• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
Mobico, the new name for the company which operates National Express coaches in the UK (and other transport interests) are reported to be in talks with one of their investors, the Cosmen family, to start train services between London and Paris.
The Mobico-led group has been discussing an order with French train maker Alstom, and with the operators of both the Channel Tunnel and high-speed rail infrastructure in the UK, one of the people said.

The Cosmen family, which sold its Madrid bus company to National Express in 2005, is the biggest shareholder in the UK group.

Mobico, the Cosmen family and Alstom declined to comment.
National Express owner plots Eurostar rival - https://on.ft.com/43MOmwq via @FT
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,151
Location
London
Space at St Pancras International would be hard to find, but they could do Stratford International providing they paid for Border Force etc.
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,224
The article also notes

One industry executive said border delays would have to be fixed through the use of new technology before any extra operator was feasible.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
Space at St Pancras International would be hard to find, but they could do Stratford International providing they paid for Border Force etc.
Stratford would be the worst option. Reopening Ebbsfleet would be Cheaper, easier, quicker, has better parking, and can actually reverse the trains without needing to throw massive spanners in the timetable. Ashford would be better than Stratford but probably what it gains over Ebbsfleet in Operational ease and connectivity it loses out on distance from London and Parking.

Given the overheads involved in setting up a train operation, I can't imagine this will get too far. I suspect it's trying to see what gaps might exist between Eurostar, Ryanair/Easyjet and Flixbus for cross-channel operation but the market for rail is very tricky to break into on that corridor.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
Stratford would be the worst option. Reopening Ebbsfleet would be Cheaper, easier, quicker, has better parking, and can actually reverse the trains without needing to throw massive spanners in the timetable. Ashford would be better than Stratford but probably what it gains over Ebbsfleet in Operational ease and connectivity it loses out on distance from London and Parking.

Given the overheads involved in setting up a train operation, I can't imagine this will get too far. I suspect it's trying to see what gaps might exist between Eurostar, Ryanair/Easyjet and Flixbus for cross-channel operation but the market for rail is very tricky to break into on that corridor.
Of course, commercially the market is for Central London. Yes there are certain secondary advantages in motorway access and ample parking, which both Ebbsfleet and Ashford would provide, and yes it's true that in the post Elizabeth line world, Stratford isn't poorly connected (though note it's a very long walk, or an additional change of trains, to get from Stratford International to the Elizabeth line at Stratford). But those secondary connectivity advantages are very unlikely to be sufficient to overcome the market demand to be as central as possible.

The non-stop trains between Paris Nord and London St Pancras provide very competitive door-to-door journey times indeed for literally millions of people to reach the other city, which is one reason why Eurostar have leaned into this element so much. It's difficult to see a competitor doing well without that advantage.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
Of course, commercially the market is for Central London. Yes there are certain secondary advantages in motorway access and ample parking, which both Ebbsfleet and Ashford would provide, and yes it's true that in the post Elizabeth line world, Stratford isn't poorly connected (though note it's a very long walk, or an additional change of trains, to get from Stratford International to the Elizabeth line at Stratford). But those secondary connectivity advantages are very unlikely to be sufficient to overcome the market demand to be as central as possible.
All very true, but I was assuming that as Eurostar have to limit ticket sales because of St Pancras's constrains on processing passengers at peak times any new operator would be looking for an alternative location, at least initially.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
All very true, but I was assuming that as Eurostar have to limit ticket sales because of St Pancras's constrains on processing passengers at peak times any new operator would be looking for an alternative location, at least initially.
I suspect you're right if it started up somewhere else and then had a statement of "until we start using St Pancras" that could be a viable business.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
I suspect you're right if it started up somewhere else and then had a statement of "until we start using St Pancras" that could be a viable business.
Personally I can't see it happening. The cost of operating through the tunnel is vast, and you'd need the revenue from Central London sooner than any viable solution to the border issues could be put in place. I expect this is just a strategy exploration and will be used to justify a coach service instead.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
Personally I can't see it happening. The cost of operating through the tunnel is vast, and you'd need the revenue from Central London sooner than any viable solution to the border issues could be put in place. I expect this is just a strategy exploration and will be used to justify a coach service instead.
Sadly I think that this is closer to the truth. If there's no visibility on how the service will reach Central London in the future it wouldn't be attractive even to the most sympathetic investors.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
It would be nice to think that someone was about to break Eurostar's monopoly and persuade them to bring down their ruinously expensive fares, but somehow I can't see it happening. As it's National Express, I wonder whether there would be any demand for a coach service from Ashford connecting with Javelin trains from London, taking the Channel Tunnel shuttle to Calais and connecting on to SNCF domestic services to Paris. I reckon a journey time of around 5hr 45min would be feasible, which is quicker than coach all the way and could give a reasonable arrival time in Paris.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
It would be nice to think that someone was about to break Eurostar's monopoly and persuade them to bring down their ruinously expensive fares, but somehow I can't see it happening.
Eurostar's ruinously expensive fares of ... £40-£90. FWIW last time I needed a short notice trip to Paris (had left booking too late) the Easyjet prices were at or higher than Eurostar was charging for the same time frames.
As it's National Express, I wonder whether there would be any demand for a coach service from Ashford connecting with Javelin trains from London and to SNCF domestic services in Calais. I reckon a journey time of around 5hr 45min would be feasible, which is quicker than coach all the way and could give a reasonable arrival time in Paris.
The problem for National Express is that Flixbus and megabus kind of steal the lowest-price element of the coach market, and cross-channel is too long to really market a slightly more upmarket coach journey. I think Train to Ashford, Coach to Calais, Train to Paris of vice versa won't be attractive as it's lots of on and off (and plenty of opportunity for delay). But I wonder if London-France by coach and connecting onto SNCF at Calais or even Lille might be attractive enough.
 

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,151
Location
London
Sadly I think that this is closer to the truth. If there's no visibility on how the service will reach Central London in the future it wouldn't be attractive even to the most sympathetic investors.
Stratford is getting pretty close to being Central London, economically and culturally speaking.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
Stratford is getting pretty close to being Central London, economically and culturally speaking.
If it didn't cost the £4.70 (£6.80 peak) to use Southeastern on top of Z1 London Underground fare it could almost work. Unfortunately that would probably need a significant increase in capacity just to carry people between Stratford and St Pancras. Neither that nor a change in the policy of excluding the fare from caps are going to be happening any time soon. Southeastern would object to the new services if they'd be carrying many hundreds of people who all turned up at the same time too.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
Eurostar's ruinously expensive fares of ... £40-£90. FWIW last time I needed a short notice trip to Paris (had left booking too late) the Easyjet prices were at or higher than Eurostar was charging for the same time frames.

The problem for National Express is that Flixbus and megabus kind of steal the lowest-price element of the coach market, and cross-channel is too long to really market a slightly more upmarket coach journey. I think Train to Ashford, Coach to Calais, Train to Paris of vice versa won't be attractive as it's lots of on and off (and plenty of opportunity for delay). But I wonder if London-France by coach and connecting onto SNCF at Calais or even Lille might be attractive enough.
Last time my missus did one of her shortish notice trips to France, it was well north of £300; flying would have been quite a bit cheaper but she's paranoid about flying. Yes, it would have been a lot cheaper if she'd booked in advance, but this was kind of a family emergency.
Eurostar fares are a bit of a sore point in our household; we must have spent thousands with them over the past couple of years.

Yes, coach to Calais/Lille might be a bit neater, though it would start to erode the time advantage over coach all the way. No reason why you couldn't offer both, I suppose - have the coach from London dive into Ashford station en route to the Tunnel and allow people to connect from the Javelin there if they so wish.
 

Pugwash

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
321
Stratford is very well connected,( with the 5 min walk through the shopping centre ) possibly better than St Pancras, opens up most of London, including the City, Canary Wharf and East Anglia.

It's a real shame that St Pancras does not have enough spare capacity for more operators given how recently it was rebuilt.
If it didn't cost the £4.70 (£6.80 peak) to use Southeastern on top of Z1 London Underground fare it could almost work. Unfortunately that would probably need a significant increase in capacity just to carry people between Stratford and St Pancras. Neither that nor a change in the policy of excluding the fare from caps are going to be happening any time soon. Southeastern would object to the new services if they'd be carrying many hundreds of people who all turned up at the same time too.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
Stratford is very well connected,( with the 5 min walk through the shopping centre ) possibly better than St Pancras, opens up most of London, including the City, Canary Wharf and East Anglia.
East Anglia is less advantageous than the St Pancras/King's Cross complex (Yorks & eastern Scotland) and Euston (West Mids, North West and Western Scotland) being only 10 mins walk away. St Pancras has Thameslink underneath it for connections to the City, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victoria and Jubilee from St P to Canary Wharf was quicker than the DLR or the change on the EL from Stratford.
It's a real shame that St Pancras does not have enough spare capacity for more operators given how recently it was rebuilt.
Yes, although it's easy to say in hindsight. There's also the issue that the shops are a critical revenue stream and if you sacrificed them for greater passenger capacity you'd potentially be adding costs into E* fares, which as people have pointed out are already higher than many would like.
 

williamn

Member
Joined
22 May 2008
Messages
1,129
East Anglia is less advantageous than the St Pancras/King's Cross complex (Yorks & eastern Scotland) and Euston (West Mids, North West and Western Scotland) being only 10 mins walk away. St Pancras has Thameslink underneath it for connections to the City, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victoria and Jubilee from St P to Canary Wharf was quicker than the DLR or the change on the EL from Stratford.

Yes, although it's easy to say in hindsight. There's also the issue that the shops are a critical revenue stream and if you sacrificed them for greater passenger capacity you'd potentially be adding costs into E* fares, which as people have pointed out are already higher than many would like.
At the risk of opening a can of worms it *did* have spare capacity pre-Brexit.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
At the risk of opening a can of worms it *did* have spare capacity pre-Brexit.
Yes, but we aren't there now. And I understand there is a plan to try and get a little bit of passenger capacity back through fiddling with the arrivals area, and by introducing more automatic gates and letting slightly more people use them.
 
Joined
21 Oct 2012
Messages
940
Location
Wilmslow
The FT article also reports that RENFE is seperately interested - maybe a joint effort as a strong partner? It has just relaunched services to Lyon and Marseille and is planning to compete with SNCF on the LGV Sud Est.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,420
Location
Bristol
The FT article also reports that RENFE is seperately interested - maybe a joint effort as a strong partner? It has just relaunched services to Lyon and Marseille and is planning to compete with SNCF on the LGV Sud Est.
RENFE have reportedly been interested since 2009, when they talked about Spain to London. They also made announcements in 2021 about their intention to operate future services. I think we will have to wait quite a while before RENFE get in on the action.
 

eisenach

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
169
Location
Leominster
Given the demise of the through Eurostar services to the North and beyond, running trains to a "Euro" Hub (Stratford? Ashford? Ebsfleet?) and then, after an interchange, on to Europe could be interesting.
My daughter lives in East London, but without that option, it would mean a hotel to get a suitable train, adding enormously to the cost.
This really needs to be sorted if we're to save the planet.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,396
Location
Bolton
Stratford is very well connected,( with the 5 min walk through the shopping centre ) possibly better than St Pancras, opens up most of London, including the City, Canary Wharf and East Anglia.

It's a real shame that St Pancras does not have enough spare capacity for more operators given how recently it was rebuilt.
If you're a quick walker, don't need to wait for lifts and don't have too much luggage, you could allow as little as 13 - 15 minutes between stepping off a train at Stratford International and being on the platform for the Elizabeth line. But no less than that is feasible, unless you're power walking or running. It's not a very good walk for that though because obviously nobody power walks around a shopping centre so you'll be constantly rushing into people. You won't make a perfect connection every time though, so most people a connection time between arrival and departure of trains of around 20 minutes is therefore about right, allowing for frequency on the Elizabeth line or Greater Anglia to London Liverpool Street.

Of course you could use the DLR and naturally you would do so if you were going towards Canning Town anyway, but if you do it just to Stratford to then change for the DLR via Bow Church, Central line, Jubilee line, London Overground or Elizabeth line, you may as well walk rather than risk waiting.
 

JaJaWa

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2013
Messages
1,705
Location
Full article for those without access. Strange the name has already been revealed (Evolyn)!

National Express owner plans to launch Eurostar rival​

Mobico has been holding talks with Spanish Cosmen family about cross-Channel rail service

28 July 2023
The group of companies is led by Mobico, which runs bus and coach services in the UK © John Stillwell/PA
A group of companies including the UK coach and train service company Mobico has held detailed talks over launching a cross-Channel train service to rival Eurostar.

Other parties involved in the discussions include the Spanish Cosmen industrialist family, which is an investor in Mobico, formerly known as National Express, according to two people with knowledge of the plans.

The new rail service, to be named Evolyn, would start running between London and Paris through the Channel Tunnel as early as 2025, they said, although final details have yet to be finalised and could change. The proposed consortium had also held discussions with other investors over funding, the people added.

The initiative would represent the first challenge to Eurostar’s monopoly of passenger rail traffic linking London to major cities in Europe including Brussels and Amsterdam as well as Paris.

There has long been talk of other companies taking on Eurostar, but no competitors have yet been able to overcome the logistical and financial challenges of operating services.

The group had held discussions to order trains from France-based manufacturer Alstom, and for permission to run services with the operators of both the Channel Tunnel and high-speed rail infrastructure in the UK, one of the people said.

Mobico, the Cosmen family and Alstom declined to comment. Eurostar has been contacted for comment.

The plan comes as Eurostar has struggled to increase capacity at its stations because of post-Brexit border checks.

The company has outlined plans to double passenger numbers from 15mn in 2022 to 30mn by 2030, but has pared back its route map to focus on its most profitable routes linking London with Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels.

Eurostar has stopped running trains to Disneyland Paris, as well as its former seasonal direct service to southern France. Within the UK, Eurostar has also abandoned stations at Ebbsfleet and Ashford in Kent.

A new entrant would face formidable hurdles, both in finding capacity at London’s St Pancras and Paris’s Gare du Nord stations, and obtaining trains that pass the Channel Tunnel’s rigorous safety requirements.

One industry executive said the group was just one of several holding “live” discussions about entering the market. Spanish rail operator Renfe indicated its interest in a service between London and Paris in 2021 but has yet to lay out any concrete plans.

Deutsche Bahn, the German national rail operator, abandoned high-profile plans to enter the market amid frustration about the difficulty of obtaining the required technical clearances.

Border delays would have to be fixed through new technology before it would be feasible to add an extra operator, the industry executive added.

The Cosmen family, which sold its Madrid bus company to National Express in 2005, is the biggest shareholder in Mobico.

The UK group operates in 11 countries, including bus and coach services in Spain, as well as rail services in Germany. It is best known for its National Express bus and coach services in the UK, but derives the majority of its revenue internationally.
Source: https://www.ft.com/content/aafcf10b-a4b1-42a4-95b7-df2e76775d76
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,058
Location
Yorks
Perhaps they could run into Waterloo ? They presumably wouldn't need all of the former Eurostar platforms.
 

Top