucking banknotes into passports at immigration arrival desks; all to get closer to their country of choice.

Too often they and their supporters tacitly imply that they have greater rights than citizens of the countries they seek to enter.

That would be fair if every country had an equal chance of accepting migrants under that logic. However, they do not, and I think those who propose this argument know that Britain would be at the back of the queue that way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Germany has lost the plot, and as for Eurostar, i will not take the risk of having my holiday ruined by Illegal Immigrants. Just as i was starting to enjoy using Eurostar! The EU needs to get a grip, not encourage the problem!

No - it's Britain that has lost the plot, but thinking it can meddle abroad and deal with none of the consequences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the distinction does need to be made between refugees and migrants more. Most of the mainstream press seem to focus on the refugees with children which is quite right but the lesser known press (and not reports like the ones from Britain First) seem to focus on the fact that the majority of these people seem to be men without women or children. Are these men refugees or migrants, and where are their families.

The fact that terrorists could use this crisis as an opportunity to sneak into European countries must also not be ignored but I am not sure what checks could be put into place to identify this potential vast minority.

People are also quite right when they say that Britain could do more to help "their own". If the UK plc can identify money to spend on refugees and overseas aid, then as a tax payer I should be able to ask the question why certain British people living in Britain are ignored - the homeless, those living in austerity, ex-service men/women, single parents living on a shoestring etc... Just because they do not make mainstream news doesn't mean they don't exist either.

The question also needs to be asked that if Britain does take in xxx amounts of refugees, how would that affect local & national services like the NHS and would any measures be put into place to improve services where the settlement of refugees is placed.

I don't think that there is an easy solution to the refugee crisis, but identifying refugees from migrants would be a good start as would identifying and helping families over individuals too.

Whilst those are valid concerns, we have to ask *where do these refugees go*? We cannot solely be focused on ourselves and pretend this isn't our problem. Dumping them all on Turkey and Lebanon, who between them have already taken over 2 million, and complaining that we have to take a few tens of thousands shows a gross lack of perspective.

After all, 20,000 refugees is not much higher than the number of babies born *per week* in the UK. It's really not going to have the slightest impact on our infrastructure.

 

[telstarbox]

I found the article below eye-opening in explaining the 'push' factors for migration towards Europe. The line between 'economic migrants' and 'refugees' is also blurred as states such as Libya no longer have a functioning economy and this effectively forces people to leave, even if they are not in a frontline war zone.

Both David Cameron and the people smugglers quoted in the article have said that allowing people direct movement from the origin countries would remove the significant dangers involved in crossing the Mediterranean (and similarly at the Channel Tunnel).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rs-how-will-they-catch-us-theyll-soon-move-on

But beyond the destruction of specific boats, conversations with smugglers, refugees and coastguards along the shores of west Libya suggest there are other, more long-term strategies for curbing the flow of people across the Mediterranean. The message from refugees is clear: find us a safer option. Often fleeing dictatorship, war or hunger at home and faced with further conflict and exploitation in supposedly safer havens like Libya, to many refugees the Mediterranean seems the least bad option.

“It is not our choice to penetrate the sea,” said Keflemekal from Eritrea, one of the world’s harshest dictatorships. “If we got some help from the Libyan government, from UNHCR, we would try something else. But if the government won’t help us, if UNHCR won’t help us, if no one can help us, then the only option is to go to the smugglers.”

 

[Qwerty133]

Germany and Sweden are just making the problem worse by accepting so many migrants. The (at least partially economic) migrants (Only the ones in Turkey deserve to be called refugees, as they have sought A safe country, not a particular country).
Europe should start sending ALL of the migrants arriving illegally back, as this is the only way to stop the traffickers getting so much custom.
The most dangered refugees should be bought to Europe using legal means, but countries such as the UK which already have a housing crisis should get less than countries such as Germany who have an ageing population meaning before long more than half of the population will be retired.
Its a massive shame that more people didn't point out that the boy in all the propaganda photos wouldn't have died if his parents weren't so greedy to try and get to a country of there choice instead of accepting that the safe country of Turkey is where they should have remained

 

[telstarbox]

The housing crisis doesn't really come into it as refugees are housed by local authorities either in their own designated accommodation or in the least desirable private rented properties which nobody else will touch. They're not 'competing' with mass market buyers or tenants.