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Eurovision

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pitdiver

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I was on holiday in the Canary Islands on Saturday so watched the Spanish TV version of the show. They seemed very upset with the result. As for Sweden being the best hence the winner. Both me and my wife thought it was Rubbish couldn't understand a word she was saying. She was on another planet when the results were announced.
 
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nw1

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Some tabloid newspapers were suggesting last week that the UK's Eurovision contestant (Mae Muller) was applying for (or had applied for) a German passport so that she could go live in Spain and be able to tour Europe with minimal paperwork, and that she had, sometime in the past, supposedly tweeted that she "hated Britain".

Ah, ok, not as silly as all that, I suspect when she allegedly said she "hated Britain" she probably meant she hated British politics, which is rather different.

If she is eligible for a German passport (presumably the name "Muller" denotes German ancestry), then why not apply for one? It is considerably more valuable than a British one!
 

DanNCL

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Austria was my favourite this year. 'Who the hell is Edgar?' is a catchy fun song with a serious message behind it about how little artists that aren't massive stars are paid by streaming services such as Spotify. I was astonished when they only got 16 points from the public vote, they weren't going to win but I honestly expected them to be in the top 10.

I always thought that Loreen and Johnny Logan had something in common but could never quite work out what it was. Now we know, it's the ability to win Eurovision twice!
 

Old Yard Dog

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It was obvious on Saturday that the juries of so-called industry experts were totally out of touch with the people of Europe. Had the results been decided by the viewers in the 37 countries, Finland would have won by a landslide and Norway would have been third. Instead the Finns were cheated by tiny cohorts of people with undue influence who nobody knows. Indeed the BBC and other media were priming us for weeks with the prediction that Sweden was likely to win.

It is time for the BBC to use its influence and get jury votes scrapped. When the show visits the various countries, we want to know how the people voted rather than small committees. It adds to the fun if Greece always votes for Cyprus and vice versa. Sadly the late great Sir Terry Wogan got it into his head in his latter years that something sinister and political was going on when, in fact, the patterns were nothing more harmless than emigrants voting for their home countries.

A few people of a "remainer" persuasion also seem to think that many Europeans vote "against" the UK because of Brexit. They fail to appreciate that to get any votes in Eurovision, substantial numbers of people have to think that your song is better than the other 25. People vote "for" songs they like, they do not vote against anybody. Safe acts like Mae Muller simply don't stand out as the best.

Other than that, it was a great week and Liverpool did us proud.

(I went to the first SF and was blown away by the Norwegian entry - so I backed it at 16/1 hoping it would pay for my ticket like in 1998 when I backed Dana International at 7/1 after going to the final dress rehearsal in Birmingham. No such luck. The Liverpool crowd were going mad for Finland.)
 
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Mcr Warrior

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If she is eligible for a German passport (presumably the name "Muller" denotes German ancestry), then why not apply for one? It is considerably more valuable than a British one!
Seems Ms. Muller has a Jewish background, her grandfather reportedly having had to flee Nazi Germany (for Wales) as a 12 year old. Apparently, modern day Germany has recently set up a scheme to give citizenship to descendants of Nazi persecution.
 

Falcon1200

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Couldn't disagree more. Imagine, in particular, was horrendous in my opinion

A horrendous song, or just the rendition of it? Either way, I doubt that any of Saturday's efforts, from the winner right through to number 26, will be remembered, played and covered, in 50 days time, never mind 50 years as per John Lennon's song!
 

nw1

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A horrendous song, or just the rendition of it? Either way, I doubt that any of Saturday's efforts, from the winner right through to number 26, will be remembered, played and covered, in 50 days time, never mind 50 years as per John Lennon's song!

Just the rendition, I suspect. (I didn't hear it).
 

DanNCL

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It was obvious on Saturday that the juries of so-called industry experts were totally out of touch with the people of Europe. Had the results been decided by the viewers in the 37 countries, Finland would have won by a landslide and Norway would have been third. Instead the Finns were cheated by tiny cohorts of people with undue influence who nobody knows. Indeed the BBC and other media were priming us for weeks with the prediction that Sweden was likely to win.

It is time for the BBC to use its influence and get jury votes scrapped. When the show visits the various countries, we want to know how the people voted rather than small committees. It adds to the fun if Greece always votes for Cyprus and vice versa. Sadly the late great Sir Terry Wogan got it into his head in his latter years that something sinister and political was going on when, in fact, the patterns were nothing more harmless than emigrants voting for their home countries.

A few people of a "remainer" persuasion also seem to think that many Europeans vote "against" the UK because of Brexit. They fail to appreciate that to get any votes in Eurovision, substantial numbers of people have to think that your song is better than the other 25. People vote "for" songs they like, they do not vote against anybody. Safe acts like Mae Muller simply don't stand out as the best.

Other than that, it was a great week and Liverpool did us proud.

(I went to the first SF and was blown away by the Norwegian entry - so I backed it at 16/1 hoping it would pay for my ticket like in 1998 when I backed Dana International at 7/1 after going to the final dress rehearsal in Birmingham. No such luck. The Liverpool crowd were going mad for Finland.)
It's a difficult one. The role of the juries is to lift songs that are good songs but might be overlooked by the public for being 'safe', ie Mae Muller, and they've clearly failed to do that this year by instead sending their points to entries that were always going to do well with the public vote, ie Sweden and Israel, and ultimately changing who the winner was as a result.

On the other hand one could argue that the juries are essential to lift up the good songs that would otherwise go unappreciated by the public vote ie the 'safe' songs and the ballads, and those that are screwed in the public vote by the running order. One will note that all of the countries that performed before Sweden in 09 got less than 100 points from the public vote, including the Austrian and French entries that had both been expected to do well, and in the case of the Austrian entry was a huge hit with the crowd in the arena too.

Eurovision didn't have the Jury vote for much of the 2000s and the quality difference between Eurovision entries now and then is noticeable. We're getting fewer songs like Ukraine's 2007 entry 'Dancing Lasha Tumbai' which as fun as they are have no meaning to them and the lyrics are utter nonsense, instead we now have more songs with a proper composition to them and lyrics that actually make sense, often whilst still being fun. Even this year's Croatian entry had a message behind it!

There definitely needs to be changes to how the jury vote works at Eurovision but I don't think scrapping them is the right idea. Changing the weighting of the jury vote/public vote so that the public vote is more powerful than the jury vote could be a better option. (And convincing the Swedes not to select Loreen again :lol:)

Those who moan about people voting "against" the UK really frustrate me. Two reasons, firstly we did badly even before the Brexit referendum, and secondly all it shows is that we weren't in that many people's top 10. A song could be the 11th most popular song that year with every other country and still get 'Nul Points', yet a song that was the favourite in one country and the least popular everywhere else would have points. Points alone don't show how popular the song really was.
 

nw1

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Those who moan about people voting "against" the UK really frustrate me. Two reasons, firstly we did badly even before the Brexit referendum, and secondly all it shows is that we weren't in that many people's top 10. A song could be the 11th most popular song that year with every other country and still get 'Nul Points', yet a song that was the favourite in one country and the least popular everywhere else would have points. Points alone don't show how popular the song really was.

The UK doesn't seem to want to get into the "spirit" of Eurovision these days.

Now I don't mind the Mae Muller song, it's pleasant enough, but it isn't "Eurovision-ish" if you know what I mean. It's more like a contemporary chart song than a Eurovision song.

To do well in Eurovision a song needs to be very catchy, maybe a little silly/cheesy perhaps (or, conversely, have a serious message), and have a good performance. Other countries - including faraway Australia, not even in Europe - seem to get into this spirit much more than we do. The UK seems to submit "ordinary contemporary pop songs" year after year after year.

Not sure what changed but the turning point seems to have been around 2003 with the famous "nul points" entry. Before that we did well almost every year. Since then we've barely got into the top 10 and are normally in the bottom 5.

Having said that I do wonder about the effects of political issues. We seem to have done particularly and spectacularly badly in the vast majority of years since the Brexit referendum, and the start of the run of poor performance did pretty much coincide with the Iraq war. Arguably, neither have done much for our reputation in continental Europe. I'm not saying that people deliberately voted against us, but perhaps because of feeling less a part of the European community due to political tensions, the UK just didn't bother with good songs or engaging with the contest after that.
 
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dosxuk

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The UK doesn't seem to want to get into the "spirit" of Eurovision these days.

Now I don't mind the Mae Muller song, it's pleasant enough, but it isn't "Eurovision-ish" if you know what I mean. It's more like a contemporary chart song than a Eurovision song.

Well, so is the winning song - it's higher in the midweek UK charts (#3) than the UK entrant (#7). Most of the winning songs over the last few years have been big selling chart hits. Sam Ryder's song was just as much of a contemporary chart song as Mae Muller's.

To do well in Eurovision a song needs to be very catchy, maybe a little silly/cheesy perhaps (or, conversely, have a serious message), and have a good performance. Other countries - including faraway Australia, not even in Europe - seem to get into this spirit much more than we do. The UK seems to submit "ordinary contemporary pop songs" year after year after year.

Much more important is to be a bit different to what everybody else has entered that year. If you're the only rock band in a line up of indie ballards, the votes will flock to you. If you're the only proper pop song in a night of heavy rock, suddenly people notice you. Sweden fell foul of this last time they won with Loreen - by entering an almost identical song the following year, only for half the entrants to do the same and it just disappeared in the crowd.

Our song this year was so similar to a number of other entrants, backed up with a poor live performance and some significant differences to the radio version, it just blended in. For all the complaints about Loreen's song, it was one of the strongest performances of the night - and even in the arena it was one of the most memorable songs.

Not sure what changed but the turning point seems to have been around 2003 with the famous "nul points" entry. Before that we did well almost every year. Since then we've barely got into the top 10 and are normally in the bottom 5.

By far the biggest change to our luck was when the language restrictions were removed - entries used to have to be performed in one of the official national languages of the competing nation - so all the countries that spoke English tended to perform better as their songs were much more widely understood.

The other big change was the introduction of the semi-finals, and us getting a free pass to the final. Coming through the semi-finals means your song gets seen and voted on twice by an audience - the big 5 countries only get a 60 second clip of their song played before their one-and-only performance. People on Saturday were looking forward to Finland and it's crazyness - they'd seen it before and they'd voted for it before; people were looking forward to see if Loreen would get stuck in her panini maker; but people were only looking forward to Mae Muller because it meant it was the last of the songs.
 

Urobach

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A horrendous song, or just the rendition of it?

The rendition of it. Terrible!

Those who moan about people voting "against" the UK really frustrate me. Two reasons, firstly we did badly even before the Brexit referendum, and secondly all it shows is that we weren't in that many people's top 10. A song could be the 11th most popular song that year with every other country and still get 'Nul Points', yet a song that was the favourite in one country and the least popular everywhere else would have points. Points alone don't show how popular the song really was.

My recollection is a notable turning point where we started languishing near the bottom was 2003's Jemini, which many attributed to the Iraq invasion that happened a few months before. It does have to be said watching back on Youtube though, Jemini really do appear to be off key.

Were the UK and Ireland ever reliable 12 point buddies in the same way Greece/Cyprus etc seemed to be?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Having said that I do wonder about the effects of political issues. We seem to have done particularly and spectacularly badly in the vast majority of years since the Brexit referendum, and the start of the run of poor performance did pretty much coincide with the Iraq war. Arguably, neither have done much for our reputation in continental Europe. I'm not saying that people deliberately voted against us, but perhaps because of feeling less a part of the European community due to political tensions, the UK just didn't bother with good songs or engaging with the contest after that.

It's nothing to do with Brexit. In Eurovision, you can't vote "against" a country you don't like, you can only vote "for" countries you do like.

As I said before, the only way to get any points at all is for substantial numbers of people to consider your song better than the other 25 entries and so vote for it.

In the sixties we had wonderful tuneful songs, my all-time favourite being "Are you sure?" by the Allisons (1961). In recent years, our entries, with one or two exceptions, have descended into dross, the worst being "Even If" by Andy Abraham (2008). Mae Muller's song wasn't that bad - but no way would hordes of people across Europe vote it the best of the 26.
 

yorksrob

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The UK entry this year seemed a bit too much like Radio 2's usual playlist material for my taste. It probably wasn't a "bad" song in the scheme of things, but not much to stand out generally.

Sam's last year had a much more compelling tune, to my mind.
 

JamesT

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The UK entry this year seemed a bit too much like Radio 2's usual playlist material for my taste. It probably wasn't a "bad" song in the scheme of things, but not much to stand out generally.

Sam's last year had a much more compelling tune, to my mind.
The thing that puzzles me, is that I believe essentially the same people were in charge of choosing last year and this year. Did they decide to do something different, or were they using the same process and somehow managed completely opposite outcomes?
 

johnnychips

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I would highly recommend Tim Moore’s Nul Points to those interested in Eurovision, even though it only goes up to 2010. In particular it addresses @Urobach ’s point about Jemini’s performance in 2006 - yes it was off-key, but there were many other reasons.
 

WizCastro197

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Muller’s song sounded good on radio and online, but when she sang it at Eurovision, it sounded like she was singing Karaoke or something, the music was so loud it was drowning out her voice. Unless it’s the other way round and her voice isn’t strong enough.
 

yorksrob

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The thing that puzzles me, is that I believe essentially the same people were in charge of choosing last year and this year. Did they decide to do something different, or were they using the same process and somehow managed completely opposite outcomes?

I think the industry people like to go with what they feel is "current", whereas to do well at Eurovision, you need a song which is good but which also stands out.
 

nw1

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I think the industry people like to go with what they feel is "current", whereas to do well at Eurovision, you need a song which is good but which also stands out.

That's the thing about the whole UK approach. They seem to go for "average contemporary pop" rather than, shall we say, "Eurovision". It's got to be catchy (or, sometimes, very serious) and it has to have a good performance.

They make the same mistake time and time again - I can't believe that they genuinely don't know the problem. The UK, after all, arguably led the world in pop music from the 60s to the 90s. It almost seems as if the UK organising committee isn't that interested in Eurovision, and I've speculated about possible reasons above though this is just speculation. I think the UK population is, though - why would there be threads like this otherwise?

Elsewhere people have commented on the subject matter of the Mae Muller song, which is about a broken relationship and what she was thinking of doing to "get back" - perhaps not ideal for Eurovision where the songs are (either) light-hearted (or) have a serious message about world issues.

It's nothing to do with Brexit. In Eurovision, you can't vote "against" a country you don't like, you can only vote "for" countries you do like.
I did explicitly state that I didn't think anyone was voting "against us". Rather, I was questioning whether political issues were behind the UK seemingly not bothering with it ,and repeatedly submitting mediocre entries, most years from the Iraq war onwards.

Muller’s song sounded good on radio and online, but when she sang it at Eurovision, it sounded like she was singing Karaoke or something, the music was so loud it was drowning out her voice. Unless it’s the other way round and her voice isn’t strong enough.

I also found the visuals weren't great. They had graphics of faces and so on in the background, which meant you can't really see her perform properly, and there were certainly no outlandish visuals of the sort some other countries used.
 
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Cloud Strife

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I also found the visuals weren't great.

The visuals, or staging as it's known in Eurovision speak, are incredibly important. The Polish song was a prime example of just dreadful staging, including that hologram that was widely mocked.
 

najaB

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Elsewhere people have commented on the subject matter of the Mae Muller song, which is about a broken relationship and what she was thinking of doing to "get back" - perhaps not ideal for Eurovision where the songs are (either) light-hearted (or) have a serious message about world issues.
There was an article (I think on the BBC website) that pointed out that the particular way that the voting system works means that your entry either needs to be unique, or needs to be way better than any other similar entry. If you're fifth or sixth on everyone's list then you've no chance whatsoever.

The issue that the UK entry had this year is that, despite being an objectively good song, it was up against three other similar songs that were better. Germany fared even worse in this regard - their song was good, but Australia and Norway had better rock/metal type entries. Which meant that they were behind the best pop songs (Sweden and Israel), the best WTF? song (Austria), the best rave song (Finland) and two other similar songs - which put them in the "one or two points at best" category.
 

WizCastro197

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I also found the visuals weren't great. They had graphics of faces and so on in the background, which meant you can't really see her perform properly, and there were certainly no outlandish visuals of the sort some other countries used.
I did think she should've been in pink and her background dancers in black so she would stand out, so swap their outfits round.
 

Old Yard Dog

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The entries from Sweden, Finland, UK and Norway have all shot straight into the UK singles top 10, however that is calculated these days. Four at once is an all-time record.
 

najaB

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The entries from Sweden, Finland, UK and Norway have all shot straight into the UK singles top 10, however that is calculated these days.
I imagine it's largely (if not almost completely) based on streaming figures.
 

nw1

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The entries from Sweden, Finland, UK and Norway have all shot straight into the UK singles top 10, however that is calculated these days. Four at once is an all-time record.

This is unusual, if I remember from the past only the most notable entries would enter the top 10. Even notable winners such as Dana International missed the top 10 (just), and many UK entries missed the top 40, let alone the top 10 - even if they did well in the actual contest.

I imagine it's largely (if not almost completely) based on streaming figures.

Going OT but one thing I've noticed in recent years is how static the charts seem to be (with odd exceptions like this) - the same old songs seem to hang around for months and months. One might think streaming would make it faster moving with a higher turnover but evidently not.

It's telling that the song which had the 3rd-longest run at number one (behind Bryan Adams and Wet Wet Wet) is something I've never even heard of!

In some ways (due to the slow-moving nature of the charts) I wonder why they even bother with a top 40 anymore (and I say this as someone who followed the charts until I was about 35) but maybe I am just getting old.
 
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johnnychips

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The entries from Sweden, Finland, UK and Norway have all shot straight into the UK singles top 10, however that is calculated these days. Four at once is an all-time record.
My age, probably, but when I was younger, to buy a single or LP (or even a CD) was a relatively ‘big’ decision, after considering many alternatives. How much does it cost to stream one track?
 

JamesT

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My age, probably, but when I was younger, to buy a single or LP (or even a CD) was a relatively ‘big’ decision, after considering many alternatives. How much does it cost to stream one track?
If you’re ‘streaming’, that’s generally in the context of a subscription to something like Spotify where you pay monthly and can play as much as you like. £10/month seems fairly common. The streamer will pay a fraction of a penny every time a song is played.
The other mode is ‘downloads’, where you may pay something like 99p and get an mp3 of a track which you can play as many times as you like with no further payment. Which is a model much closer to traditional record sales.
 
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