Europhoenix acquire Class 91s for use overseas

[ExRes]

WNXX update this evening says that this is a joint venture with Voith for up to 20 Class 91s to be re-geared after export as freight hauling pairs in blunt end to blunt end formation

One thing that needs to be remembered, I would suggest, as people are thinking along the lines of re-geared locos being used here is the comment on WNXX, assuming it's correct of course, " .. for up to 20 Class 91s to be re-geared after export ....." after export, not before

 

[Speed43125]

One thing that needs to be remembered, I would suggest, as people are thinking along the lines of re-geared locos being used here is the comment on WNXX, assuming it's correct of course, " .. for up to 20 Class 91s to be re-geared after export ....." after export, not before

This must therefore mean the refurb work is primarily going to occur in the destination market then, makes sense, with cheaper labour and all for that to be.

 

[dubscottie]

One thing that needs to be remembered, I would suggest, as people are thinking along the lines of re-geared locos being used here is the comment on WNXX, assuming it's correct of course, " .. for up to 20 Class 91s to be re-geared after export ....." after export, not before

EuroPhoenix has stated the same on their Facebook page. They will be converted once abroad so its not just a rumour.

 

[hexagon789]

EuroPhoenix has stated the same on their Facebook page. They will be converted once abroad so its not just a rumour.

Makes sense if they are going to be used on OLE testing over here first

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm still sceptical about how successful these will be, given that there are plenty of other locos available for hire.
A Taurus or TRAXX would be a much better investment tbh

 

[James James]

I thought they had plenty of ex-DB/DR 26m stuff? Surely that's got a longer wheelbase than our Mk4s?

That plus low platforms make me doubt clearance being an issue. The low platforms however make it rather hard to board a Mk4, which is more likely to be the real reason (withous significant work to add stairs a la night nightstar/renaissance).

WNXX update this evening says that this is a joint venture with Voith for up to 20 Class 91s to be re-geared after export as freight hauling pairs in blunt end to blunt end formation

That would put the pantographs close together, which seems like it would be less than optimal - unless they also perma-couple the 2 units and add a high-voltage connection between them?

 

[hwl]

That plus low platforms make me doubt clearance being an issue. The low platforms however make it rather hard to board a Mk4, which is more likely to be the real reason (withous significant work to add stairs a la night nightstar/renaissance).


That would put the pantographs close together, which seems like it would be less than optimal - unless they also perma-couple the 2 units and add a high-voltage connection between them?

At lower freight speeds 2 pantographs close together won't be an issue see the 86 pairs every day!

 

[hexagon789]

That plus low platforms make me doubt clearance being an issue. The low platforms however make it rather hard to board a Mk4, which is more likely to be the real reason (withous significant work to add stairs a la night nightstar/renaissance).

I doubt it would happen anyway, but if they really wanted them I'm sure they could modify the door access accordingly.

 

[malc-c]

91's being dragged through Watton-at-Stone this morning - Plus the bonus of a Pullman charter

 

[High Dyke]

66786, 91117, 91120 running as 0Z91, the irony. Passed Frisby about 7 minutes ago.

 

[Ken H]

I thought the Cl91 was designed to be mixed traffic. The idea they did crack expresses during the day and freight and sleepers by night. I think they tested one doing a standing start with a heavy train on a steep gradient in Cumbria.

 

[Speed43125]

I thought the Cl91 was designed to be mixed traffic. The idea they did crack expresses during the day and freight and sleepers by night. I think they tested one doing a standing start with a heavy train on a steep gradient in Cumbria.

The idea was they could do parcels workings at nights yes, but Sectorisation and the fact they have a 'right' way around for running, put a stop to that. They've not worked a parcel at all in about 30 years, so starting now, especially with the 140 gearing, is likely a non-starter.
ROG's 769s overall seem more suited to such a role, if and when they actually get around to being in service.

 

[Ianno87]

66786, 91117, 91120 running as 0Z91, the irony. .

Possibly a train planner with a sense of humour

 

[_toommm_]

Possibly a train planner with a sense of humour

Same as the TPE light loco runs running as 0B68

 

[Monty]

I'll be interested to know how useful they will be to their new operator even after refurbishment and regearing. Given the state of the track in some parts of Eastern Europe and that LNER had been struggling to maintain them as they are I can't see them being very reliable and efficient on heavy freight.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'll be interested to know how useful they will be to their new operator even after refurbishment and regearing. Given the state of the track in some parts of Eastern European and that LNER had been struggling to maintain them as they are I can't see them being very reliable and efficient on heavy freight.

I guess LNER are doing the minimum to keep them in service. If you are going to keep them for 10-15 years you can invest more like the re-engineered HSTs.

it is odd how times have changed. In the past the 91s would be heading to London - Norwich or MML (which the “cast offs” would assist with the business case for electrifying it)

But I am happy they are not going to the breakers yet. Yes they are 30 years old, but if someone can find a use for them that is better than scrapping.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'll be interested to know how useful they will be to their new operator even after refurbishment and regearing. Given the state of the track in some parts of Eastern European and that LNER had been struggling to maintain them as they are I can't see them being very reliable and efficient on heavy freight.

Personally I think it is a mistake, the Bulgarian operator is much better off getting TRAXX, Vectrons or some old DB locos, through a leasing company like MRCE or Railpool. Rather than some clapped out British locos which were never designed for freight

 

[Siemens Staines]

The problem with the old DB locos is that they are 15kV and the BDZ system is 25kV. I agree TRAXX/Vectrons would be better solution but I guess cost may the issue? Obviously I have no idea of the financials involved but if the alternative for the 91s was the scrapyard then Europhoenix may have got hold of them relatively cheaply, added a profit margin and still be able to provide a cheap solution to Bulgaria. But if they were to look at cast offs then I would have though a much better fit than 91s, would be ex SNCF BB26000 which were specifically designed as multi purpose passenger and freight locos, built 1988-1998 and being withdrawn in increasing numbers. The fact this isn't happening says more about the monolithic SNCF than it does about the suitability of their locos to be sold on.

 

[Roast Veg]

Just seen these at Leicester - at least one of them retains a small band of Virgin/LNER red around the headlights and horn. Clearly a piece of vinyl that thin isn't worth it!

 

[ainsworth74]

There was a lot of off-topic discussion about 91s and Mk4s around whether they should have been replaced and other potential future uses. Those posts have been moved to a new thread which can be found here. The thread we are now in should only be used to discuss the Europhoenix project to recondition some 91s for use overseas.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the Cl91 was designed to be mixed traffic. The idea they did crack expresses during the day and freight and sleepers by night. I think they tested one doing a standing start with a heavy train on a steep gradient in Cumbria.

Designed to haul 520 tonnes by day and 750 tonnes by night. Two together would make 1500 tonnes and a regearing would easily increase that.

Presumably Europhenix could add ballast weights to improve adhesion as well.

 

[E_Reeves]

Notice the liveries on the two are slightly different. Wonder why this might be?

 

[Jonny]

Designed to haul 520 tonnes by day and 750 tonnes by night. Two together would make 1500 tonnes and a regearing would easily increase that.

Presumably Europhenix could add ballast weights to improve adhesion as well.

I can see how they could readily be re-geared; adding ballast might be a bit more complicated though and other locos seem to do just fine without the extra weight.

 

[hexagon789]

I can see how they could readily be re-geared; adding ballast might be a bit more complicated though and other locos seem to do just fine without the extra weight.

I guess they are about the same weight as an 87 and they've done alright.

 

[mpthomson]

Personally I think it is a mistake, the Bulgarian operator is much better off getting TRAXX, Vectrons or some old DB locos, through a leasing company like MRCE or Railpool. Rather than some clapped out British locos which were never designed for freight

They were designed to haul freight and tested in that role. They were dual purpose engines.

 

[VagueShot]

I spoke to a colleague the other day who said ROG were getting 2X91's for testing the new wires on the MML.

Wikipedia says there's a lot of space in the body of Class 91 locomotives, so could this me used for instrumentation to check out the overhead wires?

 

[ExRes]

Designed to haul 520 tonnes by day and 750 tonnes by night. Two together would make 1500 tonnes and a regearing would easily increase that.

Presumably Europhenix could add ballast weights to improve adhesion as well.

Highly unlikely Europhoenix will do anything to them at all, unless they absolutely have to in order to get a sale that is, any work on them is intended to be done once they have been exported

 

[Railperf]

The problem with the old DB locos is that they are 15kV and the BDZ system is 25kV. I agree TRAXX/Vectrons would be better solution but I guess cost may the issue? Obviously I have no idea of the financials involved but if the alternative for the 91s was the scrapyard then Europhoenix may have got hold of them relatively cheaply, added a profit margin and still be able to provide a cheap solution to Bulgaria. But if they were to look at cast offs then I would have though a much better fit than 91s, would be ex SNCF BB26000 which were specifically designed as multi purpose passenger and freight locos, built 1988-1998 and being withdrawn in increasing numbers. The fact this isn't happening says more about the monolithic SNCF than it does about the suitability of their locos to be sold on.

BB26000s are fantastic loco's designed to pull 16 Corail vehicles at 200kph or 2000 t of freight at 80 kph (50mph). Ironically they look similar to our Class 90s.
Weren't the tri voltage BB36000s even better with 220kph 137mph passenger vehicle capability? By then, all 200kph+ services were going TGV.
Make even a pair of 91s look feeble for freight use. I'm not convinced!

 

[bastien]

The problem with the old DB locos is that they are 15kV and the BDZ system is 25kV. I agree TRAXX/Vectrons would be better solution but I guess cost may the issue? Obviously I have no idea of the financials involved but if the alternative for the 91s was the scrapyard then Europhoenix may have got hold of them relatively cheaply, added a profit margin and still be able to provide a cheap solution to Bulgaria. But if they were to look at cast offs then I would have though a much better fit than 91s, would be ex SNCF BB26000 which were specifically designed as multi purpose passenger and freight locos, built 1988-1998 and being withdrawn in increasing numbers. The fact this isn't happening says more about the monolithic SNCF than it does about the suitability of their locos to be sold on.

It could be that the engineers in Bulgaria are used to locos with DC traction motors and so on?

 

[87015]

It could be that the engineers in Bulgaria are used to locos with DC traction motors and so on?

Most of the private stuff gets heavy maintenance at the same place, they can cope with anything from old school Skoda to brand new Vectrons.