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Eurostar "may cap services" EES data congestion?

BahrainLad

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Eurostar have decided - and they are correct - that there is far more money to be made from selling seats at last minute for sky high prices, because the vast majority of passengers buying those tickets at such short notice will essentially be travelling for emergencies (business or personal) and therefore they (or someone on their behalf) will have to pay. If that means trains leave with empty seats then the increased yield more than makes up for it. If you removed this revenue stream by offering last minute seats for very low fares, you'd probably find ticket prices across the board would need to rise as a result.
 
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paul1609

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I've certainly had day trips to the continent by air from Manchester, so if I lived around the SE then certainly using Eurostar for a day out in Brussels or Lille would be high on the list! St Pancras to Lille takes about the same time as London to Eastbourne?? And yes,, on a whim, just like I'd take a day out in Blackpool from Manchester.

Edit - reading the above - if Eurostar find pax numbers declining maybe they will introduce cheap day returns to fill empty seats?
I suspect most day trip people travelling to Lille from the South east South of the Thames would go by car. From my house on the Kent/Sussex border Lille is about 3 hours 135 miles, Brussels 4 hours 185 miles, Paris, 5 hours 245 miles. This includes the train most of the time.
Think Northampton/Birmingham/Stoke on Trent for UK equivalents, the higher road speeds on the continent wipe out the hour or so going through the tunnel.
Paris is the only centre I wouldnt drive into out of choice but its easy to just drive to frethun and get on a domestic train there.
 

RT4038

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I suspect most day trip people travelling to Lille from the South east South of the Thames would go by car. From my house on the Kent/Sussex border Lille is about 3 hours 135 miles, Brussels 4 hours 185 miles, Paris, 5 hours 245 miles. This includes the train most of the time.
Think Northampton/Birmingham/Stoke on Trent for UK equivalents, the higher road speeds on the continent wipe out the hour or so going through the tunnel.
Paris is the only centre I wouldnt drive into out of choice but its easy to just drive to frethun and get on a domestic train there.
I doubt that this is a sizeable market though (day trips to Lille from the South East, south of the Thames) which could be captured to train, bearing in mind that day trips will often involve quantities of shopping that are inconvenient on public transport. Likewise, many will discount a family trip by train because of the sheer convenience their car gives, irrespective of what they might say about the fares (and the larger the family the less price competitive individual tickets by public transport is, whatever journey you make).
 

Howardh

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I doubt that this is a sizeable market though (day trips to Lille from the South East, south of the Thames) which could be captured to train, bearing in mind that day trips will often involve quantities of shopping that are inconvenient on public transport. Likewise, many will discount a family trip by train because of the sheer convenience their car gives, irrespective of what they might say about the fares (and the larger the family the less price competitive individual tickets by public transport is, whatever journey you make).
Do, or did, many go to Eurodisney for a day out from the UK? Not making a point, just asking!
 

RT4038

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Do, or did, many go to Eurodisney for a day out from the UK? Not making a point, just asking!
According to my Cook's Summer 2018 timetable, the train was only there from 14h08 to 16h52, so probably not. I think it was more for those staying several nights there.
 

paul1609

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I doubt that this is a sizeable market though (day trips to Lille from the South East, south of the Thames) which could be captured to train, bearing in mind that day trips will often involve quantities of shopping that are inconvenient on public transport. Likewise, many will discount a family trip by train because of the sheer convenience their car gives, irrespective of what they might say about the fares (and the larger the family the less price competitive individual tickets by public transport is, whatever journey you make).
From my experience the day trip market is quite significant but I dont think Eurostar ever gained a significant share. One of the issues that you dont touch on is that a lot of the "Nice" day trip destinations are much easier to reach by car than they are by Public transport. I'm thinking Brugge, Ypres, Le Touquet, Baie de la Somme and the WW2 sites etc..
I once took some visitors from Manchester for Lunch in Brugge and if you heard their reports afterwards I might well have arranged a trip to Mars.
 

AlbertBeale

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From my experience the day trip market is quite significant but I dont think Eurostar ever gained a significant share. One of the issues that you dont touch on is that a lot of the "Nice" day trip destinations are much easier to reach by car than they are by Public transport. I'm thinking Brugge, Ypres, Le Touquet, Baie de la Somme and the WW2 sites etc..
I once took some visitors from Manchester for Lunch in Brugge and if you heard their reports afterwards I might well have arranged a trip to Mars.

I often used the cheap day return rail/ferry trip from London to Calais for a day out in France. (If you had a bike with you, the Folkestone transfer, and getting into town from Calais port, was a doddle.) And that was a longer journey than all the way to Paris on Eurostar. Which is why I'm sure a sufficiently low-priced day return to Paris would do a roaring trade....
 

AlbertBeale

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I often used the cheap day return rail/ferry trip from London to Calais for a day out in France. (If you had a bike with you, the Folkestone transfer, and getting into town from Calais port, was a doddle.) And that was a longer journey than all the way to Paris on Eurostar. Which is why I'm sure a sufficiently low-priced day return to Paris would do a roaring trade....

But make less money.

Possibly both are true...
 

MarcVD

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I doubt there were any cross border checking in trains in Europe where the border officials were riding a non-stop train for upwards of two and a half hours (with the sheer expense of that quantity of border officials and security crew required).

That happened every day on the two TEE train pairs that did Brussels - Paris non stop in about 2h40.
 

Bald Rick

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Possibly both are true...

well of course.

I suspect BA wiuld do a roaring trade from Heathrow to New York if they offered sufficiently low priced returns not requiring a Saturday night stay. They‘d soon be out of business, too.
 

paul1609

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I often used the cheap day return rail/ferry trip from London to Calais for a day out in France. (If you had a bike with you, the Folkestone transfer, and getting into town from Calais port, was a doddle.) And that was a longer journey than all the way to Paris on Eurostar. Which is why I'm sure a sufficiently low-priced day return to Paris would do a roaring trade....
What price do you estimate would be "sufficiently low enough" given that a St Pancras to Folkestone Off Peak Day Return with a huge taxpayer subsidy is £50?
 

AlbertBeale

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What price do you estimate would be "sufficiently low enough" given that a St Pancras to Folkestone Off Peak Day Return with a huge taxpayer subsidy is £50?

London-Calais day return tickets were cheaper than London-Dover ones (and without the normal peak restrictions of a cheap day return); I can't now remember the actual price, but - around a decade ago I guess - far far lower than £50 return, maybe half that. I take the point that selling cheap tickets to fill seats isn't financially sensible if if stops sale of the places to people who'd pay a lot more. But are there very many people trying to buy high-price day return tickets at the last minute? It seems unlikely. Are there often vacant seats? On some days, presumably there are. [I got a Brussels/Amsterdam train one morning recently, at what I'd assume is peak time, but the train was at least half empty in Standard Class.]

Perhaps the way it would work would be based on a guaranteed return that day (ie, assuming you paid by card, your card would be stung for a large amount if the return ticket wasn't used), combined with very tight baggage restrictions, and a stand-by situation where you'd buy your ticket at StP in the morning without a guarantee you'd be on a particular train.

To answer the question, I'd pay a few tens of pounds for a last-minute on spec day return to Brussels or Paris. (Though I don't see the relevance of the subsidy on a domestic ticket that you refer to - assuming that's correct - to the pricing of a non-government-owned international ticket.)
 

CyrusWuff

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London-Calais day return tickets were cheaper than London-Dover ones (and without the normal peak restrictions of a cheap day return); I can't now remember the actual price
Doing a spot of digging, they were last sold at £45.80 from London Terminals.
 

riceuten

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People's responses to this will definitely be swayed by their own political leanings, and so I think its important that this is stated from the outset. Whatever the other arguments of EU membership are - and this is probably not the best place to debate them in detail, freedom of movement and/or the single market was an advantage to most people. When I was canvassing for remain, a large proportion of leave voters locally said they didn't care about the former as "they didn't have a passport and never went abroad anyway"

I am old enough to remember on train immigration checks in both directions (and a trolley service in 2nd class, and the ability to make phone calls from a phone on the train), and I believe the on train immigration checks were abandoned on cost grounds. There was then a huge queue at Brussels - 20 minutes was not unusual - which could be circumvented by taking a tunnel to the Thalys platform, and then exiting from there. The latter was supposed to be passport controlled, but even when it was, there was rarely more than a couple of passengers taking this route, and you could exit the station much quicker this way than waiting in line.

For Brussels to Lille travel on Eurostar, there is a separate terminal which doesn't require passport control, and you board in a different part of the train.
I think you were supposed to remain in this carriage throughout the 33 minute journey and there were - at least initially - staff to enforce this. It became an obsession of the Daily Mail for a while.

It reminds me of an EC train in Italy that crossed into Switzerland which you were required to remain in a dedicated carriage. .
 

AlbertBeale

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Doing a spot of digging, they were last sold at £45.80 from London Terminals.

Aha - how recent was that. (I'm interested in how recently the tickets existed, and how much they'd gone up since I used them. I'm sure they were far less than that when I was doing the trip a decade - or so... - ago.) Thanks.

People's responses to this will definitely be swayed by their own political leanings, and so I think its important that this is stated from the outset. Whatever the other arguments of EU membership are - and this is probably not the best place to debate them in detail, freedom of movement and/or the single market was an advantage to most people. When I was canvassing for remain, a large proportion of leave voters locally said they didn't care about the former as "they didn't have a passport and never went abroad anyway"

Without going into those arguments - as you say, not the place - a factual point that "freedom of movement" and "the single market" (ie free trade) probably shouldn't be linked. The people who benefited from one didn't necessarily benefit from the other, and vice versa. Clearly many people felt (rightly or wrongly) that free trade was a disbenefit for them, even if they liked freedom of movement.
 

Chester1

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Without going into those arguments - as you say, not the place - a factual point that "freedom of movement" and "the single market" (ie free trade) probably shouldn't be linked. The people who benefited from one didn't necessarily benefit from the other, and vice versa. Clearly many people felt (rightly or wrongly) that free trade was a disbenefit for them, even if they liked freedom of movement.

We live in a culturally polarised country. There is a small but loud group of people are outraged that they will have to provide their fingerprints to the EU "because of Brexit" while a substantial minority of the population either cannot afford to travel abroad or have no interest. The latter probably care more about security and EES/ETIAS and UK ETA will help. A database of the fingerprints and photos of all foreign visitors and residents will help police on both sides of the channel. I don’t know about the EU but in UK there is a legal right to have fingerprint records deleted after becoming a British Citizen (unless collected as part of a police investigation).
 

CyrusWuff

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Aha - how recent was that. (I'm interested in how recently the tickets existed, and how much they'd gone up since I used them. I'm sure they were far less than that when I was doing the trip a decade - or so... - ago.) Thanks.
That was as of the January 2020 fare change, and it looks like they were removed in January 2021.
 

Birkonian

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I live in Merseyside so I wouldn't be able to do day trips regularly. If a cheap day return fare existed I would be interested as part of a long weekend in London. There would be a market for day trips to Brussels and Lille for beer tourists. There are plenty of them.
 

paul1609

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That was as of the January 2020 fare change, and it looks like they were removed in January 2021.
The background to these tickets was quite interesting. Originally they were priced as a London to Dover cheap day return plus a supplement for the ferry, because the journey was so long they didnt have the off peak restrictions and at one time could even be used with a network card before its time restrictions.
Sales dropped off considerably when the Uk joined the EEC and duty free was abolished, to the extent that Southeastern had more or less forgotten about them.
This was compounded by the tunnel opening. They enjoyed a brief renaissance when hs1 open throughout as they hadnt been made "not hs1" and a rail magazine pointed out (barry Doe?) that they were actually the cheapest ticket to Ashford and beyond. This was corrected and in the last few years sales had fallen to about 300 pa, less than 1 perday from all stations. Realistically if you used the original concept the London to Calais Route HS1 P&Othe fare now would be around £75 to 80.
 

yorksrob

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This is my plan.

Put a barrier down the middle of platforms 3&4 at Ashford International. Have 3 as landward side and 4 tunnelward. Put border checks in the waiting room between the two.

Run a conventional train non-stop Victoria to Ashford Plat 3. Passengers would only need sight of the international train ticket to board at Vic.

When the train gets into Ashford, the Chunnel service would be waiting in platform 4 and people could go through border checks there.

And repeat in reverse.
 

Taunton

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And repeat in reverse.
I think we do need to recognise the very considerable issues the border staff have with those who wish to circumvent the checks. Running round the end of the barriers would be the start of it (it was an issue for a while at Gare du Nord until got to grips with it), and for every such "scheme" to date there have been those trying to evade it.
 

yorksrob

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I think we do need to recognise the very considerable issues the border staff have with those who wish to circumvent the checks. Running round the end of the barriers would be the start of it (it was an issue for a while at Gare du Nord until got to grips with it), and for every such "scheme" to date there have been those trying to evade it.

I suppose there would also be a difficulty in having two sets of passengers passing in opposite directions come to think of it.
 

thaitransit

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I wonder why Eurostar was set up like this instead of treating it as a normal train that has a UK immigration stop near the UK tunnel entrance and French immigration at the French tunnel exit. Yes it would mean all trains make two stops but it would allow direct no transfer trains from anywhere in the UK to anywhere in Europe all for a couple of hours of inconvenience at the tunnel. Eg you could take a train from Manchester to Rome and only get off just for the immigration stops.
 

AlastairFraser

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I wonder why Eurostar was set up like this instead of treating it as a normal train that has a UK immigration stop near the UK tunnel entrance and French immigration at the French tunnel exit. Yes it would mean all trains make two stops but it would allow direct no transfer trains from anywhere in the UK to anywhere in Europe all for a couple of hours of inconvenience at the tunnel. Eg you could take a train from Manchester to Rome and only get off just for the immigration stops.
Mostly because you'd have to procure a whole different set of stock for UK to Europe operations that didn't use HS1/Eurotunnel, due to the smaller UK loading gauge.
A small fleet was procured, but the plan never worked sadly.
More info here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Eurostar
 

stuu

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I wonder why Eurostar was set up like this instead of treating it as a normal train that has a UK immigration stop near the UK tunnel entrance and French immigration at the French tunnel exit. Yes it would mean all trains make two stops but it would allow direct no transfer trains from anywhere in the UK to anywhere in Europe all for a couple of hours of inconvenience at the tunnel. Eg you could take a train from Manchester to Rome and only get off just for the immigration stops.
Why would anyone go by train then? That would put a massive hole in the business case. Putting immigration first is far more sensible, if a lot less sensible than joining Schengen
 

philg999

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I wonder why Eurostar was set up like this instead of treating it as a normal train that has a UK immigration stop near the UK tunnel entrance and French immigration at the French tunnel exit. Yes it would mean all trains make two stops but it would allow direct no transfer trains from anywhere in the UK to anywhere in Europe all for a couple of hours of inconvenience at the tunnel. Eg you could take a train from Manchester to Rome and only get off just for the immigration stops.
Because they wanted to make Eurostar a compelling alternative to flying. The end-to-end journey time matters. It is unfortunate that they do not *also* provide a local service through the tunnel with connections at either end though! They could easily have built passenger facilities for that near the le shuttle terminals.
 

RT4038

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I wonder why Eurostar was set up like this instead of treating it as a normal train that has a UK immigration stop near the UK tunnel entrance and French immigration at the French tunnel exit. Yes it would mean all trains make two stops but it would allow direct no transfer trains from anywhere in the UK to anywhere in Europe all for a couple of hours of inconvenience at the tunnel. Eg you could take a train from Manchester to Rome and only get off just for the immigration stops.
'Normal' train? There are relatively very few trains around the world that cross borders with immigration control nowadays. A couple of hours inconvenience is rather a lot as a percentage on a 2 and a quarter hour journey from London to Paris, which is surely always going to be the major market, and on any journey is going to worsen journey time comparison and therefore competition with air.

It is unfortunate that they do not *also* provide a local service through the tunnel with connections at either end though! They could easily have built passenger facilities for that near the le shuttle terminals.
Presumably because it would be hopelessly uneconomic.
 

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