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Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

Bald Rick

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Given that Geneva's roughly 600 miles from St Pancras would £150 once you take in to account Passport Checks Tunnel Costs etc really turn a profit?
If so, Id suggest Network Rail should be paying profits to the taxpayer rather than requiring subsidy.

£150 minimum would. That’s not the average (esp when you include all the Premier / Business fares). Basically the same as the Avignon train, which I assume did make money (otherwise Eurostar wouldn’t have run them).

What‘s the link between Eurostar being profitable and Network Rail? Eurostar don‘t run on NR.
 
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Gaelan

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Given that Geneva's roughly 600 miles from St Pancras would £150 once you take in to account Passport Checks Tunnel Costs etc really turn a profit?
If so, Id suggest Network Rail should be paying profits to the taxpayer rather than requiring subsidy.
London to Edinburgh return is about that, and can be comfortably done for £90 with no railcard and reasonable luck with advances.

Obviously channel tunnel services cost more for various reasons, but seems like the right ballpark.
 

Sorcerer

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London to Geneva based on current infrastructure is probably not feasible. At a minimum you could be looking at 5-7 hours travel time which wouldn't be anywhere near competitive enough for passengers to switch from planes to trains on UK-Switzerland routes.
 

Bald Rick

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London to Geneva based on current infrastructure is probably not feasible. At a minimum you could be looking at 5-7 hours travel time which wouldn't be anywhere near competitive enough for passengers to switch from planes to trains on UK-Switzerland routes.

If non-stop, it would be about 5h30. It wouldn‘t capture all the air market, but it would definitely capture some. In the same way plenty of people take the train London - Aberdeen or Inverness, and previously did to Avignon, Moutiers and Bourg St Maurice.
 

Sorcerer

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If non-stop, it would be about 5h30. It wouldn‘t capture all the air market, but it would definitely capture some. In the same way plenty of people take the train London - Aberdeen or Inverness, and previously did to Avignon, Moutiers and Bourg St Maurice.
I suppose that's not too bad a journey time when you consider the 2 hours checking in and security before the 1h 35m flight from London to Geneva combined with the hassle of getting to and from airports along with airport checks. That said it might also be a good option for potential sleeper services which seem to be making a comeback in Europe. Not needing to check into a hotel and being able to travel between city centres directly rather than needing to travel to and from airports might appeal to the businessman/businesswoman travelling between the cities for business purposes as well as leisure travellers who just prefer travelling by train. If I had the option, I would definitely prefer travelling overnight on a train in a comfortable bed compartment rather than the hassle of going through the airports and the cheap cramped feeling of a low-cost airline. Not that Ryanair is that bad, but I am just not a fan of flying.
 

BRX

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Many Swiss ski resorts are very well connected by rail. If you arrive by rail into Geneva, it's then very easy simply to change to your onwards train. No lugging of heavy bags around the airport. Of course, part of this advantage is lost if you have to change trains at Lille.

But actually what puts many people off travelling to Switzerland by rail is ticketing. I know from experience because I do it from time to time, to go skiing there with a group of friends. I am usually the only one who travels the whole way by rail. I try and persuade the others to try it, and some of them have. The barrier is the complexity (or apparent complexity) of buying the right combination of tickets to get there. It's hard work finding the fares that compete with the airline prices. If you just plug in London to *insert swiss ski resort* into one of the booking engines like trainline you'll get a through fare but it'll usually be a silly amount.

To some extent Eurostar wouldn't even have to lay on their "own" ski train. Just sort out a deal with SNCF and SBB to offer competitively priced through fares to the end destination in Switzerland. Make it easy for people to buy in one click.

Of course, this is the problem that plagues all of European cross border traffic ... Once your journey involves more than two countries.

I think the difficulty of through ticketing is a much bigger obstacle than journey time, in many cases. It's very slowly getting better but it's still miles away from how easy it is to buy an air ticket. So people stick to what they know, and go to one of the plane booking engines.
 

AlexNL

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Now that Eurostar and Thalys have merged, in theory it should be easier for the new integrated operator to create some sort of through ticketed service. It could also work in the other direction by connecting with London bound Eurostar services which call at Lille Europe.

"Take 'Eurostar Blue' from London to Lille Europe, and change there for a connecting 'Eurostar Red' train to Geneva SNCF"

In practice I don't really see this happen anytime soon, just due to the relatively small size of their fleet.
 

BahrainLad

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That is the theory, and in fact what the merger promised when it was announced. However there has yet to be any development around through ticketing with associated pricing, either for cash or points. Not to mention connection protection (i.e. Eurostar would guarantee to look after you if you missed a connection between two 'sectors' on one ticket) which would be a real boost to passengers and something that the airline industry worked out in the 1960s.
 

Fragezeichnen

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This already exists. It's called HOTNAT and organised through Railteam, which as you mention is meant to be the rail equivalent of Airline Alliances.
 

Bald Rick

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Take 'Eurostar Blue' from London to Lille Europe, and change there for a connecting 'Eurostar Red' train to Geneva SNCF"

Slight issue being that there arent any direct services of any type (Red, TGV or Oui) from Lille to Geneva.
 

BRX

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This already exists. It's called HOTNAT and organised through Railteam, which as you mention is meant to be the rail equivalent of Airline Alliances.
Sure but this mainly deals with what happens once your journey is underway, which is good, but it doesn't really address the process of booking and buying tickets.
 

BahrainLad

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HOTNAT is a good first step but it still puts the burden on the passenger to go and find someone to affix the 'stamp' etc. as I understand. I'm not sure if it covers hotel accommodation if the missed connection forces an overnight stop?
Incidentally, the airlines didn't need to form alliances in order to do through-ticketing, interlining and missed connection protection - it was part of IATA way before the alliances came along in the 1990s.
 

rvdborgt

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This already exists. It's called HOTNAT and organised through Railteam, which as you mention is meant to be the rail equivalent of Airline Alliances.
Since it's all Eurostar now, any tickets sold for connecting Eurostar services in one booking are automatically a through ticket under EU regulation 2021/782, which went into force in June this year. No HOTNAT or AJC needed.
 

AlexNL

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Slight issue being that there arent any direct services of any type (Red, TGV or Oui) from Lille to Geneva.
That's my point, an operator like Eurostar could create one if they'd have the stock for it.

If it turns out there's huge demand for London - Geneva despite the Lille shuffle it might even be worth investigating the creation of a through service.
 

Bald Rick

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If it turns out there's huge demand for London - Geneva despite the Lille shuffle it might even be worth investigating the creation of a through service.

We know there‘s significant demand for London to Geneva, over 2.5m people a year fly it. Thats around twice the combined London - Lyon / Marseille / Montpellier / Nîmes market which eurostar used to serve, and around half the London - Amsterdam flow. In February this year it was nearly 10,000 people a day.
 
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rvdborgt

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We know there‘s significant demand for London to Geneva, over 2.5m people a year fly it. Thats around twice the combined London - Lyon / Marseille / Montpellier / Nîmes market which eurostar used to serve. In February this year it was nearly 10,000 people a day.
That's why I don't understand that Eurostar don't offer Geneva as a bookable destination on their website. They offer many TGV destinations in France, such as indeed the ones you mentioned, and also Bourg-en-Bresse, on the way to Geneva, but not Geneva itself.
 

30907

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That's why I don't understand that Eurostar don't offer Geneva as a bookable destination on their website. They offer many TGV destinations in France, such as indeed the ones you mentioned, and also Bourg-en-Bresse, on the way to Geneva, but not Geneva itself.
Ditto Basel.

I suspect it's because the international TGV Lyria is financially separate from TGV - despite the fact that the same trains serve Bourg/Mulhouse.

(When researching fares to Geneva, SNCF threw up a split-ticketing opportunity at Bellegarde using a timelimited offer that was SNCF only, plus the TER across the border.)

BTW A lot of Geneva air traffic is for French resorts, for which Eurostar competes.
 

tasky

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At the risk of going off topic I've always thought it would make a lot of sense for Eurostar to offer Luxembourg as a bookable destination as well, given they already sell an Any Belgian Station ticket to Arlon a few miles away, and the stretch of the journey inside Luxembourg is free.
 

Chester1

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If the relevant governments were interested in boosting international services to and from the UK then maybe converting Eurostar into an international franchise would be a good approach. Routes that are only marginally profitable could be concluded in the spec. For example London - Lyon - Marseille/Alps. London to Bordeaux summer services. London - Geneva and London - Frankfurt daily services.

If Evolyn does start services then an agreement between UK and France or EU to ban London-Paris end to end flight ticket sales would be viable. Two train operators providing competition and a 2 and a half journey time should be sufficient to force remaining point to point air passengers to transfer to rail.
 

Sorcerer

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If the relevant governments were interested in boosting international services to and from the UK then maybe converting Eurostar into an international franchise would be a good approach. Routes that are only marginally profitable could be concluded in the spec. For example London - Lyon - Marseille/Alps. London to Bordeaux summer services. London - Geneva and London - Frankfurt daily services.
There is of course the question in Channel Tunnel capacity along with available paths. I don't quite know how many trains Getlink run through the tunnel already, but there would still be a fair amount of work needed to squeeze in so many new services alongside the existing Eurostar and Le Shuttle trains and integrate that into the timings of each service such as when they depart which station in order to reach the tunnel in time so as not to miss their paths.
 

Trainbike46

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There is of course the question in Channel Tunnel capacity along with available paths. I don't quite know how many trains Getlink run through the tunnel already, but there would still be a fair amount of work needed to squeeze in so many new services alongside the existing Eurostar and Le Shuttle trains and integrate that into the timings of each service such as when they depart which station in order to reach the tunnel in time so as not to miss their paths.
There is 4 reserved paths for passenger trains per hour (departing :01, :04, :31, :34 from STP) and at least at some hours an extra one around :16, so there should be enough paths available
 
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DovaModaal

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At the risk of going off topic I've always thought it would make a lot of sense for Eurostar to offer Luxembourg as a bookable destination as well
More bookable destinations would be nice.
However, in the case of a missed connection Luxembourg-Brussels-London, even with two separate tickets, you will be able to continue on the next Eurostar train to London, since Eurostar signed very recently the Agreement on Journey Continuation AJC (as did NMBS/SNCB and SNCF before).
For Geneva it is currently still difficult since AJC does not cover two different stations in Paris AFAIK.
 
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nwales58

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If the relevant governments were interested in boosting international services to and from the UK then maybe converting Eurostar into an international franchise ...
Eurostar is a company, with its roots in an international treaty, not a franchise so there is no franchise specification.

The national governments still involved are France and Belgium (if 5% has any influence). The UK sold its share around 2015. The french government's interest in international services can be seen in the ex-Thalys services problems, i.e. close to nil.
 

Chester1

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Eurostar is a company, with its roots in an international treaty, not a franchise so there is no franchise specification.

The national governments still involved are France and Belgium (if 5% has any influence). The UK sold its share around 2015. The french government's interest in international services can be seen in the ex-Thalys services problems, i.e. close to nil.

Macron and Starmer do seem to be keen to build relations and have the two governments do stuff together though. A Eurostar 2.0 would go down very well with Labour's core vote of Metropolitan liberals. French government might be happy to share the risk of an expanded Eurostar, especially if it means more environmentally friendly tourism.

A treaty just blocking point to point flight tickets between London and Paris when there are two or more train operators running in under 2.5 hours might be another option. Its in line with French domestic policy and would mean more revenue for Eurostar.
 

nwales58

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On Eurostar, I don't know the precise position without digging but you need to start with the inter-governmental treaty (Canterbury?) and how it is affected by the subsequent nth Railway Packages (union law, but may not trump a treaty) and finally the 2020 Withdrawal Agreement and any subsequent inter-govermental working group stuff (international treaty so overrides previous law) to understand precisely what governments can and can't tell Eurostar to do legally and how Getlink goes about allocating paths, again legally so that it cannot be challenged in court.

The essence is that before we left it was liberalised in the same way as other intra-EU rail traffic albeit with a different legal basis. I assume that the Withdrawal Agreement etc preserved that status but I don't know for sure.

From the way Getlink are encouraging competing users for the free paths that were previously defined in the treaties it is clearly up to them and the legal framework, not national governments.

On the flights point, check how aviation law works, in particular bilateral air services agreements and the differences for EU member states. We left EU open skies and now have a bilateral treaty with the UE which is supposedly similar. Renegotiating that is EU level and therefore would first need a common position by all heads of government for the EU to negotiate with us. Expect nasty surprises such as Ryan or Wizz pressurising Ireland, Hungary or somewhere else to put a spanner in the works.

This stuff is horribly horribly difficult and it's best when politicians are kept out of it (by previously agreeing that they won't interfere, which takes us back to the competition-based approach for which the UK pushed for so long).
 

Chester1

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On Eurostar, I don't know the precise position without digging but you need to start with the inter-governmental treaty (Canterbury?) and how it is affected by the subsequent nth Railway Packages (union law, but may not trump a treaty) and finally the 2020 Withdrawal Agreement and any subsequent inter-govermental working group stuff (international treaty so overrides previous law) to understand precisely what governments can and can't tell Eurostar to do legally and how Getlink goes about allocating paths, again legally so that it cannot be challenged in court.

The essence is that before we left it was liberalised in the same way as other intra-EU rail traffic albeit with a different legal basis. I assume that the Withdrawal Agreement etc preserved that status but I don't know for sure.

From the way Getlink are encouraging competing users for the free paths that were previously defined in the treaties it is clearly up to them and the legal framework, not national governments.

On the flights point, check how aviation law works, in particular bilateral air services agreements and the differences for EU member states. We left EU open skies and now have a bilateral treaty with the UE which is supposedly similar. Renegotiating that is EU level and therefore would first need a common position by all heads of government for the EU to negotiate with us. Expect nasty surprises such as Ryan or Wizz pressurising Ireland, Hungary or somewhere else to put a spanner in the works.

This stuff is horribly horribly difficult and it's best when politicians are kept out of it (by previously agreeing that they won't interfere, which takes us back to the competition-based approach for which the UK pushed for so long).

A franchise seems too challenging perhaps. It really would not be a good look for any government even Hungary to veto a green agreement on London - Paris plane journeys. Wizz Air doesn’t have enough financial incentive to lobby hard on it either. Maybe Ryanair does but I can't see an Irish Government run partially by the Green Party vetoing a London-Paris point to point ticket sale ban. If the Evolyn service is running in 2025-26 when the Trade and Co-operation agreement review takes place then it would be a very simple amendment.

I think the situation in UK law is that if any part of a treaty breaches UK law, then the parliament needs to pass accompanying legislation. Parliament cannot veto treaties but neither can the government use them to pass legislation by the back door.
 

Bald Rick

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Wizz Air doesn’t have enough financial incentive to lobby hard on it either. Maybe Ryanair does but I can't see an Irish Government run partially by the Green Party vetoing a London-Paris point to point ticket sale ban.

Neither Wizz nor FR operate London Paris so would have no interest in opposing a London - Paris point to point ticket ban. Given that (AIUI) the overwhelming majority of BA and AF passengers on the route are connecting, it would be EZY that has most to lose, which Wizz and FR would be delighted with.
 

Chester1

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Neither Wizz nor FR operate London Paris so would have no interest in opposing a London - Paris point to point ticket ban. Given that (AIUI) the overwhelming majority of BA and AF passengers on the route are connecting, it would be EZY that has most to lose, which Wizz and FR would be delighted with.

I don't want to derail the thread with this topic but for me it is the most exciting possibility if Mobico start a second service. I am strongly against the fanatical stop flying approach but if you have two or more operators competing on a rail journey in under two and a half hours its a no brainer to use it as trial. Currently some people will have to fly point to point between London and Paris because of Eurostar pricing and capacity limits.
 

Bald Rick

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Currently some people will have to fly point to point between London and Paris because of Eurostar pricing and capacity limits.

its not Eurostar pricing. There is, effectively , a minimum price for using the train through the tunnel, regardless of operator, and that is the tunnel ‘toll’ fee eurostar (and any operator ) has to pay eurotunnel per passenger.
 

Chester1

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its not Eurostar pricing. There is, effectively , a minimum price for using the train through the tunnel, regardless of operator, and that is the tunnel ‘toll’ fee eurostar (and any operator ) has to pay eurotunnel per passenger.

I was more thinking of when Eurostar is charging an eye watering amount but your right its not Eurostar's fault when it can't compete if EasyJet is offering £20 one way. In an ideal situation there would be a service between St Pancras and Charles de Gaulle but that would only be financially viable with Air France support. It makes sense that Mobico is focusing on the most successful Eurostar route.
 

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