Examples of crew “looking down” on other crew

[Ashley Hill]

Paddington is similar,London men right by the door and Bristol right by the kitchen. Catering crew and Swansea guards in the comfy seats.

 

[irish_rail]

Paddington is similar,London men right by the door and Bristol right by the kitchen. Catering crew and Swansea guards in the comfy seats.

Don't forget Plymouth in the comfy seats bit too.!

 

[380101]

Glasgow Central is like that. As a "foreign" driver I once had the misfortune to have an unscheduled break in there. I was glared at, scowled at and eventually told in no uncertain terms that I was sitting "Jim's" seat. Then quizzed about which depot I belonged to. Bunch of weirdos.

Not really like that now since Covid. Staff from all grades/depots tend to just sit wherever now, which is a bit of progress. We even get Yoker drivers upstairs on their PNBs more often.

 

[185]

Northern, Leeds messroom top table...

In 2001 it was (allegedly) removed at 6am by the lower link spare drivers & guards and placed in the telly room.

Cue many miserable old **** kicking off when they came in. Took them a while to find it.

 

[507 001]

Isnt there a culture of drivers treating guards as 2nd class citizens???

Have you ever heard the rhyme?

“the guard is a man, who sits in a van, a van at the back of the train.

The man at the front, thinks the guard is a ****, and the guard thinks exactly the same”

Yes when working for TW Metro, when your up front driving/assessing or colleagues simply riding in the front seats.
You quickly begin to notice that mainline drivers for Northern, Grand Central, Freight FOCs. Some of them will not wave back at you, its really a 50/50 chance if they even acknowledge you.

But the most concerning thing is some of the Network Rail Track workers/pway staff sometimes don't even acknowledge warning horns from Metro Services, when working on or near the line.
I like to treat all my railway brothers and sisters with the same respect, same team at the end of the day railway family.

I’ve found most drivers (and often guards) around the Manchester area will wave back at us (Metrolink). I’ve even had conversations through our respective windows at Navigation Rd.

On your latter point, if I come across somebody who isn’t acknowledging the brake is going in and they’re getting a talking to.

 

[route101]

Happens in most workplaces, especially if you are new. I started a job recently and when I enter the office, I barely get an acknowledgement when I walk in even if I say hi or good morning. I see it with the buses too.

 

[6Gman]

Isnt there a culture of drivers treating guards as 2nd class citizens???

The guard is a man,
Who rides in a van
At the back of a long long train.
The man at the front
Thinks the guard is a scoundrel
And the guard thinks the driver's the same


First heard that circa 1977.

I may be misremembering one word.


(I see @507 001 beat me to it)

 

[LowLevel]

Isnt there a culture of drivers treating guards as 2nd class citizens???

Not where I am - traincrew are traincrew. Guards and drivers have always socialised, even with managers and supervisors for that matter

 

[Ashley Hill]

The guard is a man,
Who rides in a van
At the back of a long long train.
The man at the front
Thinks the guard is a scoundrel
And the guard thinks the driver's the same


First heard that circa 1977.

I may be misremembering one word.


(I see @507 001 beat me to it)

Post 1988 version.
The guard was the man
Who sat in the van
Down at the rear of the train.
Now he’s the **** who’s sat up the front
The job’ll never be the same.

 

[CFRAIL]

I did experience being told I was sat at the drivers table once...

 

[baz962]

Yes when working for TW Metro, when your up front driving/assessing or colleagues simply riding in the front seats.
You quickly begin to notice that mainline drivers for Northern, Grand Central, Freight FOCs. Some of them will not wave back at you, its really a 50/50 chance if they even acknowledge you.

But the most concerning thing is some of the Network Rail Track workers/pway staff sometimes don't even acknowledge warning horns from Metro Services, when working on or near the line.
I like to treat all my railway brothers and sisters with the same respect, same team at the end of the day railway family.

To be fair, some p way don't acknowledge you wizzing past at 125 .
Even worse they are sometimes just behind a bridge or in the undergrowth or an electrical cabinet and you see them at the last moment.

 

[GC class B1]

It may be a bit off topic, but when working for Railcorp in Sydney Australia, and discussing the Waterfall accident I learned that the enquiry criticised the guard for not making an Emergency brake application when he realised the train was overspeeding. The defence from the guard was along the lines that he did not feel able to challenge the driver because the driver was superior in status.

 

[pdq]

This is quite a depressing thread to read as a mere rail user. Friendly banter and friendly rivalry between different areas of the business are healthy. Some of what I've read here is really pretty toxic. There is no reason - historically or otherwise - for anyone to be treated with disrespect at work. To me, it makes the rail industry look dated at best, in its attitudes to basic human decency.

 

[dmncf]

I assume that those who persist in this behaviour are minority, and hopefully a shrinking minority.
This behaviour reflects badly on the staff involved - in most workplaces people wouldn't contemplate being so rude to colleagues, recipients wouldn't accept it, and bystanders would call it out.
What's going wrong in this workplace to make people think that this behaviour won't be tackled?

 

[Ken H]

This is quite a depressing thread to read as a mere rail user. Friendly banter and friendly rivalry between different areas of the business are healthy. Some of what I've read here is really pretty toxic. There is no reason - historically or otherwise - for anyone to be treated with disrespect at work. To me, it makes the rail industry look dated at best, in its attitudes to basic human decency.

This^^. I have worked in environments for some years now where directors are addressed by forename. There is no 'rank' - people just do different jobs.

 

[Planesandtrain]

I'll add the German perspective, at Go Ahead drivers and Guards work together quite well, there are always going to be one or two drivers who think they are superior to the people working the rear end of the train but it's rare. Between operators, when we started operating in Bavaria DB Staff were very wary of us, but now we get on very well and help each other out. Most of us realize that the current system of privatization isn't ideal but we try and get the best out of what we have.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This is quite a depressing thread to read as a mere rail user. Friendly banter and friendly rivalry between different areas of the business are healthy. Some of what I've read here is really pretty toxic. There is no reason - historically or otherwise - for anyone to be treated with disrespect at work. To me, it makes the rail industry look dated at best, in its attitudes to basic human decency.

It is dated though, the attitudes over who sits where in mess rooms is akin to the behaviours we see in the House of Commons which are also outdated.

 

[LowLevel]

I assume that those who persist in this behaviour are minority, and hopefully a shrinking minority.
This behaviour reflects badly on the staff involved - in most workplaces people wouldn't contemplate being so rude to colleagues, recipients wouldn't accept it, and bystanders would call it out.
What's going wrong in this workplace to make people think that this behaviour won't be tackled?

Very much so. It's just historical hierarchy and dates back to when the railway was quite military style in it's set up. It took a long time to change, probably because of the length of service many people do compared to most workplaces.

Nowadays with a few exceptions it is quite different, if only because you spend far less time sat in mess rooms than the old days.

10 years ago I was still working with people employed in the 60s and 70s.

This^^. I have worked in environments for some years now where directors are addressed by forename. There is no 'rank' - people just do different jobs.

That's the same on the railway. For one, they generally wear namebadges

I'll quite happily sit and have a chat with heads of function or directors.

 

[Llanigraham]

Signallers perception:
We were the entry box into a Line Block one Sunday, with a ballast 66 stopped outside the Box. Knowing they were going to be there for some time I invited the lady driver into the Box to use the facilities and have a brew. She was amazed and said that no-one had ever done that in all the years she'd been driving.
And she then signed the TRB!

 

[LowLevel]

Signallers perception:
We were the entry box into a Line Block one Sunday, with a ballast 66 stopped outside the Box. Knowing they were going to be there for some time I invited the lady driver into the Box to use the facilities and have a brew. She was amazed and said that no-one had ever done that in all the years she'd been driving.
And she then signed the TRB!

I must've been lucky - I've been stuck in various locations over the years with a mechanical box and couldn't ask for more from the bobbies - one day we were held for hours because of a complicated fatality and the chap in the box made all of us, including my passengers, a cuppa.

 

[pdq]

It is dated though, the attitudes over who sits where in mess rooms is akin to the behaviours we see in the House of Commons which are also outdated.

Whilst dated, in many ways it's not comparable. In many of the railway examples above, we see how people are behaving when not on duty. In contrast, what we see in the televised Commons is MPs in their place of work where the expectation is for there to be a degree of acting and false bravura: the HoC is by definition a combative, debating arena where people of different opinions are trying to catch each other out and put forward conflicting points of view. In addition to the necessary act, emotions can run high where people's ethics and beliefs are being challenged.

Head off to the Commons bar later when the MPs are not 'on duty' - the equivalent of the messroom - and you're likely to see the MPs mingling across party lines. They may not agree with each other politically, but in general (with exceptions) there is respect across the House and an acknowledgement that the animosity in the Chamber is part of the role.

That doesn't mean that the behaviour doesn't become churlish or childish even, or that it's seen as acceptable, but it's largely an act.

 

[Economist]

I don't look down on any specific grade but I was accused of doing so recently because I didn't want to spend my tea break with people who think it's acceptable to boil eggs and dried fish in a kettle whilst shouting at each other over the noise of the television (and each other). There was a sign posted in the kitchen area of the location in question during Covid which read "no spitting in the sink".

 

[D6130]

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, on my first road learning trip to Salisbury - for working the Brighton-Cardiff service - I entered the old messroom on the island platform to be confronted by two elderly-looking drivers and two equally elderly-looking guards, all of whom were immaculately-uniformed with caps, waistcoats and ties and we're staring at me malevolently while slowly drinking their tea. Eyeing the teapot in the middle of the table, I jokingly said to them "I hope you've left enough for me!". They looked at each other and then looked at me as though I were something they'd just wiped off the soles of their shoes. At this point, a younger and more casually-uniformed guy sitting further up the room called out "Come and sit with us mate! Us Southern men talk to each other and share our tea! You don't want to be sitting at the Great Western table with those miserable bu**ers from Bristol!" Luckily things have changed a wee bit now with the influx of 'outsiders' into the industry.

 

[Lost property]

Happens in most workplaces, especially if you are new. I started a job recently and when I enter the office, I barely get an acknowledgement when I walk in even if I say hi or good morning. I see it with the buses too.

Interesting thread...rest assured the railways are not unique with the examples mentioned. Aviation is just as bad, or can be, depends on the operator and / or environment. Engineers are often prefaced by "only a "....but we come in useful for certifying aircraft. Many "memorable" experiences...flew into NCL as a spanner for a role change, the CC, in a hurry to board to get back to Palma, started boarding the pax before I'd finished..luckily Geordies have a sense of humour !...when I asked about my meal, which I was entitled to, told " I don't feed engineers ! "...calmly pointed out, that unless I get fed, this book ( Tech Log) doesn't get signed and the Cap't won't override me, so, here we stay

I felt it wise to decline the meal she later offered me. Ranted at by a CC member travelling standby, I had the higher priority, with the immortal words as this was a jump seat ride, "what would a mere engineer know about how an aircraft works and operates ! ".."ok, let's start at the radome then move back to the APU shall we..and everything inbetween "...last seen on the day "somewhat irate " on the airbridge..as the door closed.

As for the railways, a member of a certain heritage line openly remarked, to his admiring friends, " we do the driving, not the mugs down the back "....and he meant it. You would never get to drive on that line, no matter how qualified by time and experience, unless you were a member of this little gang.

 

[michael74]

From the perspective of a newbie Conductor at GWR Exeter St David's, I have not seen or felt any of this, guards and drivers all sit together , drivers are only too happy to help and advise, also a lot are ex Conductors or as previously mentioned from outside of the railway.

 

[43066]

The drivers have had numerous dust ups over work over the years (don't get me started on "you've started doing our local work but heaven forbid we work an Intercity train to London!" from a few years ago) but the guards are pretty serene I feel.

The fact this kind of stuff goes on in 2022 really boggles my brain, although it’s dying out. Drivers are worse for it, If we’re being honest we would probably all admit that guards tend to be more socially normal than drivers…

There’s an amusing story I’ve heard along the lines of a senior London man walking into the Notts messroom, looking at the top table of dog box drivers and asking “where is the intercity table?”, to be met with silence. Legend has it that a rule book flew past his head as he walked out of the room…

I always remind people when they start amping on about miserable local lot/miserable mainline that 1) my staff number starts with MML and 2) I sign more route miles with my 2 car thunder boxes than any of the Intercity depots so there, I work on the Great Eastern, East Coast, Midland and West Coast mainlines so who is mainline now!?

When you put it like that, that’s actually very good going. Only the western to check off and you’ve done all the main ones!

Everyone knows the premier "South End" depot is Kettering anyway....

Ahem. I think you’ll find it’s the TOCs premier metro depot.

Have you seen the state of what they drive? Somewhere between milk floats and corned beef cans (look at the angle of the front end and think about it and it will make sense) …

I've driven a HST up from Plymouth!

A four coach HST all the way to reading? Happy days!

Paddington is similar,London men right by the door and Bristol right by the kitchen. Catering crew and Swansea guards in the comfy seats.

London Victoria was about the worst I’ve encountered. Different tables for SE metro and mainline (and southeastern crew tend to be miserable, for good reason), then Southern metro and mainline. It wasn’t only the politics that were bad, with mice galore running about the place and don’t even think about visiting those disgusting toilets…

Vile place*.

I may be misremembering one word.

Does it sound a bit like “shunt”?

I'll add the German perspective, at Go Ahead drivers and Guards work together quite well, there are always going to be one or two drivers who think they are superior to the people working the rear end of the train but it's rare. Between operators, when we started operating in Bavaria DB Staff were very wary of us, but now we get on very well and help each other out. Most of us realize that the current system of privatization isn't ideal but we try and get the best out of what we have.

I think this also neatly sums things up on the UK railway! It’s generally a pretty friendly environment.

I don't look down on any specific grade but I was accused of doing so recently because I didn't want to spend my tea break with people who think it's acceptable to boil eggs and dried fish in a kettle whilst shouting at each other over the noise of the television (and each other). There was a sign posted in the kitchen area of the location in question during Covid which read "no spitting in the sink".

*Victoria?

Actually, with that specific description, I bet it was Charing+…

Aviation is just as bad

It’s worse, or so I have it on good authority from friends doing various roles in the industry.

 

[507 001]

Does it sound a bit like “shunt”?

Indeed it does, A right Jeremy Hunt...

 

[Economist]

*Victoria?

Actually, with that specific description, I bet it was Charing+…

Spot on, though if it was the former I'd have mentioned the toilet seats and table politics. Both have great nearby food options, it's just a bit of a shame about some of the people.

Rumour has it, that at one depot, a fellow went to the toilet only to see a head sticking out of the top of the cubicle. Feet on the seats isn't restricted to the trains...

 

[Carlisle]

London Victoria was about the worst I’ve encountered. Different tables for SE metro and mainline (and southeastern crew tend to be miserable, for good reason), then Southern metro and mainline. It wasn’t only the politics that were bad, with mice galore running about the place

I’ve noticed mice running across the floor at Victoria’s Wetherspoons a few times so must be at least a station wide problem.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I’ve noticed mice running across the floor at Victoria’s Wetherspoons a few times so must be at least a station wide problem.

With their sticky carpets I’m surprised mice can run about in a Spoons
There’s mice at Paddington too!