Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

[Bald Rick]

Linking article from Spain about how opening competition on high speed services boosts passenger numbers, 33% rise

Relevant because it seems Spanish are behind this proposed new services via Channel tunnel

Full Throttle: Spanish High-Speed Trains Shatter Records

Hold on tight because Spain’s high-speed train network is not just breaking records; it’s leaving them in the dust!

euroweeklynews.com

Might be why so many are jumping on the long distance trains bandwagon, especially with EU liberalising long distance travel

Higher frequency increases passenger numbers shock!

More passengers in 2023 than 2022 double shock!!

 

[paul1609]

If Eurostar can sell tickets at £150+ Why would it want to compete for £20?

I dont understand why people think channel rail tickets can ever be so low.
According to Seat 61 London STP to Paris Gare du nord is 305 miles.
Thats the same as Kings Cross to just past Alnmouth or Euston to a couple of miles south of Gretna Green.
Take the domestic rail price, add on a high speed supplement add on a fee to cover passport checks, add on a fee to cover security and a toll to go through the tunnel.
The break even price must be in excess of £100 average standard fare.

 

[Bald Rick]

I dont understand why people think channel rail tickets can ever be so low.
According to Seat 61 London STP to Paris Gare du nord is 305 miles.
Thats the same as Kings Cross to just past Alnmouth or Euston to a couple of miles south of Gretna Green.
Take the domestic rail price, add on a high speed supplement add on a fee to cover passport checks, add on a fee to cover security and a toll to go through the tunnel.
The break even price must be in excess of £100 average standard fare.

You could quite easily work out the break even fare.

It is total eurostar costs divided by total eurostar passengers.

IIRC before Covid it was nudging £100 per single trip passenger. It will be over that now, I expect.

By the same method you can say that Easyjet’s average break even ‘fare’ in 2022 was £83 before APD (average for all their routes).

 

[ainsworth74]

Given that Mobico deny any involvement in this venture perhaps a change of thread title is in order?

They have?

 

[Gaelan]

They have?

Yes, for example as reported by Sky:

The largest holding in the company is owned by Spain's Cosmen family whose interests include a large stake in Mobico - the rail and coach operator formerly known as National Express.

Mobico said it was not part of the consortium.

 

[SocietyForFer]

You could quite easily work out the break even fare.

It is total eurostar costs divided by total eurostar passengers.

IIRC before Covid it was nudging £100 per single trip passenger. It will be over that now, I expect.

By the same method you can say that Easyjet’s average break even ‘fare’ in 2022 was £83 before APD (average for all their routes).

If we look at the official earnings:

https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_financial?language=

Sales: €1,532 million • EBITDA: €332 million • 14.8 million passengers

(€1530000000 - €332000000) / 14800000 = €80.9459459

 

[Bald Rick]

If we look at the official earnings:

https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_financial?language=

Sales: €1,532 million • EBITDA: €332 million • 14.8 million passengers

(€1530000000 - €332000000) / 14800000 = €80.9459459

Yep, but that includes former Thalys, where fares are cheaper.

 

[Citybreak1]

Cologne, Frankfurt and Geneva should appear on the train departure screens from London by 2030, the boss of Eurotunnel vowed.

https://x.com/indytravel/status/1735340440730161224?s=46

And they claim space in will be made. So that must mean they plan to use St Pancras

 

[StephenHunter]

https://x.com/indytravel/status/1735340440730161224?s=46

And they claim space in will be made. So that must mean they plan to use St Pancras

You can put stuff above the platforms at St Pancras if you really wanted to.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You can put stuff above the platforms at St Pancras if you really wanted to.

I suspect listed building regulations would make that rather difficult....

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect listed building regulations would make that rather difficult....

Not to mention Physics.

 

[ABB125]

Just drop a few steel wires from the roof, and attach a lightweight metal platform to the ends (I'm thinking along the lines of a metal grille, where most of the area is actually a hole (see picture). If protection from things dropping onto the platforms below is needed, just hang a vinyl sheet or something underneath). Some lightweight stairs can then be added to allow access to the platforms. This new platform then becomes the "standard class holding area" (to avoid needing to add heavy facilities to the platform), whilst downstairs gets converted into the "executive lounge". (People who need to use a lift get automatic access to the executive lounge, regardless of the ticket they hold.) An quick, cheap, easy way to massively increase passenger capacity; can't see any problems with it at all!

 

[Fragezeichnen]

https://x.com/indytravel/status/1735340440730161224?s=46

And they claim space in will be made. So that must mean they plan to use St Pancras

I presume it would be possible to start denying Eurostar slot requests in favour of another operator if that was what was desired.
One of the rules used in Germany used for path allocation on oversubscribed routes is that the greater the total journey length of a train, the higher it's priority. So you could either implement that and favour any service which goes beyond the Three Capitals regardless of operator, or just give every operator a minimum number of slots before you start allocating any extras.

 

[RT4038]

I presume it would be possible to start denying Eurostar slot requests in favour of another operator if that was what was desired.
One of the rules used in Germany used for path allocation on oversubscribed routes is that the greater the total journey length of a train, the higher it's priority. So you could either implement that and favour any service which goes beyond the Three Capitals regardless of operator, or just give every operator a minimum number of slots before you start allocating any extras.

I think it unlikely that any slot allocation is going to be at the expense of the existing operator and their existing timetable. Any vacant slots could possibly be allocated in the way you suggest, but more likely on the basis of bidding? Not sure that the German rules are necessarily the best in this instance, and anyway there are still the immigration check issues to be resolved....

 

[zwk500]

I presume it would be possible to start denying Eurostar slot requests in favour of another operator if that was what was desired.
One of the rules used in Germany used for path allocation on oversubscribed routes is that the greater the total journey length of a train, the higher it's priority. So you could either implement that and favour any service which goes beyond the Three Capitals regardless of operator, or just give every operator a minimum number of slots before you start allocating any extras.

I think it unlikely that any slot allocation is going to be at the expense of the existing operator and their existing timetable. Any vacant slots could possibly be allocated in the way you suggest, but more likely on the basis of bidding? Not sure that the German rules are necessarily the best in this instance, and anyway there are still the immigration check issues to be resolved....

HS1 has a Network Code the specifies the process for allocating capacity, including decision criteria and resolution procedure. https://highspeed1.co.uk/media/1vpnzrgr/2012-december-hs1-network-code.pdf

It's quite a long section (pp.41-42, pages 43/44 of the pdf along with more at the back of the document), but in essence Eurostar can't just be kicked out. Changing the decision criteria requires a Network Change process, also detailed in the network code, and to which Eurostar would be party.

 

[BRX]

The large area at platform level, beyond the buffer stops, always seems a very under-utilised part of St Pancras to me. Both inside and outside of the glass screen. I have sometimes wondered whether they could have had departures & arrivals the other way around, such that that bit could be part of the waiting area for departures. Although it would be unheated it would mean you could enjoy the full space of the renovated station more fully - something you currently only experience rather briefly whether arriving or departing. It would also help it to feel more like a "real" station with a bustle of people at the main platform level, rather than the current shopping centre/airport vibe.

 

[zwk500]

The large area at platform level, beyond the buffer stops, always seems a very under-utilised part of St Pancras to me. Both inside and outside of the glass screen. I have sometimes wondered whether they could have had departures & arrivals the other way around, such that that bit could be part of the waiting area for departures. Although it would be unheated it would mean you could enjoy the full space of the renovated station more fully - something you currently only experience rather briefly whether arriving or departing. It would also help it to feel more like a "real" station with a bustle of people at the main platform level, rather than the current shopping centre/airport vibe.

Tbh the better idea would be to have the customs queues up on top, so you walk straight off the platform (as at Paris-Nord), which would release the arrivals space for more departures lounge. However people would no doubt object to any design for such a structure.

 

[StephenHunter]

Tbh the better idea would be to have the customs queues up on top, so you walk straight off the platform (as at Paris-Nord), which would release the arrivals space for more departures lounge. However people would no doubt object to any design for such a structure.

You could have glass partitions that open and close as appropriate.

 

[popeter45]

You can put stuff above the platforms at St Pancras if you really wanted to.

or the starford idea, did notice yesterday the part built for international service waiting is now empty when ive seen it used as office space in the past

Just drop a few steel wires from the roof, and attach a lightweight metal platform to the ends (I'm thinking along the lines of a metal grille, where most of the area is actually a hole (see picture). If protection from things dropping onto the platforms below is needed, just hang a vinyl sheet or something underneath). Some lightweight stairs can then be added to allow access to the platforms. This new platform then becomes the "standard class holding area" (to avoid needing to add heavy facilities to the platform), whilst downstairs gets converted into the "executive lounge". (People who need to use a lift get automatic access to the executive lounge, regardless of the ticket they hold.) An quick, cheap, easy way to massively increase passenger capacity; can't see any problems with it at all!

or the buy one of the building next to st pancras and the over-platform structure is just a walkway similar to how its done at gare du nord

 

[ThameslinkUser]

or the buy one of the building next to st pancras and the over-platform structure is just a walkway similar to how its done at gare du nord

Sounds cheap

 

[Citybreak1]

EUROPE: Eurotunnel is working with rolling stock supplier and safety authorities to simplify the standards that apply to cross-Channel rail traffic. These standards will be incorporated into the design of trains now being developed or built in the future.

https://x.com/railbusinessuk/status/1736702960611066272?s=46

All signs look promising and looks like additional space will be found at St Pancras.

 

[zwk500]

https://x.com/railbusinessuk/status/1736702960611066272?s=46

All signs look promising and looks like additional space will be found at St Pancras.

The boss of Eurotunnel simply waving his hand and declaring it so does not make St Pancras suddenly transform into a vast oasis of plentiful space.
There will likely be enough additional space for a handful of extra paths per day. Which might be enough for DB to extend a Brussels service to London, or Eurostar a Brussels train to Köln. But not much.

 

[JaJaWa]

I guess Eurotunnel stating they will assist & subsidise new entrants is why so many were announced in one go

 

[nwales58]

An IRJ article on that interview with Getlink's CEO that is worth reading in full to understand the possible future:

Getlink works to double high-speed services from London within 10 years

Getlink has announced plans to double the number of high-speed services from London to continental Europe via the Channel Tunnel.

www.railjournal.com

Vital bits as credibility check on any new announcements:

A new entrant needs about a billion in capital

Likely time from start of plan to new services around 5 years

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The large area at platform level, beyond the buffer stops, always seems a very under-utilised part of St Pancras to me. Both inside and outside of the glass screen. I have sometimes wondered whether they could have had departures & arrivals the other way around, such that that bit could be part of the waiting area for departures. Although it would be unheated it would mean you could enjoy the full space of the renovated station more fully - something you currently only experience rather briefly whether arriving or departing. It would also help it to feel more like a "real" station with a bustle of people at the main platform level, rather than the current shopping centre/airport vibe.

You are correct, it is a shame the space is underutilised and the trains trapped by glass. Patiently awaiting the day we join Schengen so we can roll on or off the Eurostar with little more difficulty than getting on the Bromley North Shuttle. In a perfect world I suppose you could built a glass enclosure over the taxi ramp, and use that and the hotel building itself as part of the security check in so you could just roll onto the train at platform level. But that might look a bit weird on the outside.

 

[StephenHunter]

You are correct, it is a shame the space is underutilised and the trains trapped by glass. Patiently awaiting the day we join Schengen so we can roll on or off the Eurostar with little more difficulty than getting on the Bromley North Shuttle. In a perfect world I suppose you could built a glass enclosure over the taxi ramp, and use that and the hotel building itself as part of the security check in so you could just roll onto the train at platform level. But that might look a bit weird on the outside.

It would also help with passenger flow.

 

[Goldfish62]

The boss of Eurotunnel simply waving his hand and declaring it so does not make St Pancras suddenly transform into a vast oasis of plentiful space.
There will likely be enough additional space for a handful of extra paths per day. Which might be enough for DB to extend a Brussels service to London, or Eurostar a Brussels train to Köln. But not much.

DB can barely make it to Brussels on a normal day let alone extending to London.

 

[nwales58]

DB can barely make it to Brussels on a normal day let alone extending to London.

Largely due to the unreliability of the ICE-3M specialist sub-fleet until the replacements take over.

German infrastructure is the wider problem. An operator with reliable units would be aiming for a path from Brussels on the HSL then the tunnel. With current performance around Frankfurt and Köln that would need a lot of padding at Brussels or fallback paths 30' and 60' later, which is not realistic.

Mods: how about a new thread on cross-channel new entrants as 11 pages on this is no longer discussing Evolyn?