Eurostar... Why so many trains?

[DynamicSpirit]

I've just read this article on Rail Technology Magazine, which claims Eurostar are going to buy new trains, bringing their fleet up from 51 trains to 67 trains:

Eurostar is planning to invest in up to 50 new trains as it looks to modernise and meet its targets for future growth.

As demand for sustainable travel continues to grow, the investment will create enough capacity to ensure that Eurostar can reach its target of carrying 30 million passengers annually by 2030.

The new fleet will eventually operate alongside Eurostar’s existing fleet of 17 e320s, providing a total fleet of 67 trains. Eurostar currently has a fleet of 51 trains, comprising 8 e300s, 17 PBKAs and 9 PBAs, which look set to be replaced in the fleet overhaul.

By my reckoning, Eurostar runs about 1tph London-Paris. 2 hour 20 mins journey time, and if you allow an hour dwell at each end that would require about 7 trainsets.
Then you have about 1 train per 2 hours to Brussels, 3 hour journey time, so needs about 4 maybe 5 trainsets.
Granted there's a few other daily journeys (the Amsterdam ones) plus some trains will be being serviced, but there's no way that adds up to needing anything even remotely near the 51 trainsets the article claims Eurostar currently run, let alone the 67 they are expanding to.

This has piqued my curiosity. What are the other trains doing? Why does Eurostar have so many?

 

[hexagon789]

I've just read this article on Rail Technology Magazine, which claims Eurostar are going to buy new trains, bringing their fleet up from 51 trains to 67 trains:



By my reckoning, Eurostar runs about 1tph London-Paris. 2 hour 20 mins journey time, and if you allow an hour dwell at each end that would require about 7 trainsets.
Then you have about 1 train per 2 hours to Brussels, 3 hour journey time, so needs about 4 maybe 5 trainsets.
Granted there's a few other daily journeys (the Amsterdam ones) plus some trains will be being serviced, but there's no way that adds up to needing anything even remotely near the 51 trainsets the article claims Eurostar currently run, let alone the 67 they are expanding to.

This has piqued my curiosity. What are the other trains doing? Why does Eurostar have so many?

They have 54 trainsets:

9 TGV PBA
17 TGV PBKA
11 Eurostar e300
17 Eurostar e320

And you may have overlooked that Eurostar includes the former Thalys network now, which the article is including.

 

[stadler]

I have always thought as well that the Eurostar fleet is extremely excessive. Even the traditional Eurostar fleet for the London service seems very excessive. I have never understood why they need 28 units for the London service. It is far too many.

London to Paris is 2 hours and 15 minutes roughly. So for an hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need six trains. This gives a 45 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

London to Brussels is 2 hours and 5 minues roughly. So for a two hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need three trains. This gives a 55 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

Now that we have Amsterdam that probably adds a requirement of another two trains. It is only an infrequent service.

So that is around eleven or twelve trains that are required for the traditional Eurostar services. This is with generous turnarounds. You could probably make do with ten trains if you had tight turnarounds.

Even if they wanted to increase the frequency and make Brussels hourly like Paris then they would only need three extra trains. So fifteen or sixteen units would be more than enough to cover services. So i can not see how they are using so many units.

But yet Eurostar currently have 28 units (11x 373 plus 17x 374) for London services which seems hugely excessive. I have always been baffled by the need for so many. Of course you want a few spares but i would have thought the 374 fleet of 17 units would be more than enough (that allows plenty of spare units) so i am not sure why they kept their 373 fleet of 11 units.

 

[D7666]

I can not answer why, but ITYF the proportion of units seemingly needed for E* operations compared to the 374/373 fleet size is not dissimilar to that of SNCF TGV operations and respective TGV fleet sizes. SNCF TGV fleet sizes have been similarly questioned on French anorak message boards without satisfactory answer.

 

[zwk500]

But yet Eurostar currently have 28 units (11x 373 plus 17x 374) for London services which seems hugely excessive. I have always been baffled by the need for so many. Of course you want a few spares but i would have thought the 374 fleet of 17 units would be more than enough (that allows plenty of spare units) so i am not sure why they kept their 373 fleet of 11 units.

Part of it is maintenance cycles and stabling in each location overnight, as well as the various proposals for more services when the units were ordered (373s obviously used to run the ski trains, 374s are german-compatible). It's still probably over-egged though, however it would be extremely embarassing for the flagship international service to suffer from stock shortages so I can understand trying to get as many trains as possible especially with the certification problems of running across up to 5 countries and the Channel Tunnel.

 

[Halish Railway]

I have always thought as well that the Eurostar fleet is extremely excessive. Even the traditional Eurostar fleet for the London service seems very excessive. I have never understood why they need 28 units for the London service. It is far too many.

London to Paris is 2 hours and 15 minutes roughly. So for an hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need six trains. This gives a 45 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

London to Brussels is 2 hours and 5 minues roughly. So for a two hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need three trains. This gives a 55 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

Now that we have Amsterdam that probably adds a requirement of another two trains. It is only an infrequent service.

So that is around eleven or twelve trains that are required for the traditional Eurostar services. This is with generous turnarounds. You could probably make do with ten trains if you had tight turnarounds.

Even if they wanted to increase the frequency and make Brussels hourly like Paris then they would only need three extra trains. So fifteen or sixteen units would be more than enough to cover services. So i can not see how they are using so many units.

But yet Eurostar currently have 28 units (11x 373 plus 17x 374) for London services which seems hugely excessive. I have always been baffled by the need for so many. Of course you want a few spares but i would have thought the 374 fleet of 17 units would be more than enough (that allows plenty of spare units) so i am not sure why they kept their 373 fleet of 11 units.

I would imagine that those in charge of customs arrangements would want much more than 45 minutes to turn the train around so that the train and platform can be completely cleared of passengers and counted through the exit checks before the return working begins boarding, plus some performance slack. But I agree that there current fleet is excessive. Bear in mind that the current fleet was originally intended to provide the pre-Covid hourly service from London to Paris and Brussels, with (four?) trains to Amsterdam on top of that rather than being an extension of the Brussels services and occasional services to Marne-la-Vallée, Marseille, Bourg Saint-Maurice and potential future expansions to the likes of Bordeaux, Madrid and Frankfurt.

The fifty new trains statistic is interesting, i.e. a complete replacement of TGV-derived trains, but what we don't know is the length of these new trains. If a significant percentage of these are 400m long then that'd represent an enormous uplift in capacity. Hopefully in the future all Paris to Amsterdam and Rhein/Ruhr services can be worked by 400m long trains.

 

[zwk500]

I would imagine that those in charge of customs arrangements would want much more than 45 minutes to turn the train around so that the train and platform can be completely cleared of passengers and counted through the exit checks before the return working begins boarding, plus some performance slack.

I'm fairly sure the minimum turnround at St Pancras is 25 or 30 minutes. It doesn't take long to clear the platform of arriving passengers, and boarding normally opens 20 minutes before departure but it's perfectly possible to board a lot quicker than that.

 

[Thames99]

Quote: so that the train and platform can be completely cleared of passengers and counted through the exit checks before the return working begins boarding

Do passengers get counted as they leave Eurostar trains? It doesn't seem like it, especially at Brussels or GdN, and I imagine that the possibility of missing the odd person our counting someone twice would not make it very accurate.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've just read this article on Rail Technology Magazine, which claims Eurostar are going to buy new trains, bringing their fleet up from 51 trains to 67 trains:

Recall Eurostar now also includes the old Thalys routes, it isn't just the cross-Channel services anymore, so includes Paris to Brussels, Cologne, and Amsterdam (and stations in between).

 

[zwk500]

Quote: so that the train and platform can be completely cleared of passengers and counted through the exit checks before the return working begins boarding

Do passengers get counted as they leave Eurostar trains? It doesn't seem like it, especially at Brussels or GdN, and I imagine that the possibility of missing the odd person our counting someone twice would not make it very accurate.

I'm almost certain they don't, and given that to get as far as the arrival platform you'd have already had your passport and bag scanned, and the platforms are secured, what level of security is really needed before boarding can start?

 

[Nunners]

Quote: so that the train and platform can be completely cleared of passengers and counted through the exit checks before the return working begins boarding

Do passengers get counted as they leave Eurostar trains? It doesn't seem like it, especially at Brussels or GdN, and I imagine that the possibility of missing the odd person our counting someone twice would not make it very accurate.

At the terminal platforms in Brussels, there are gates to walk through to exit, that I assume would count people out. Nothing at the other exits though, or at GdN

 

[deltic]

I've just read this article on Rail Technology Magazine, which claims Eurostar are going to buy new trains, bringing their fleet up from 51 trains to 67 trains:



By my reckoning, Eurostar runs about 1tph London-Paris. 2 hour 20 mins journey time, and if you allow an hour dwell at each end that would require about 7 trainsets.
Then you have about 1 train per 2 hours to Brussels, 3 hour journey time, so needs about 4 maybe 5 trainsets.
Granted there's a few other daily journeys (the Amsterdam ones) plus some trains will be being serviced, but there's no way that adds up to needing anything even remotely near the 51 trainsets the article claims Eurostar currently run, let alone the 67 they are expanding to.

This has piqued my curiosity. What are the other trains doing? Why does Eurostar have so many?

Dwell times at St Pancras are closer to 2 hours - keeping arriving and departing passengers separate complicates matters. At Amsterdam they are around 3hrs. It looks like the present schedule requires about 13/14 trainsets

 

[Trainbike46]

I have always thought as well that the Eurostar fleet is extremely excessive. Even the traditional Eurostar fleet for the London service seems very excessive. I have never understood why they need 28 units for the London service. It is far too many.

London to Paris is 2 hours and 15 minutes roughly. So for an hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need six trains. This gives a 45 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

London to Brussels is 2 hours and 5 minues roughly. So for a two hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need three trains. This gives a 55 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

Now that we have Amsterdam that probably adds a requirement of another two trains. It is only an infrequent service.

So that is around eleven or twelve trains that are required for the traditional Eurostar services. This is with generous turnarounds. You could probably make do with ten trains if you had tight turnarounds.

Even if they wanted to increase the frequency and make Brussels hourly like Paris then they would only need three extra trains. So fifteen or sixteen units would be more than enough to cover services. So i can not see how they are using so many units.

But yet Eurostar currently have 28 units (11x 373 plus 17x 374) for London services which seems hugely excessive. I have always been baffled by the need for so many. Of course you want a few spares but i would have thought the 374 fleet of 17 units would be more than enough (that allows plenty of spare units) so i am not sure why they kept their 373 fleet of 11 units.

I believe they have longer turn-arounds than you assume

The 4 Amsterdam services per day are spaced in a way that makes resourcing them fairly inefficient - and remember the 374s were ordered with a plan for growth.

If I understand it correctly, the 373s and 374s will also start being used for (Amsterdam-)Brussel-Paris services to allow more (and higher capacity) services than the PBA/PBKA fleet allows

 

[DanielB]

If I understand it correctly, the 373s and 374s will also start being used for (Amsterdam-)Brussel-Paris services to allow more (and higher capacity) services than the PBA/PBKA fleet allows

Correct, they will be used for Amsterdam - Paris. But when I'm not mistaken those will be return workings of a London - Amsterdam service once the terminal in Amsterdam is closed, offering a connection in Brussels for passengers towards London.

 

[AlbertBeale]

At the terminal platforms in Brussels, there are gates to walk through to exit, that I assume would count people out. Nothing at the other exits though, or at GdN

You can usually leave the platform in Brussels without going through the gate at the end - and even if you do, there's no sign that the couple of guys there are taking any notice of anything much at all, let alone counting!

And there's almost certainly no routine "counting them out again" in Paris or London either.

I've always assumed the fairly lengthy turnround times on Eurostar relate to a security sweep of the train after everyone's left it, as well as servicing/cleaning etc. But it does seem a bit unnecessarily slack.

 

[30907]

I've always assumed the fairly lengthy turnround times on Eurostar relate to a security sweep of the train after everyone's left it, as well as servicing/cleaning etc. But it does seem a bit unnecessarily slack.

It's generous, but it allows them to step up a set to cover a fault, rather than fetch one in from depot, and turn round in an hour.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Partly because, as mentioned already, stock utilisation in SNCF-related services is notoriously inefficient, as the timetabling doesn't seem to take any account of resource usage.

However, also hopefully for expansion. Thalys has been running the same fleet and presumably roughly the same timetable for almost 30 years, which is almost unbelievable when you look at how pretty much every other high speed operation has expanded.

I travelled just yesterday from Brussels to Aachen. Every seat on every Eurostar service was sold out(Almost every train Brussels - Amsterdam was sold out too). I took the ICE instead, it was full and standing, and DB will shortly make this route reservation mandatory. The route badly needs extra capacity. DB has doubled their capacity compared compared to 20 years ago, but it's not enough.

 

[rvdborgt]

I travelled just yesterday from Brussels to Aachen. Every seat on every Eurostar service was sold out(Almost every train Brussels - Amsterdam was sold out too). I took the ICE instead, it was full and standing, and DB will shortly make this route reservation mandatory. The route badly needs extra capacity. DB has doubled their capacity compared compared to 20 years ago, but it's not enough.

Mandatory reservations will be for this summer only, fortunately.
Whitsun Monday is one of the busiest days in the year. On a normal Sunday there would just be a few people standing (ICE 12 is usually the busiest coming from Cologne), but not a lot. Next year the late Sunday-only trains (ICE 318/319) will become daily from roughly Easter until Autumn holiday. There's certainly potential for more, especially if the service becomes more reliable again.

 

[Trainbike46]

Partly because, as mentioned already, stock utilisation in SNCF-related services is notoriously inefficient, as the timetabling doesn't seem to take any account of resource usage.

However, also hopefully for expansion. Thalys has been running the same fleet and presumably roughly the same timetable for almost 30 years, which is almost unbelievable when you look at how pretty much every other high speed operation has expanded.

I travelled just yesterday from Brussels to Aachen. Every seat on every Eurostar service was sold out(Almost every train Brussels - Amsterdam was sold out too). I took the ICE instead, it was full and standing, and DB will shortly make this route reservation mandatory. The route badly needs extra capacity. DB has doubled their capacity compared compared to 20 years ago, but it's not enough.

I believe Thalys/Eurostar red has increased utilisation of their fleet over that time, so there are more services (or more doubling up) from the same fleet. the parallel IC service on (Amsterdam-)Rotterdam-Brussel is going from 16x per day to 16x fast to Amsterdam and 16x slower to Rotterdam soon as well

For a while they had IZY running with a 373, so hopefully increasing utilisation of the 4 fleets will allow for more services and capacity (and hopefully they'll actually do that!)

 

[sh24]

Historically SNCF did maintenance work only during the day whereas BR practice was 24 hours. I believe that was one of the main reasons for the TGV fleet to be much larger than the number of operational diagrams. No idea if that also applies to Eurostar.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The Telegraph has already written an entire article expressing what was on my mind: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/05/16/battle-lines-drawn-race-build-new-eurostar-trains/

It's time for Alstom vs Siemens Round 2. What will win out - a common fleet, or French national pride?

Anyone know if there is anything preventing Eurostar-Red from using a double-deck TGV design?

 

[Trainbike46]

The Telegraph has already written an entire article expressing what was on my mind: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/05/16/battle-lines-drawn-race-build-new-eurostar-trains/

It's time for Alstom vs Siemens Round 2. What will win out - a common fleet, or French national pride?

Anyone know if there is anything preventing Eurostar-Red from using a double-deck TGV design?

possibly axle-load restrictions in the Netherlands for high-speed trains

EDIT: did some googling and the Dutch HSL is restricted to an axle-load of no more than 17.5 or 20 ton - sources disagree unfortunately. Current TRAXX locomotives exceed this, but the 374s comply (axle load of 17 ton), as do the the new ICNG (axle load of 15/17 ton, depending on the bogie)

 

[DanielB]

According to someone on the Dutch forums, the weight of passengers should also be taken into account for the axle-load. Apparently there are double-deckers available complying with this requirement, but only with reserved seating only as they will be too heavy when including the weight of standing passengers.

The Dutch HSL is pretty much built in a swamp, hence it has its limitations in axle-load just like many non high-speed routes have in the Netherlands.
Not likely to have it increased, InfraSpeed which manages the infrastructure is already not happy with the TRAXX locomotives as they cause additional maintenance costs. (Partially also due to the different way forces work on the tracks when using a curve built for 300 km/h with just 160 km/h)

 

[rvdborgt]

The Dutch HSL is pretty much built in a swamp,

Thick water, basically
But it's correct. Lines like Rotterdam/The Hague/Leiden-Utrecht need a lot of maintenance and can still be quite bumpy.

 

[rheingold103]

I've always assumed the fairly lengthy turnround times on Eurostar relate to a security sweep of the train after everyone's left it, as well as servicing/cleaning etc.

Indeed.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

According to someone on the Dutch forums

Please may you post the link to said forums?

 

[DanielB]

Please may you post the link to said forums?

Here you go, directly to the post I refer to. (Which is in Dutch obviously)

 

[Snow1964]

The fifty new trains statistic is interesting, i.e. a complete replacement of TGV-derived trains, but what we don't know is the length of these new trains. If a significant percentage of these are 400m long then that'd represent an enormous uplift in capacity. Hopefully in the future all Paris to Amsterdam and Rhein/Ruhr services can be worked by 400m long trains.

Yes does seem to be unclear if the 50 trains are 400m, or effectively 25 pairs of 200m

Even the 17 class 374 E320s have sometimes been referred to as 34 half trains (which technically they are, coupled back to back in pairs).

Eurostar have also said planning to extend to more cities, further announcements later. So don't know how many trains will be needed

 

[popeter45]

going for 200m units gives alot more flexability than 400m units so can see them potentially going with that
lets you do combine Paris/Brussels to London services in Lille
Pairs/London services splitting in Brussels with parts terminating there or even going to Cologne

 

[zwk500]

going for 200m units gives alot more flexability than 400m units so can see them potentially going with that
lets you do combine Paris/Brussels to London services in Lille
Pairs/London services splitting in Brussels with parts terminating there or even going to Cologne

Would 2x200m meet the evacuation requirements for the Tunnel, given the removal of the option to evacuate into the other half-set?