Evening lighting in carriages

[alexl92]

Has the idea of lower level lighting on board trains during hours of darkness ever been tried in the UK?

As an example, I travelled back from London to Leeds with VTEC one evening in August. Being a later train, I'd have loved the option to sit in a carriage that was only half-lit so that I could have closed my eyes and had a snooze more easily - the mk4s are nicely lit imho but when it's dark outside they can feel quite bright.

I realise there are safety considerations to take into account, and it would probably only work on longer trains where certain carriages could be designated as such, but could it work at all? Or is it a daft idea with limited appeal?

 

[Mugby]

I seem to remember, at one time, HST carriages had a dimmer switch in the vestibule near the sliding door, which anyone could apparently use.

 

[mmh]

Has the idea of lower level lighting on board trains during hours of darkness ever been tried in the UK?

As an example, I travelled back from London to Leeds with VTEC one evening in August. Being a later train, I'd have loved the option to sit in a carriage that was only half-lit so that I could have closed my eyes and had a snooze more easily - the mk4s are nicely lit imho but when it's dark outside they can feel quite bright.

I realise there are safety considerations to take into account, and it would probably only work on longer trains where certain carriages could be designated as such, but could it work at all? Or is it a daft idea with limited appeal?

Yes, Mark 3 carriages (or possibly later Mark 2's) had light control plates at the vestibule ends. They looked like a metal version of a domestic light switch plate, I think marked with something like "DAY / NIGHT". I can't remember if they were just switches or needed a carriage key or something similar. A quick search on Google's found nothing about them

 

[theageofthetra]

Completely agree- the awful LED replacements going into some units are just too bright. Its a nightmare for my other half who had retinal surgery and has to wear dark glasses at night on some trains.

 

[185]

185s can dim to an excellent night level. But it's very frowned upon due to H&S err.. people.

1 press of the saloon lighting button on the dash knocks out 70% of lights, but keeps on the two toilets and 1 of all door vestibule lights.

*not suggesting anyone does this btw, good for the passengers but they'll likely get stitched.

 

[Bedpan]

Very much agree, not only for snoozing but also for looking out of the window. My recollection of the old days, with dimmer lights and unsmoked glass, was that you could look out of the window, at least in suburban areas. Nowadays I sometimes find it hard to see what stations the train is passing through - or even stopped at if the PIS isn't working.

 

[Wivenswold]

Completely agree with comments about having lower lighting at night. It doesn't have to be an H&S issue if you have brighter vestibules and low-level directional lighting. I've seen photos of a fairly recent EMU that was fitted out in this way.

Not only would it make sleeping easier but those staying awake might finally be able to watch the world going by. As anyone from the countryside will know, you'll be amazed how much you can see in the dark once the eyes adjust.

 

[superalbs]

The Night Riviera Seated coaches (pre-refurb anyway) have some nice lighting. Good enough to see around the carriage, but also dim enough to feel relaxing.

I've only had a quick walkthrough on the newly-refurbished set, but it seems quite a bit brighter from what I can remember.

 

[goblinuser]

It would be nice and it's something I've always wanted, but deep down know that it is in the category of "use your own car instead" if you want that level of personal control. Same goes for ventilation options, who you're sitting next to, and how loud the kid a few rows away is screaming. Joys of public transport!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

When travelling on a late night / early morning TPE from Manchester to Leeds the guard announced he would be dimming the lights.

It as a non stop to Leeds.

Everyone slept was a really great idea.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Standard practice for ours to go out on dim. Out train prep crew get headaches when left on bright; which says it all !
Bring back tungsten bulbs!

 

[frodshamfella]

Great idea, years ago I used to travel regularly over weekends between Euston and Runcorn, travelling home on a Sunday evening I would have liked to snooze but too bright. That was in the BR days.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes, Mark 3 carriages (or possibly later Mark 2's) had light control plates at the vestibule ends. They looked like a metal version of a domestic light switch plate, I think marked with something like "DAY / NIGHT". I can't remember if they were just switches or needed a carriage key or something similar. A quick search on Google's found nothing about them

I'm sure most loco hauled mk1 compartment stock had a dim/bright switch in both classes located above the sliding entrance door also.

 

[yorksrob]

HST's still have a dimmer setting - not that our TOC's choose to use them. They prefer the German POW camp searchlight style of ambient lighting in my experience. I wonder if these new trains will have a dimmer switch ?

 

[matt_world2004]

I was on a 165 once that had no lighting in a passenger service carriage just a pis does that countm

 

[Spankthemonkey]

When travelling on a late night / early morning TPE from Manchester to Leeds the guard announced he would be dimming the lights.

It as a non stop to Leeds.

Everyone slept was a really great idea.

There-in lies an issue, if it wasn't non-stop people on late night ones would be missing their stops due to dropping off. Quiet services could also become a bit of a rapist's paradise in the dark.

 

[yorksrob]

I think there's a substantial difference between subdued and non-existant lighting when it comes to personal safety. Indeed, most commercial establishments have subdued lighting to some extent without becoming a 'rapist's paradise'.

 

[randompixel]

Obviously you don't have to go as far as this, but I think they way Virgin Atlantic are integrating lighting as a part of the journey for their flights is very interesting and a lot could be learnt from it.

Are the train companies subconsciously telling us that their journeys are utilitarian and functional just through the atmosphere of the carriage when they're charging a premium price for travelling?

https://viewportstudio.co.uk/projects/virgin-atlantic-787-upper-class-and-premium-economy/

 

[AM9]

HST's still have a dimmer setting - not that our TOC's choose to use them. They prefer the German POW camp searchlight style of ambient lighting in my experience. I wonder if these new trains will have a dimmer switch ?

Providing controls for the passenger to alter the environment to suit their preferences which at the same time affects everybody else is probably getting less likely. Aside from providing an environment that meets legal obligations for health and safety, the opportunity for conflict amongst passengers which any travelling staff ultimately have to deal with is something that TOCs would rather avoid on what is after all public transport.
For every person who wants to sleep or look at the night scene outside, there is another who wants to read a book/newspaper etc.. Not everybody can/wants/has time to sleep on the move so they should also be able to pass the time in other ways. To perform these perfectly normal visual activities an expectation of at least 500 lux* at seat locations, is not unreasonable.


* 500 lux is normal for general office activities including reading

 

[yorksrob]

Providing controls for the passenger to alter the environment to suit their preferences which at the same time affects everybody else is probably getting less likely. Aside from providing an environment that meets legal obligations for health and safety, the opportunity for conflict amongst passengers which any travelling staff ultimately have to deal with is something that TOCs would rather avoid on what is after all public transport.
For every person who wants to sleep or look at the night scene outside, there is another who wants to read a book/newspaper etc.. Not everybody can/wants/has time to sleep on the move so they should also be able to pass the time in other ways. To perform these perfectly normal visual activities an expectation of at least 500 lux* at seat locations, is not unreasonable.


* 500 lux is normal for general office activities including reading

Light, like sound is one of those things which is easy to generate but difficult to block.

I think the answer is to have subdued ambient lighting in the overall carriage whilst providing individual reading lamps for the minority who wish to engage in office activities at ten at night. This is something that the Southern Region did well at in it's Express stock during the late 1950's/early1960's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has the idea of lower level lighting on board trains during hours of darkness ever been tried in the UK?

Perhaps not intentional, but some of us really like the subdued Pendolino lighting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, Mark 3 carriages (or possibly later Mark 2's) had light control plates at the vestibule ends. They looked like a metal version of a domestic light switch plate, I think marked with something like "DAY / NIGHT". I can't remember if they were just switches or needed a carriage key or something similar. A quick search on Google's found nothing about them

They just had a switch, I recall it turned off every third tube (on the GWR refurb it meant only half were on, which was much better than the excessive light levels with all on). Some refurbs turned it into a carriage key.

 

[gallafent]

They just had a switch, I recall it turned off every third tube (on the GWR refurb it meant only half were on, which was much better than the excessive light levels with all on). Some refurbs turned it into a carriage key.

That matches my memory too, with the original Mk3 transverse fluorescent tube config (or was it that it left only every third tube on?) — and now I can't even remember the last time I travelled in a GWR HST which was in “bright” mode with all tubes lit (in standard class) — even with half switched on (“dim”) they are way too bright!

Cabin lighting much dimmer than that, with reading lamps, would indeed be far more pleasant.

In an office I worked in years ago we removed the tubes from all the ceiling luminaires in the suspended ceiling of the area my team worked in, using instead floorstanding uplighters and desk lamps. It made for a far more pleasant working environment … so it's not just trains.

Anyway, back to trains, better still is seated compartments with main lights that could be switched to bright / dim / off (or was it even just on / off) that I remember from Corail (probably rebranded Téoz by the time I travelled, actually) stock in France, travelling from Paris to Toulouse. Again, reading lamps make up the difference, or if all passengers in the compartment preferred, just switch the lights off and look out of the window! I vaguely remember being in a first class compartment in a Mk2D on the Clansman when really quite little in the 1980s … can't remember what lighting options it had, but do remember enjoying it a lot … but I digress.

Those were the days, mutter grumble etc.

 

[tsr]

377s have a "Dim lights" button on the saloon panels, as well as a couple of options on the Mitrac TMS, as befitting a multi-purpose class of train which can do some fairly long journeys into the evening - and nearly all seats also have decent reading lights. However, instead of dimming the lights , all the saloon button actually does is knock some lights out in the unit, and like a number of classes of Bombardier units, variable numbers of lights being extinguished can also indicate certain types of train fault. There is also no easy way to tell if it's a fault or if the Dim lights option has been selected somewhere on the train. In any case, the overhead lighting ambience is presently (pre-LED upgrade) quite nice. All this combined, as well as fragile OBS traction training nowadays, means the option is little-used, which is a shame, really!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There-in lies an issue, if it wasn't non-stop people on late night ones would be missing their stops due to dropping off. Quiet services could also become a bit of a rapist's paradise in the dark.

Is there a problem with sexual offences on aircraft, on which lights are turned off overnight as a matter of course? Coaches?

 

[northwichcat]

Completely agree- the awful LED replacements going into some units are just too bright. Its a nightmare for my other half who had retinal surgery and has to wear dark glasses at night on some trains.

Not far from me one pelican crossing had it's lights replaced by the new LED type. It was soon changed to a puffin crossing due to the problems caused by flashing amber LED lights at night.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the answer is to have subdued ambient lighting in the overall carriage whilst providing individual reading lamps for the minority who wish to engage in office activities at ten at night. This is something that the Southern Region did well at in it's Express stock during the late 1950's/early1960's.

Yes, I agree. Low ambient lighting with personal reading lamps in the luggage rack like Pendolinos.

 

[DelW]

Standard practice for ours to go out on dim. Out train prep crew get headaches when left on bright; which says it all !
Bring back tungsten bulbs!

A few years ago I spent an evening riding on the Severn Valley during one of their all-night autumn galas. I can't remember which coach sets I rode in, but there was a lovely soft atmospheric light both on the trains and at stations. The harsh glaring fluorescents back on the main line railway were horrible by comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That matches my memory too, with the original Mk3 transverse fluorescent tube config (or was it that it left only every third tube on?) — and now I can't even remember the last time I travelled in a GWR HST which was in “bright” mode with all tubes lit (in standard class) — even with half switched on (“dim”) they are way too bright!

I'm not sure they are that *bright* in dim mode. They are just an extremely unpleasant, very high colour temperature which is a bluish colour.

Normally, "daylight" lighting is considered to be roughly the same as sunlight on a cloudy day. From experience, a cloudy day is much warmer a light colour than these. That colour is only generally used in settings where precise colour differentiation is needed, not a setting where it's supposed to be relaxing.

An utterly hideous piece of design, which, when coupled with the blue/purple interior, makes what is a very nice interior otherwise feel horribly cold.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember travelling back in the age of steam when the lights in compartment stock could be turned on or off within individual compartments.