Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[PHILIPE]

It has always seemed strange that the Sensed insist on having direct trains between Holyhead and Cardiff, where it seems to be a much shorter route by road.

There have been long standing routes linking North Wales with the North West of England, the West Midlands, and London. The Cambrian and Aberystwyth linking with the West Midlands and London, and South Wales with Somerset, the West Midlands, and London.

I have never met anybody who does a daily trip between Holyhead and Cardiff via Chester, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Hereford, and Newport.

Vanity project sums it up.

 

[craigybagel]

Have you not seen the class 197 topic? The 197s have already turned out to be terrible (link to said topic: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw.182501/page-21#post-4714341).

I hope COVID doesn't put a stop to the mark 4 plans.

Yes, a fleet of trains that hasn't even been built yet is some how "already terrible".....

It has always seemed strange that the Sensed insist on having direct trains between Holyhead and Cardiff, where it seems to be a much shorter route by road.

There have been long standing routes linking North Wales with the North West of England, the West Midlands, and London. The Cambrian and Aberystwyth linking with the West Midlands and London, and South Wales with Somerset, the West Midlands, and London.

I have never met anybody who does a daily trip between Holyhead and Cardiff via Chester, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Hereford, and Newport.

There are several people who make the trip regularly - they tend to have the letters "AM" after their name.

Being serious though it is true that it is a very limited market. The Welsh government are hoping that with improved transport links they can change that and increase business within Wales rather then seeing it to towards England instead.

 

[DB]

Being serious though it is true that it is a very limited market. The Welsh government are hoping that with improved transport links they can change that and increase business within Wales rather then seeing it to towards England instead.

Really not sure how that's a realistic aspiration though, when from the towns on the North Wales coast it's far easier/quicker to get to Chester, Liverpool and even Manchester that it is to Cardiff.

 

[CW2]

From a Welsh perspective, it would be strange to have various express services from North Wales to London Euston through the day, but nothing of a comparable quality linking North Wales and the Welsh capital.
These services also link various intermediate markets too - it's not all about travel to Cardiff.

 

[59CosG95]

From a Welsh perspective, it would be strange to have various express services from North Wales to London Euston through the day, but nothing of a comparable quality linking North Wales and the Welsh capital.
These services also link various intermediate markets too - it's not all about travel to Cardiff.

It also means that stock is utilised more effectively, rather than turning back at Shrewsbury/Chester/Hereford or any major station between Cardiff Central & Holyhead, and occupying precious platform capacity.
Granted, the WAG's route isn't as congested as Birmingham New St or the Castlefield Corridor, but the rule of thumb still applies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, a fleet of trains that hasn't even been built yet is some how "already terrible".....

We already know what the Class 195s are like (fairly rubbish, TBH - little more than a reasonably competent Class 150 replacement). The 197 is the same train with an end gangway and worse seats in a worse layout. Doesn't bode well, does it?

 

[37424]

Vanity project sums it up.

Indeed I would have thought that 3x4 Car 197's with some catering facilities would have been a better more cost effective long term option, as for the 197's being rubbish based on the 195's I don't agree with that at all.

 

[DB]

We already know what the Class 195s are like (fairly rubbish, TBH - little more than a reasonably competent Class 150 replacement). The 197 is the same train with an end gangway and worse seats in a worse layout. Doesn't bode well, does it?

I think your view of the 195s is a bit harsh. Granted, they aren't the greatest units out there (170s and 185s are better, among others) - but there is a lot worse and they are a massive improvement over 150s.

 

[supervc-10]

It has always seemed strange that the Sensed insist on having direct trains between Holyhead and Cardiff, where it seems to be a much shorter route by road.

That ignores the number one advantage that rail has over road- you can do something else whilst travelling. If you're travelling to Cardiff from Holyhead, then having the ability to work on the train can be a huge advantage to driving.

The train is also very comparable to the times by car. There are no direct trains Holyhead-Cardiff tomorrow, but the quickest service takes 5 hours 8 mins, with a change in Shrewsbury, which adds roughly half an hour. If it was a through train, knocking half an hour off that time takes it quicker than the time to drive, going by Google Maps. The distance may be shorter going by road, but it's not an easy drive. Again going by timings from Google Maps, it's not that much slower to basically follow the train's route- going along the coast to Chester, down to Shrewsbury, and then onto the M54>M6>M5>M4. Many more miles, 10 minutes longer journey, due to the faster roads.

 

[arfortune]

Being serious though it is true that it is a very limited market. The Welsh government are hoping that with improved transport links they can change that and increase business within Wales rather then seeing it to towards England instead.

Wales' transport issues are the opposite to the UK in that East West links tend to be better in Wales (purely as the important centres and markets are Cardiff/Bristol, Birmingham and Manchester/Liverpool) as opposed to North South. The full route is a limited market and there's an aspect of having a premium service because we can. It's best to think of it as a serving a series of markets - Cardiff to Hereford/Abergavenny and then North Wales towns and it's also an opportunity to use and showcase local products and suppliers.

 

[Meole]

Do Eastern Airways still offer competition ?

 

[arfortune]

Do Eastern Airways still offer competition ?

The flights are currently suspended until January I believe but yes they'll still be running.

 

[Envoy]

I can see the point that the Welsh Parliament (this is the fourth name change) have a desire to unite Wales. Of course, this is difficult as the Capital is down in the south east - rather like London is in the SE of the UK. Added tor this is the fact that Wales is mountainous and the main flows tend to be west > east rather than north south through the more sparsely populated highlands.

Regarding trains between Holyhead & Cardiff: of course most people are not travelling end to end but if it serves as a link say between Chester and Hereford with English people making it a viable service, then all for the good. It also means that Wrexham and Chester are within day tripping distance of Cardiff and vice versa - though not sure how many tourists would go to Wrexham! The fact that these trains have a First Class restaurant car on a scenic route, would surely also favour up market tourist traffic using these trains?

Mention has been made of travelling by road between north Wales & Cardiff via The Midlands. That is quite a long way round and the motorways often jam up in the Birmingham area. Of course, people could use the main north > south route in Wales - the A470 - but that is very winding through the mountains. On the one fast dual section between Merthyr & Cardiff, the Welsh Parliament have imposed 50 mph limits in the Taff valley to reduce pollution = just what you need when you are driving the length of Wales! However, they think it is OK to subsidise flights between Cardiff & Valley (Anglesey).

2 photos of the A470:>

 

[Rhydgaled]

Regarding trains between Holyhead & Cardiff: of course most people are not travelling end to end but if it serves as a link say between Chester and Hereford with English people making it a viable service, then all for the good. It also means that Wrexham and Chester are within day tripping distance of Cardiff and vice versa - though not sure how many tourists would go to Wrexham!

An hourly/2-hourly Chester-Cardiff service would also provide for Chester/Wrexham to Cardiff trips and allow for Holyhead services to run through to Crewe/Liverpool/Manchester rather than reversing at Chester. The biggest lost if you did that instead of Holyhead-Cardiff would be through journies between Wrexham and the north Wales coast.

The fact that these trains have a First Class restaurant car on a scenic route, would surely also favour up market tourist traffic using these trains?

It would, if it ran in the middle of the day, in both directions and at weekends. The deployment of two mark 4 diagrams in place of the previous single mark 3 diagram will address the first two issues but are they planning to use the mark 4s at weekends?

 

[Bob Price]

I have never met anybody who does a daily trip between Holyhead and Cardiff via Chester, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Hereford, and Newport.

Of course not. They would use the WG subsidised plane from Cardiff to Anglesey.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Of course not. They would use the WG subsidised plane from Cardiff to Anglesey.

I have just gone through a few of the latest posts and it seems that people are more keen on pushing their political points than discussing the subject of the thread.

 

[DB]

I have just gone through a few of the latest posts and it seems that people are more keen on pushing their political points than discussing the subject of the thread.

How many people actually use the service for the full Holyhead-Cardiff? Or even from any of the N Wales stations to Cardiff? I would hazard a guess that it's not many given how long it takes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've never seen "Gerald" more than half full southbound, but there's a big turnover of commuters at Chester and somewhat less at Shrewsbury. Quiet after that.
Northbound it is full from Cardiff (peak time), but drops off significantly north of Hereford.
Never more than a handful for the restaurant, topped up by visits from the proletariat in standard.
Similar to the DMUs really, which do have local peaks at certain times of day.
There are certainly north-south public sector passengers on the train (eg NHS, education, local government staff etc), typically from Bangor and Wrexham.
Never seen AMs or MSs or whatever they call themselves this week.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Never seen AMs or MSs or whatever they call themselves this week.

Marginally off topic here, but AMs/MSs can only claim for standard class travel (like most of us on here who travel either regularly or occasionally for work), so any who do use the restaurant are paying for it out of their pocket.

It's widely been commented on this forum and elsewhere that the train was created for North Wales politicians, but it really wasn't and the trains especially the northbound don't suit the times that Plenary and committees sit.

How many people actually use the service for the full Holyhead-Cardiff? Or even from any of the N Wales stations to Cardiff? I would hazard a guess that it's not many given how long it takes.

I have no figures but my gut instinct says that Manchester and Liverpool are destinations that are more in demand than Cardiff for those in North Wales.

However North to South trains do serve a purpose even if people don't travel the whole length of the route.

 

[craigybagel]

I have just gone through a few of the latest posts and it seems that people are more keen on pushing their political points than discussing the subject of the thread.

There's a pretry strong argument that the train exists for political reasons - in that if it wasn't for the intervention of the Welsh Government it's hard to see it existing. Therefore it's pretty hard to avoid politics altogether in this thread. And talking about how people in North Wales tend to gravitate more towards North West England rather then Cardiff is hardly a criticism of Wales or its government - it's just fact!

 

[Scottish-Exile]

I took up my new role in Swansea in January, living in digs, as my home is in North Wales just a few miles from Flint.

I had planned to use this service out on a Monday and return on a Friday and was looking forward to it. Then of course we had the storms, then my wife was self isolating at home and then there was lockdown so I spent some 3 months or so unable to get home.

I now get home every 2nd or 3rd weekend driving, as to drive up & down every weekend was just too tiring, and isn't the best of roads. I positively loath the Llandrindod Wells - Newtown stretch.

If the Gerald was running then for sure I would get home every weekend despite the cost, and as has been pointed out, the ability to work on the train would have been a bonus.

 

[craigybagel]

We already know what the Class 195s are like (fairly rubbish, TBH - little more than a reasonably competent Class 150 replacement). The 197 is the same train with an end gangway and worse seats in a worse layout. Doesn't bode well, does it?

That's matter of opinion. Hopefully as the 197s aren't the first fleet in this family off the production line some of the 195s issues will have been dealt with. I'm also not sure how exactly the seats and the layout are going to be worse?

And in any case, it gets extremely tiring seeing the same posters making the same complaints about a fleet when, again for emphasis, it hasn't been built yet. It's hardly fair to decry them until we actually see them for real.

In any case, other then enthusiasts, or those specifically traveling for the enhanced catering, I doubt the number of people specifically choosing to travel on the MKIV sets rather then CAFs will be significant in any way. The vast majority of people really don't care.

 

[Speed43125]

That's matter of opinion. Hopefully as the 197s aren't the first fleet in this family off the production line some of the 195s issues will have been dealt with. I'm also not sure how exactly the seats and the layout are going to be worse?

And in any case, it gets extremely tiring seeing the same posters making the same complaints about a fleet when, again for emphasis, it hasn't been built yet. It's hardly fair to decry them until we actually see them for real, that enthusiasts seem to notice more.

In any case, other then enthusiasts, or those specifically traveling for the enhanced catering, I doubt the number of people specifically choosing to travel on the MKIV sets rather then CAFs will be significant in any way. The vast majority of people really don't care.

I think the biggest complaint will be the toilet situation. A grand total of one toilet per 2 car train is hardly ideal, and is imo most likely to be commented on, rather than the cheaper window arrangement, or lack of armrests.

But otherwise, the most savvy group, in my experience, on train types (other than enthusiasts) are commuters, and I am assuming that the Mk.IVs will not be catering for any significant flow of them.

I think few people ever think "I'm getting bum ache, what an awful class of train, if only I'd gotten that other one with the loud diesel on the front!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think few people ever think "I'm getting bum ache, what an awful class of train, if only I'd gotten that other one with the loud diesel on the front!"

Maybe not in those words, but I think the general public do know what a "proper train" looks like, and it doesn't look like a 2-car DMU.

By contrast, the Fainsa Sophia seat seems (a bit like the IC70) to be somewhat Marmite.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Maybe not in those words, but I think the general public do know what a "proper train" looks like, and it doesn't look like a 2-car DMU.

By contrast, the Fainsa Sophia seat seems (a bit like the IC70) to be somewhat Marmite.

I disagree. In my experience they don’t know or care.

 

[Darandio]

I think the biggest complaint will be the toilet situation. A grand total of one toilet per 2 car train is hardly ideal, and is imo most likely to be commented on, rather than the cheaper window arrangement, or lack of armrests.

But how is that any different to pretty much everything that has gone before it?

 

[Speed43125]

But how is that any different to pretty much everything that has gone before it?

158s and 175s each have 2 toilets in two car trains.

 

[Caaardiff]

I agree that the potential of the North-South Loco services isn't anywhere near utilised to the potential, and is if anything another WG vanity project. I'm surprised WG kept funding Gerald with the Valley - Cardiff Airport costing over £1m a year in subsidies. In a time when all governments should be cutting back, it should be either or. The flight provides decent times for the AM's.
Gerald in itself is as people have said, more of a commuter train for many and the loco provides the capacity needed for peak times.
In contrast the 0730 (ish) Chester - Manchester loco is often rammed. I've seen it when just one coach is locked out of use for whatever reason and people have been standing. What TfW has needed before, and probably need in the future after this covid business, is capacity. The locos are ideal for this, with the north wales loco being pretty well utilised to/from Manchester, but the North-South not utilised in the best way.
Slightly off topic but in many discussions people often talk about 230's and 769's replacing pacers and there being a mismatch between units introduced against those being replaced, but it's often forgotten about that the locos will free up at least 3 units, possibly more if 175's/158's are doubled up to match the loco capacity.

 

[Envoy]

I took up my new role in Swansea in January, living in digs, as my home is in North Wales just a few miles from Flint.

I had planned to use this service out on a Monday and return on a Friday and was looking forward to it. Then of course we had the storms, then my wife was self isolating at home and then there was lockdown so I spent some 3 months or so unable to get home.

I now get home every 2nd or 3rd weekend driving, as to drive up & down every weekend was just too tiring, and isn't the best of roads. I positively loath the Llandrindod Wells - Newtown stretch.

If the Gerald was running then for sure I would get home every weekend despite the cost, and as has been pointed out, the ability to work on the train would have been a bonus.

At least you now have the recently opened Newtown by-pass. If you want to avoid all those horrible bends on the A483 try heading W from Newtown to Caersws & then take A470 via Llangurig - even though it is a bit longer. When you reach Newbridge-on-Wye, it is possible to take the B4358 to Beulah and the A483 southward. Of course, you also could continue via Builth to Brecon and use the A4059 from the Beacons to reach the expressway down the Vale of Neath (A465).

I think that you will find that the rail fare can be reduced by buying a separate ticket from Shrewsbury to Swansea via the Heart of Wales Line - when it re-opens. It is however slow going and at present has Sprinters (not advised). However, in a couple of years, Class 170’s will enter service on this route giving a better experience.

 

[craigybagel]

I agree that the potential of the North-South Loco services isn't anywhere near utilised to the potential, and is if anything another WG vanity project. I'm surprised WG kept funding Gerald with the Valley - Cardiff Airport costing over £1m a year in subsidies. In a time when all governments should be cutting back, it should be either or. The flight provides decent times for the AM's.
Gerald in itself is as people have said, more of a commuter train for many and the loco provides the capacity needed for peak times.
In contrast the 0730 (ish) Chester - Manchester loco is often rammed. I've seen it when just one coach is locked out of use for whatever reason and people have been standing. What TfW has needed before, and probably need in the future after this covid business, is capacity. The locos are ideal for this, with the north wales loco being pretty well utilised to/from Manchester, but the North-South not utilised in the best way.
Slightly off topic but in many discussions people often talk about 230's and 769's replacing pacers and there being a mismatch between units introduced against those being replaced, but it's often forgotten about that the locos will free up at least 3 units, possibly more if 175's/158's are doubled up to match the loco capacity.

The locos won't really free up any units as the formerly loco operated North Wales - Manchester diagram will be remaining as units.

The extra capacity will come from the fact that 180 class 197 cars are replacing 48 class 158, 70 class 175 cars and 4 cars worth of 150/153 from the Crewe - Chester and Blaneau Ffestiniog routes.