Euston during demolition

[mr_jrt]

Only Met services via the local lines are able to access the Watford Branch from Harrow. Thus all Met services to Watford from London run via the locals. All Chiltern services run via the Met Main lines.

Significantly simplified diagram of the Metropolitan between Harrow and Rickmansworth:

As Metrailway says, there's no pointwork for the move you're suggesting. Has there ever been a fast service from Watford though I wonder?

Anyway, for future reference I can heartily recommend carto.metro

 

[D365]

Do we even have a design for the new Euston yet?

I hope for a giant single span arch using modern materials to do what the Trainshed designers of the Victorian era wanted to do but couldn't.

Broad engineering layout for surface platforms, yes.

We're currently sat at RIBA B overall and possibly RIBA C for the surface platforms, and either B or C for Crossrail Platforms, so we're nowhere near detailed design for anything yet, not even touched RIBA B for the LUL platforms. No-one has even outlined any works to be carried out for the Northern and Vic Lines, let allone if we'll see a connection to Euston Square.

Crossrail platforms, would you be referring to Crossrail 2? In general I hope that the Euston Arch will be rebuilt and the station returned to its former glory. Better connections to Euston Square and St Pancras/King's Cross are always welcome.

On a similar note, at what stage is planning for Old Oak Common? In particular interest to me, layout, a running line between GWML Relief and Watford DC/WCML Slow (Crossrail 345 allows the retro-fit of 750V DC pickup), as well as passenger interchange with Willesden Junction. Hopefully these latest station projects will be well thought-out.

Euston kept going during the last rebuild with some services going to St.P. Still possible now... Remember the Manchester Pullman?

Project Rio? Don't suppose something along those lines (excuse that pun ;L) could be pulled off again, nor would it need to be..?

 

[Nym]

Yes, I'm refering to Crossrail 2.
And I have been through several layout options and getting to the DCs south of Willesden Junction just doesn't work in so many ways, the way to access the DCs I've found is to join just south of Wembley Central, and then leave onto the Chiltern Lines / Met Fasts.

 

[Kettledrum]

Reminds me St Pancras was used in the 50s when Euston was being rebuilt,I traveled on the 2200 from Rhyl & arrived at St Pancras about 0400,I think it was
1953/54

With the original St Pancras trainshed, now used for Eurostar, and the Midland Mainline trains crammed into just 4 platforms to the North and West of the trainshed, there is no longer any capacity for any of the Euston trains to be diverted to St Pancras.

These 4 platforms are already operating at full capacity and the other St Pancras platforms can not be easily accessed from this direction.

 

[Nym]

With the original St Pancras trainshed, now used for Eurostar, and the Midland Mainline trains crammed into just 4 platforms to the North and West of the trainshed, there is no longer any capacity for any of the Euston trains to be diverted to St Pancras.

These 4 platforms are already operating at full capacity and the other St Pancras platforms can not be easily accessed from this direction.

You mean the E* and SE-HS platforms can't be accessed via Primrose Hill and the NLL via Camden Town, cos I think they can... (Although the SE-HS ones are a challenge, one of the E* platforms would be easy.)

 

[ainsworth74]

Wouldn't signalling be an issue even if there is access? I'm sure I've read somewhere or other that continental style signalling is used on the E* and domestic HS platforms.

 

[Nym]

Wouldn't signalling be an issue even if there is access? I'm sure I've read somewhere or other that continental style signalling is used on the E* and domestic HS platforms.

It would indeed be an issue, as the E* and SE-HS platforms are signalled with KVB with a handover around the NLL end IIRC. Still, KVB isn't exactly difficult to fit, although I get the feeling that NLL services will simply end up being pushed throgh to Straford or Camden.

 

[barrykas]

If memory serves from the testing at St Pancras in the run up to opening, the Eurostar platforms (and HS1 Domestic for that matter) have conventional colour light signalling controlled from Ashford, in addition to KVB.

 

[Class377/5]

You mean the E* and SE-HS platforms can't be accessed via Primrose Hill and the NLL via Camden Town, cos I think they can... (Although the SE-HS ones are a challenge, one of the E* platforms would be easy.)

Eurostar platforms are out of bounds as its a control area. You need a passport to access the Eurostar platforms unless your Eurostar staff. You cannot put domestic trains in there.

 

[Nym]

Eurostar platforms are out of bounds as its a control area. You need a passport to access the Eurostar platforms unless your Eurostar staff. You cannot put domestic trains in there.

Except for during the olympics when they temporaraly handed over one of the platforms to domestic services?

 

[HSTEd]

You just mount up barriers around the platform entrances and between that platform and the others and then open up the barriers between the domestic station and that particular platform.

As to the whole idea of extending CrossRail... does this not turn it into something a bit like Superlink but less extreme?

Journey time from Tring to Paddington would likely end up comparable to Amersham to Baker Street, maybe a little longer.
But I think Milton Keynes is definitely pushing it.
You could always run a turn-up-and-ride service as far out as Tring but that would still not only be 2tph taken out of Euston without the further extensions.

If you go for longer distance interiors you then reduce the suitability of the stock for the Central Core.

 

[Class377/5]

Except for during the olympics when they temporaraly handed over one of the platforms to domestic services?

When? Because I never saw it. I'd like see proof of it please if there is any.

You just mount up barriers around the platform entrances and between that platform and the others and then open up the barriers between the domestic station and that particular platform.

You'd need to rebuild the entrance on ground level as well.

 

[Nym]

When you're next there, take a careful look at the floor around Platform 10.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

With a short extension of the wires and a bit of cosmetic work couldn't Addison Road be used for the Scottish Sleepers ?

 

[RobShipway]

With a short extension of the wires and a bit of cosmetic work couldn't Addison Road be used for the Scottish Sleepers ?

I thought the Scottish Sleepers would be going into Waterloo into one of the old Eurostar platforms?

For the other services I can see them going into Marylebone or Paddington where there is space, but with Crossrail at Paddington it might have to be Marylebone.

 

[tbtc]

You just mount up barriers around the platform entrances and between that platform and the others and then open up the barriers between the domestic station and that particular platform.

As to the whole idea of extending CrossRail... does this not turn it into something a bit like Superlink but less extreme?

Journey time from Tring to Paddington would likely end up comparable to Amersham to Baker Street, maybe a little longer.
But I think Milton Keynes is definitely pushing it.
You could always run a turn-up-and-ride service as far out as Tring but that would still not only be 2tph taken out of Euston without the further extensions.

If you go for longer distance interiors you then reduce the suitability of the stock for the Central Core.

Crossrail is going to be more like an Underground service (in terms of service pattern/ lack of complicated branches/ toiletless trains/ plenty of standing space) than another Thameslink, so I think we need to forget any ambitions for connecting longer distance places through the Crossrail core.

As for Euston, dunno about renovation - there's currently a departure roughly every three minutes so you'd need to take out more than just the Watford stoppers to free up sufficient space to redevelop the station.

 

[Nym]

The closest model for Crossrail I can think of is the Central Line or Met Line, where Paddington would be paralelling Baker Street and Uxbridge & via Moor Park being the two branches.

But I can see space for different stopping patterns provided that each 'pattern' is provided with a minimum of 4tph and shown as a 'line on the diagram' with standard stopping patterns. (Like the Met used to be, Uxbridges all stations, Watford Semi and Ammershams Fast) say, something like.

4tph Reading
4tph Maidenhead
4tph West Drayton
4tph Heathrow

4tph High Wycome
4tph Tring (2tph could stop short at Watford Junction)

 

[Deerfold]

The closest model for Crossrail I can think of is the Central Line or Met Line, where Paddington would be paralelling Baker Street and Uxbridge & via Moor Park being the two branches.

But I can see space for different stopping patterns provided that each 'pattern' is provided with a minimum of 4tph and shown as a 'line on the diagram' with standard stopping patterns. (Like the Met used to be, Uxbridges all stations, Watford Semi and Ammershams Fast) say, something like.

4tph Reading
4tph Maidenhead
4tph West Drayton
4tph Heathrow

4tph High Wycome
4tph Tring (2tph could stop short at Watford Junction)

That'd need an awful lot more trains ordering than current plans suggest (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/benefits/a-world-class-new-railway/timetabling).

As well as the new destinations of High Wycome and Tring you've also added 4 tph Paddington - Reading and 2 tph Paddington - West Drayton.

 

[Nym]

And...? Isn't exactly difficult to order more of something that's brand new, especially when it means additional EMUs elsewhere.

The country will need more EMUs so why not displace them from the WCML and/or Chiltern Mainline (DMUs) and build new ones for a more critical project, ya know, the whole point of stock cascades.

 

[HSTEd]

Crossrail is going to be more like an Underground service (in terms of service pattern/ lack of complicated branches/ toiletless trains/ plenty of standing space) than another Thameslink, so I think we need to forget any ambitions for connecting longer distance places through the Crossrail core.

Tring would be similar journey time to what people already use underground standard stock for on the Met.
Journey time is the important thing, not distance from London, which is also largely similar in this case.

 

[swt_passenger]

And...? Isn't exactly difficult to order more of something that's brand new, especially when it means additional EMUs elsewhere.

The country will need more EMUs so why not displace them from the WCML and/or Chiltern Mainline (DMUs) and build new ones for a more critical project, ya know, the whole point of stock cascades.

As we know, the London and SE RUS final version already proposes using the full 24 tph of Crossrail to western destinations, however their proposed solution has:

10 tph to Heathrow (includes Hex paths)
6 tph to the GWML (as now)
8 tph to the WCML (nothing to Chiltern)

So the principle of serving more destinations is already published (and that implies a tacit additional order for whatever necessary rolling stock follows from that decision). It's really only the detail of how to achieve the extra links to the WCML slows that needs to be addressed over the intervening period...

 

[AndyLandy]

I for one hope the only concrete plans they are making involve getting rid of it!

Oh, I dunno. I personally think they should make the new Euston just as much an awful concrete monstrosity as the current one. That way, when we need to remodel it again in 50-60 years time, nobody will mind if we tear the whole place down again.

If you build it all shiny and nice, people will get upset if you later want to rebuild it. The problem is exacerbated if English Heritage decide it's shiny and nice and decide to list it.

So, largely tongue-in-cheek, but it's a fair point, I feel. I reckon remodelling Euston is likely to be much easier than Kings Cross was.

 

[mister-sparky]

I thought the Scottish Sleepers would be going into Waterloo into one of the old Eurostar platforms?

For the other services I can see them going into Marylebone or Paddington where there is space, but with Crossrail at Paddington it might have to be Marylebone.

How? There are no wired into Marylebone. And that's near full capacity anyways I think, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Deerfold]

And...? Isn't exactly difficult to order more of something that's brand new, especially when it means additional EMUs elsewhere.

The country will need more EMUs so why not displace them from the WCML and/or Chiltern Mainline (DMUs) and build new ones for a more critical project, ya know, the whole point of stock cascades.

It might not be difficult, but I'd be very surprised if it happened - I'd be very surprised if they suddenly decided Maidenhead needed double the Crossrail service that's been specified so far (which has already doubled from the oringinal estimate) and can't see many people from Reading wanting to catch an all-stops train into London (and it's been made clear so far that they don't envisage any Crossrail services skipping stops).

 

[Zoe]

and it's been made clear so far that they don't envisage any Crossrail services skipping stops).

According to the Crossrail website, there will be skip stop services west of Paddington.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ shows 6 tph west of Paddington off peak but only Ealing Broadway, Southall and Hayes & Harlington having all of these services call. Acton Main Line and West Ealing have 4 tph and Hanwell has 2 tph. West of Hayes 4 tph continues to Heathrow and 2 tph to Maidenhead.

 

[Deerfold]

According to the Crossrail website, there will be skip stop services west of Paddington.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ shows 6 tph west of Paddington off peak but only Ealing Broadway, Southall and Hayes & Harlington having all of these services call. Acton Main Line and West Ealing have 4 tph and Hanwell has 2 tph. West of Hayes 4 tph continues to Heathrow and 2 tph to Maidenhead.

Interesting - that semes to have changed quite a lot from when I last looked.

Looks like my old local station at Taplow is going to see a bit of a change! When I lived there it was 1tph off-peak, 2 tph peak, no service Sundays - since then the off-peak servicve has increased to 2 tph. If Crossrail achieve their aim of providing a 7-day service there'll be 6 trains an hour in each direction stopping, 4 of them Crossrail and 2 GW and at least 4tph on a Sunday. I suspect that might stimulate demand a bit!

 

[Zoe]

Looks like my old local station at Taplow is going to see a bit of a change! When I lived there it was 1tph off-peak, 2 tph peak, no service Sundays - since then the off-peak servicve has increased to 2 tph. If Crossrail achieve their aim of providing a 7-day service there'll be 6 trains an hour in each direction stopping, 4 of them Crossrail and 2 GW and at least 4tph on a Sunday. I suspect that might stimulate demand a bit!

The 4 tph Crossrail is only at peak times though. Off peak it says 2 tph Crossrail. The service table doesn't show any GW trains serving Taplow but the text above does refer to a 2 tph all stations Reading to Slough service calling at all stations although it is not clear if this will be all day or only at peak times.

 

[oversteer]

I can also see Crossrail taking a significant amount of the suburban strain with additional rolling stock ordered, running as far as Milton Keynes and possibly Northampton

Tangentally off-topic, has the plan for WCML slows to go onto Crossrail been taken forward at all (other than in the RUS document?)

 

[Deerfold]

The 4 tph Crossrail is only at peak times though. Off peak it says 2 tph Crossrail. The service table doesn't show any GW trains serving Taplow but the text above does refer to a 2 tph all stations Reading to Slough service calling at all stations although it is not clear if this will be all day or only at peak times.

Yes, I'd read that and meant to put 2 tph on a Sunday! I was using the text above to count up to the 6tph peak service. Still quite an increase in service as initial Crossrail documentation suggested that all local services east of Maidenhead woule be replaced with a 2tph Crossrail service.

 

[Zoe]

Yes, I'd read that and meant to put 2 tph on a Sunday! I was using the text above to count up to the 6tph peak service. Still quite an increase in service as initial Crossrail documentation suggested that all local services east of Maidenhead woule be replaced with a 2tph Crossrail service.

It would be interesting to know which hours will be peak hours for Crossrail. It looks like West Drayton will be a loser off peak with a reduction from the current 4 tph GW to 2 tph Crossrail and no GW service although it will be served by 6 tph at peak times.