Evening Returns

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Was at Wigan Wallgate on Saturday and couldnt find the Cheap evening return on the ticket machine i was searching at 7:20pm baring in mind there was no other way of me getting a ticket the wigan g4s/norhern guys where absent what do i do in this scenario as g4s at Victoria tried to charge me Full fare when i arrived in Manchester after 8pm we argued with them and they charged us the CDR's but what is the scenario here.
 
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island

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You should properly buy some sort of ticket and part-exchange it for the ticket you want, although in practice you could probably have got it from the guard.
 

323235

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Part Exchange doesn't work in this part of the world unless you want to end up out of pocket and messing around writing to Customer Relations for a refund.

Much easier to just have a word with the guard before boarding.

Northern's Parkeon machines don't sell Evening Return's yet but they are I believe working on it.

G4S would almost certainly not give out refunds and I suspect the ticket office wouldn't be too keen doing so either.

It was hard enough for me exchanging a Day tripper Exchange voucher at Birmingham Moor Street because the guy had never done it before and was worried about his till being down.
 
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M60lad

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Bit difficult to get a ticket from the booking office at Wigan Wallgate at the moment as its still shut for rebuilding/refurbishment hence why the original poster couldnt get a ticket at the time he said, and there's no point in saying that he could have probably got it from across the road at Wigan Northwestern either as I believe the booking office at Northwestern such sometime after 19:00 these days
 

yorkie

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If there are no facilities to buy the ticket you require, you may usually buy on board.

Some TOCs enforce the NRCoC to the letter, ie that you should first purchase a ticket that allows some of your journey to be made, and exchange this for the correct ticket on board (or at your destination, as appropriate).#

It is worth asking Northern what their policy is as I do not know the answer to that. Please let us know their response.
 

142094

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Next time you get on the train in the same situation at Wallgate sit near to the back or go and find the conductor, explain the situation that the ticket machines did not give the full range of tickets and ask to buy the Evening Return.
 

telstarbox

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Bit difficult to get a ticket from the booking office at Wigan Wallgate at the moment as its still shut for rebuilding/refurbishment hence why the original poster couldnt get a ticket at the time he said, and there's no point in saying that he could have probably got it from across the road at Wigan Northwestern either as I believe the booking office at Northwestern such sometime after 19:00 these days

And in any case they are separate stations (despite their close proximity) and there is no requirement for passengers to leave their origin station to find a ticket machine.
 

island

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Bit difficult to get a ticket from the booking office at Wigan Wallgate at the moment as its still shut for rebuilding/refurbishment hence why the original poster couldnt get a ticket at the time he said, and there's no point in saying that he could have probably got it from across the road at Wigan Northwestern either as I believe the booking office at Northwestern such sometime after 19:00 these days

Virgin TVMs do sell evening returns though. But as mentioned above there is no obligation to go to another station, even if it's only a minute's walk away.
 

34D

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and they charged us the CDR's but what is the scenario here.

In that case, you need to write to Northern and request:

-a refund of the amount you have overpaid by

-a compensatory gesture for your inconvenience on the evening and afterwards

-details of when the TVM at Wallgate will be programmed to sell the evening ticket

-details of whether you followed the correct procedure (ie buying at the first available opportunity) or whether in future you should do something different

-confirmation that staff at Picc will be retrained in the procedure for when they are the first available opportunity to purchase the full range of tickets, and a date by when this training will be carried out by.
 

aformeruser

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Part Exchange doesn't work in this part of the world unless you want to end up out of pocket and messing around writing to Customer Relations for a refund.

In this instance you could in theory purchase a Wigan to Hindley off-peak day return and excess it to a Wigan to Manchester CTLZ evening return. However, if you want the next station that obviously doesn't work as there isn't a cheaper option available on the ticket machine. Also, I'm not sure what the staff response would be if you showed a Hindley ticket after the train has left Hindley.

Northern's Parkeon machines don't sell Evening Return's yet but they are I believe working on it.

Mark Barker said:
Date: 1st December 2011
Duo and Cheap Evening Return
We are very aware that the TVMs do not sell these tickets, this is caused by the way the ticket is set up in the industry systems that the TVM uses for its data set. We are working on changing the way the data is programmed and will be in a position to introduce Duo and Cheap Evening Returns onto the TVMs in the New Year.
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2011/11/28/northerns-new-parkeon-ticket-vending-machines/

As it's now July someone might want to ask Northern for an update on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In that case, you need to write to Northern and request:

-a refund of the amount you have overpaid by

-a compensatory gesture for your inconvenience on the evening and afterwards

Do stress the word 'refund' and maybe repeat it in your closing sentence. Northern's customer relations frequently seem to gloss over letters and send out vouchers for a free day's travel on Northern services even when the passenger is entitled to a refund.

-confirmation that staff at Picc will be retrained in the procedure for when they are the first available opportunity to purchase the full range of tickets, and a date by when this training will be carried out by.

Stonesourscotty actually mentioned Manchester Victoria but as both Victoria and Piccadilly have G4S contracted staff on revenue duties I imagine the training issue affects both stations.

I'd suggest maybe also mentioning making sure revenue staff are fully aware of when ticket offices are closed for refurbishment.
 
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34D

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In this instance you could in theory purchase a Wigan to Hindley off-peak day return and excess it to a Wigan to Manchester CTLZ evening return. However, if you want the next station that obviously doesn't work as there isn't a cheaper option available on the ticket machine. Also, I'm not sure what the staff response would be if you showed a Hindley ticket after the train has left Hindley.

I see a disconnect between two parts of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

NRCOC 3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

NRCOC 18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey.

Any comments anyone? Just to add that (in my opinion) NRCOC 3 only applies where a partial range is available, not no range at all (NRCOC 2 caters for this).
 

table38

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A similar situation exists at Stalybridge.

If I get the 21:46 into Manchester, I'm well beyond the 9pm journey cutoff for a Cheap Evening Return at £1.55 (which the TVM would have sold me an hour earlier for the 20:46), but the cheapest ticket then is an Evening Ranger at £2.30 which the TVM won't sell.

The ticket office is closed, and after many arguments with on-board staff and G4S at Piccadilly, I've resorted to taking the least path of resistance and buying a £3.10 off-peak return from the TVM.
 

323235

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This seems to be completely at odds with Northern services out of Piccadilly where I have seen guards on many occasions selling Evening Returns and Evening Rangers to passengers after the ticket office has closed.

Perhaps it would be worth contacting Transpennine Express asking what there official advise is for a situation when you cannot buy the correct ticket before boarding at Stalybridge and asking them why staff are refusing to sell Evening Rangers on board when the ticket office is closed?

What exactly is the guards and G4S's arguement to the ticket office being closed and the machine not offering the cheapest ticket?

Do you ever apply for a refund for the amount you are overpaying?
 
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table38

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When I have trried to buy an Evening Ranger from a TPX Guard, I'm usually told something along the lines of "we can't sell them on the train" or "you need to buy them in advance" etc.

This approach is generally supported by posters such as this one at Stalybridge and the new ones at Piccadilly (attached).

If you do board one of our trains without a valid ticket, at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, then you will be charged the Full Open Single or Return fare for your journey and will not be able to benefit from any discounted fares or Railcard discounts.

Warning! It is a Criminal Offence to travel without buying a ticket.

On my last trip, I noted the Guard charged the two girls in the next bay (who got on at Stalybridge with no tickets) the full £3.30 single. I imagine this also may factor into their decision to resist then selling me a £2.30 ticket within earshot.

Yes, I suppose I should write to TPX, but having gone through all this unsuccessfully before when I used to get the earlier 20:46 train and had difficulty buying a Cheap Evening Return because we had no TVM in those days; perhaps I'm getting old, but I really prefer to pay the extra and not spoil my night out with a pointless argument.
 

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yorkie

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table38 - have you written to TPE about this issue? What was their response? If not, would you like to write a letter?
 

323235

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I really think someone should write to them about this. I have tweeted them about it however I do think it needs following up with a letter, if possible following a specific instance where someone has been refused either an Evening Return by a Transpennine Express Guard.
 
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table38

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OK I need to do some up-to-date research because, as I said, I've been taking the least path of resistance of late and buying an offpeak ticket from the TVM.

The last time I was refused was actually returning from Manchester on the 23:21 and wanted an Evening Ranger rather than a single*

Now here's a thing... why doesn't the National Rail planner show the Evening Ranger as the cheapest fare? It certainly knows about the £1.55 Cheap Evening Returns before 9pm.

Before I make a *** of myself, is there some restriction on the Evening Ranger I'm forgetting?



* Ticket Office closes at 22:30, and no Rangers in the TVMs in those days - I need to check the Northern ones at Piccadilly don't offer them now. Also I was told the Metrolink TVMs sell them? Need to check!
 

323235

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National Rail Enquiries said:
Evening Rangers are valid after 1830 until 0230 the following morning
Therefore they should be available to purchase until midnight. So there is no reason why you should have been refused one coming back from Manchester at that time.

Question - has the expiry time now changed to 0430 with the change to the railway day as National Rail Enquiries still lists it as 0230?

TPE have tweeted me back to confirm that they have passed the Evening Ranger purchasing issue onto management.

I have made them aware of this thread.
 
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34D

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Did anything change, re these tickets available on TVMs, please?
 

Starmill

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Old thread, same issues. Up here you've not a cat in Hell's chance of a part exchanged ticket. And if you buy a more expensive one and want a refund, you'd be lucky if its Northern customer services you need to contact.

I'm reminded of a politician who is pretending to hear a different question to the one they were asked:

Thank you for your comment form, which I received recently.

I am concerned that the ticket you purchased on the train was not suitable for your journey. Passengers should check their tickets at the time of purchase, as this is often the only way staff will find out that a mistake has been made. Please, always make sure your tickets are correct before the conductor has moved on.

Although I appreciate that this may be disappointing, as it is your responsibility to check your tickets, I cannot offer the requested refund. I have passed your comment form to the manager in charge, asking that they investigate, but I cannot help you any further on this matter.
 

table38

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I did get an answer to a slightly different but related question from Northern in this thread here when I asked about their poster at Stalybridge which says "When you travel from a station with an open ticket office or ticket machine, you must have a ticket for the journey you are making before you get on the train" and what I am supposed to do when I want an Evening Ranger and the ticket office is closed and the TVM doesn't sell them:

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

If the ticket office is closed you can buy tickets on the train from the conductor.

If the ticket office is open then you should buy them from ticket office.

It is part of the conditions of carriage and is being monitored by revenue staff for all train operating companies.

This is due to significant fare evasion that exists currently.

if you offer to pay there is no issue.

I trust this information will help you further.

I haven't checked the TVM for a couple of weeks now.
 
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