Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[edwin_m]

Ha, having used the 'hub' once or twice myself - it's great if you want an insight into what a major UK airport looked like in 1973 - I'm not sure that there's a great deal of difference between the two definitions.

Does the "hub" still have chrome hubcaps then?

 

[Altnabreac]

I don't think that one's ever come up on here before! Do you have any particular reason for making the suggestion?

It was one of the fairly eccentric list of reopenings proposed a few years ago by Railfuture Scotland.

As Me123 outlines it is unlikely to be a goer.

Another of their odder suggestions was Oldmeldrum.

With a population of 2000 and the old station site built over it seems a totally bonkers suggestion at first.

But then you get to thinking: you can open a park and ride station on the edge of town; you can run an electrified half hourly service southwards with direct trains to Edinburgh and Glasgow by extending existing and proposed Inverurie terminators; you can act as a railhead for the non connected Banff and Buchan region.

And all this for the costs of just 5 miles of single track and a fairly simple station - call it £35m quid all in?

Almost certainly not going to happen either but perhaps less mad than some other schemes that get proposed, mainly because it would fit well with terminating services at Inverurie.

 

[marks87]

There's a proposal in today's Dundee Evening Telegraph from Railfuture Scotland that has some rather...ambitious plans for new and reopened lines and stations.

There's no online article yet but I attach a photo of the map.

Highlights are a reopening from a Stanley to Brechin, with stations at Stanley, Coupar Angus, Glamis and Brechin; (re?)-opening from Perth to Comrie, with stations at Inveralmond, Strathalmond, Methvin and Crieff; and a reopening from Perth to Edinburgh via Kinross.

I think the only proposals that will come close to getting off the ground are St Andrews, and the new station at Dundee Airport (Dundee West, for commuter traffic).

 

[najaB]

I think the only proposals that will come close to getting off the ground are St Andrews, and the new station at Dundee Airport (Dundee West, for commuter traffic).

Doubling some or all of Ladybank to Perth may well happen.

 

[47271]

Kinross isn't the most far fetched part of this, a high(ish) speed route joining the existing Perth-Dundee line around St Madoes has cropped up on here quite a bit and would have huge strategic value.

Strathmore main line, or just a Brechin branch, restoration surfaces from time to time on here but is pretty left field. As for Crieff and Comrie, that's a new one on me. Perth would need to become a major inbound commuting centre, and it certainly isn't that at the moment.

I'm not that big a fan of St Andrews, there are projects far more deserving.

Of all of those on the list, and in the absence of Kinross: for the love of God sort out the hopeless Ladybank-Hilton Jn line, speed up Edinburgh-Perth trains and give a service to Newburgh, Abernethy and Bridge of Earn. I know it's in the plan, but ASAP would be good...

 

[marks87]

TACTRAN are looking for ScotRail to commit to an hourly service at Invergowrie, before considering a plan to move it to be Dundee West.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/journeys-needed-dundee-west-rail-station-move/

MORE JOURNEYS NEEDED FOR DUNDEE WEST RAIL STATION MOVE

The relocation of a Dundee railway station is dependent on a more frequent train service, according to transport chiefs.

Eric Guthrie, partnership director of Tactran, was discussing the decision on whether to relocate Invergowrie Station to Dundee West, north of the A85 Riverside Avenue.

He said the move would be reliant on ScotRail delivering an hourly service through the station.

Mr Guthrie said: “We feel we need to produce more local commuter services and routes. Dundee West is part of the plan to enhance local rail services.

“A primary goal for Tactran is to enhance the commuter services on the Arbroath to Glasgow route.

“We’re working with ScotRail and Transport Scotland for additional and incremental improvements to boost services to Carnoustie, Broughty Ferry and Invergowrie — in particular an hourly service.”

They seem to be advocating Glasgow-Arbroath, but whatever happened to the Tay Estuary Rail Study which wanted an hourly Perth-Arbroath, via Invergowrie, (completely new) Dundee West, Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie?

 

[Altnabreac]

TACTRAN are looking for ScotRail to commit to an hourly service at Invergowrie, before considering a plan to move it to be Dundee West.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/journeys-needed-dundee-west-rail-station-move/



They seem to be advocating Glasgow-Arbroath, but whatever happened to the Tay Estuary Rail Study which wanted an hourly Perth-Arbroath, via Invergowrie, (completely new) Dundee West, Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie?

Tay Estuary Rail Study had a BCR of only around 0.9 so it wasn't the strongest scheme.

The current proposal came out of the decision earlier this year to keep more Class 170s in Scotland to run extra services.
http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/...ervices-and-20000-more-seats-scots-passengers

The benefits from TERS were limited to:

• Hourly service at Perth- Arbroath stations
• Faster Dundee - Aberdeen services

By running a Glasgow - Arbroath service you get that as well with additional benefits of:

• More frequent Stirling - Glasgow fast service.
• Faster Dunblane / Bridge of Allan - Glasgow service.
• Hourly stops at Gleneagles instead of current irregular service
• Faster Glasgow - Dundee services.

So I would expect the business case to be better than just for TERS.

 

[route:oxford]

As for Crieff and Comrie, that's a new one on me. Perth would need to become a major inbound commuting centre, and it certainly isn't that at the moment.

I never quite followed the logic of the closure of Gleneagles-Crieff or the similar Dunblane to Callander.

Neither had overly complex infrastructure requirements, could have operated as a "one train in steam" siding, and both had pretty poor road infrastructure.

Even now it's a miserable route between Braco and Crieff.

 

[najaB]

I never quite followed the logic of the closure of Gleneagles-Crieff or the similar Dunblane to Callander.

Neither had overly complex infrastructure requirements, could have operated as a "one train in steam" siding, and both had pretty poor road infrastructure.

Even now it's a miserable route between Braco and Crieff.

I am probably wrong, but it may well be because it's hard to justify (politically) keeping a minor branch line open while closing a nearby trunk route.

 

[Clansman]

If Perth were to win 'City of Culture' in 2021, could the investment in the City Centre have an impact on the Railway infrastructure around in future? If the Crieff to Perth rail line depends on the patronage of Perth itself (not that I'm suggesting that's the sole case) then couldn't Perth winning the award open a few doors for improvement within the local transport in the context of the railway?

I've no idea how the 'City of Culture' award affects the county, but as someone who resides in the area, there's a lot of hype about the potential impact it would have on the City and local communities.

Disclaimer: In no way shape or form am I suggesting that Perth winning in 2021 will see proposals left right and centre for the Crieff line to be reopened

 

[Altnabreac]

I never quite followed the logic of the closure of Gleneagles-Crieff or the similar Dunblane to Callander.

Neither had overly complex infrastructure requirements, could have operated as a "one train in steam" siding, and both had pretty poor road infrastructure.

Even now it's a miserable route between Braco and Crieff.

Crieff - population 7,000
Callander - population 3,000

Not big enough towns to sustain a rail service, even if they were a bit bigger they are not close enough to a big city (Glasgow or Edinburgh) to generate significant rail demand.

 

[JohnR]

The problem I've had is that Invergowrie and Dundee West (I prefer to call it Ninewells, because it is sited at the former junction of that name, and the nearby Hospital would be the biggest destination for passengers) are really serving two different markets.

Invergowrie is for local people from Invergowrie/Longforgan to get access to the rail network for journeys, a large proportion of which would be local to Perth/Dundee.

Ninewells station is really about providing better access to staff/visitors to the Hospital (6,000+ staff, 1500 patients and over 2000 visitors daily) along with staff working at the Technology park. The number of people who would use it for the airport is really very small in comparison.

In effect what is needed is both stations - with a local service stopping at both conencting them to Perth, Dundee and Angus and some longer distance services stopping at Ninewells.

 

[backontrack]

The problem I've had is that Invergowrie and Dundee West (I prefer to call it Ninewells, because it is sited at the former junction of that name, and the nearby Hospital would be the biggest destination for passengers) are really serving two different markets.

Invergowrie is for local people from Invergowrie/Longforgan to get access to the rail network for journeys, a large proportion of which would be local to Perth/Dundee.

Ninewells station is really about providing better access to staff/visitors to the Hospital (6,000+ staff, 1500 patients and over 2000 visitors daily) along with staff working at the Technology park. The number of people who would use it for the airport is really very small in comparison.

In effect what is needed is both stations - with a local service stopping at both conencting them to Perth, Dundee and Angus and some longer distance services stopping at Ninewells.

Errol has also been suggested for reopening, so, if it did, the stopping service would presumable call there as well.

 

[JohnR]

I think Errol would only happen if the large scale housebuilding happened that is often proposed, but yes, in principle. And again for the same reasons - most of its passengers will be looking for local journeys to Dundee and Perth.

 

[backontrack]

I think this would be an accurate map of what Scotland's rail network will look like in about a decade (terrible photoshop skills mine, with new stations in orange).

Was tempted to put St Andrews on, but I think that may well take a bit longer.

 

[Mordac]

I think this would be an accurate map of what Scotland's rail network will look like in about a decade (terrible photoshop skills mine, with new stations in orange).

Was tempted to put St Andrews on, but I think that may well take a bit longer.
View attachment 29145

I'm sure St. Andrews will be ready before the Stranraer to Belfast tunnel

Unless the DUP really drives a hard bargain for supporting the government in parliament

 

[backontrack]

I'm sure St. Andrews will be ready before the Stranraer to Belfast tunnel

Unless the DUP really drives a hard bargain for supporting the government in parliament

That was already on the map

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think this would be an accurate map of what Scotland's rail network will look like in about a decade (terrible photoshop skills mine, with new stations in orange).

Pretty good. But I think you forgot the new Dumfries-Stranraer high speed link

 

[backontrack]

Pretty good. But I think you forgot the new Dumfries-Stranraer high speed link

Thanks! But how silly of me

TBH, Eastriggs and Reston probably won't be on there that soon, and one of Hawick/Kinross won't quite be all there yet. On that map, the Perth-Edinburgh line is only open from Edinburgh to Kinross, with the rest under construction.

A map summary:

-Lines to Ellon, Hawick, Kilmacolm, Kincardine, and Levenmouth all open
-New stations at Edinburgh Gateway, Winchburgh, Robroyston, Dalcross, Eastriggs, Reston, Newburgh and Abernethy, Kintore, Beechwood, Evanton, Halkirk, Thornhill, Dunragit, Beattock, East Linton, Halbeath, Kelty, Dalcross, Bucksburn, Newtonhill, Melrose, Pitmedden, Newmachar, Wormit, St Boswells, Denholm, Bridge of Weir, Houston, Linwood, Blackford, Bannockburn and Clackmannan
-Kildonan, Altnabreac, Scotscalder and Culrain piloting a special 'prior notice' scheme (or closed)
-Georgemas Chord in place (OK, perhaps wishful thinking, but you'd hope that this is in place by then)

Renfrew reopening and Glasgow Crossrail will be an ongoing project. Bridge of Allan will have been moved. Bridge of Earn/Oudenarde would follow the direct Perth reopening. St Andrews and Longannet reopening would have to wait until that line was opened, increasing capacity. Errol would also probably not be open by then, but would soon follow - hopefully timed to coincide with an Oudenarde-St Madoes link.

 

[clc]

You missed out Barrhead South which is scheduled to open in 2019.

 

[Altnabreac]

I think this would be an accurate map of what Scotland's rail network will look like in about a decade (terrible photoshop skills mine, with new stations in orange).

Was tempted to put St Andrews on, but I think that may well take a bit longer.
View attachment 29148

You either have Kintore in the wrong place or a mystery station between Inverurie and Insch.

Also missing Dalcross, Winchburgh and Robroyston all of which have funding and specific clauses in the current Franchise agreement making them much more likely to happen.

The no hopers on your list are Dunragit (dropped by Swestran from their long list owing to hopeless business case), Culloden (no viable site owing to gradients in excess of that permitted for new stations), Blackford (terrible business case not being promoted by Perth & Kinross or Tactran) and Beattock (uses too much capacity on busy line).

Beyond that probably only 25% of the other stations will happen but I won't bet on which ones.

 

[oldman]

Personally I'd swap them (nearly) all for the Edinburgh metro.

 

[kylemore]

I think this would be an accurate map of what Scotland's rail network will look like in about a decade (terrible photoshop skills mine, with new stations in orange).

Was tempted to put St Andrews on, but I think that may well take a bit longer.
View attachment 29148

Nice map and a realistic assessment.

Mind you, your ferry routes to Northern Ireland need updating!

 

[Hackneyite]

What site is earmarked for Winchburgh? I'm assuming it's to the east of the tunnel.

 

[Altnabreac]

What site is earmarked for Winchburgh? I'm assuming it's to the east of the tunnel.

North of the tunnel as the cutting opens up.

You can see it on the masterplan here:
http://www.winchburghvillage.co.uk/map/

Station is in the area marked Z.

Awaiting electrification to reach Dunblane and Alloa as the faster acceleration of electric trains makes the additional stop easier to timetable.

Should open in Dec 2018 all being well.

 

[backontrack]

You either have Kintore in the wrong place or a mystery station between Inverurie and Insch.

Also missing Dalcross, Winchburgh and Robroyston all of which have funding and specific clauses in the current Franchise agreement making them much more likely to happen.

The no hopers on your list are Dunragit (dropped by Swestran from their long list owing to hopeless business case), Culloden (no viable site owing to gradients in excess of that permitted for new stations), Blackford (terrible business case not being promoted by Perth & Kinross or Tactran) and Beattock (uses too much capacity on busy line).

Beyond that probably only 25% of the other stations will happen but I won't bet on which ones.

Dalcross is there. Winchburgh and Robroyston I just forgot about. I still think that Dunragit will go ahead as the SNP will probably do it in order to show that they still care about the line. That station at Culloden is actually meant to be at Beechwood. Blackford will probably go ahead at the same time Bridge of Allan is moved. Beattock is less likely, but I'd hope that that happens - it now must be a SWESTRAN priority.

Kintore - yeah, I got that on the wrong side of Inverurie.

Reston and East Linton still look more likely than Beattock, but I don't have high hopes for those stops to come that soon, either. But I still think they might.

 

[Altnabreac]

Dalcross is there. Winchburgh and Robroyston I just forgot about. I still think that Dunragit will go ahead as the SNP will probably do it in order to show that they still care about the line. That station at Culloden is actually meant to be at Beechwood. Blackford will probably go ahead at the same time Bridge of Allan is moved. Beattock is less likely, but I'd hope that that happens - it now must be a SWESTRAN priority.

Kintore - yeah, I got that on the wrong side of Inverurie.

Reston and East Linton still look more likely than Beattock, but I don't have high hopes for those stops to come that soon, either. But I still think they might.

In order to happen a new station needs to have:

• Support from the local council
• Support from the Regional Transport Partnership
• Funding
• Political support at Holyrood
• A viable business case
• Transport Scotland support for extra stops to be inserted in franchise agreement
• Dft support for extra stops if in cross border services

They are listed in difficulty of achieving the support.

So any potential station that has not even got support from the local council (Dunragit, Blackford) will not be happening any time soon.

Equally stations that need DfT approval are unlikely to happen (Beattock).

Many of the others are unlikely to progress but at least have support from someone.

 

[backontrack]

In order to happen a new station needs to have:

• Support from the local council
• Support from the Regional Transport Partnership
• Funding
• Political support at Holyrood
• A viable business case
• Transport Scotland support for extra stops to be inserted in franchise agreement
• Dft support for extra stops if in cross border services

They are listed in difficulty of achieving the support.

So any potential station that has not even got support from the local council (Dunragit, Blackford) will not be happening any time soon.

Equally stations that need DfT approval are unlikely to happen (Beattock).

Many of the others are unlikely to progress but at least have support from someone.

But it is possible that support may be given in the timeline leading up to the map. That you can't deny.

 

[Altnabreac]

But it is possible that support may be given in the timeline leading up to the map. That you can't deny.

In my experience of the subject if you want a station to be open in 10 years time then it needs to at least have council and RTP support now.

Firstly you need the station to be identified in the Local Development Plan (done every five years or so). Then you need some housing to be assigned in the LDP as well to help generate capital funding, then you need to work with the developer(s) and land owner(s) to agree a section 75 agreement to part fund the station. Then you need to find the money (£50k or so) to fund the STAG appraisal. Then (if you have a positive business case) you need to approach Network Rail, Scotrail and Transport Scotland about the timetabling, franchise agreements, service alterations and long term funding of the services. Then you need to apply to Network Rail / Transport Scotland for match funding from the Scottish Stations Fund and hope all the money hasn't been given to another site. Then you need to wait while the house market is a bit flat so your developer doesn't want to stump up the cash until it improves a bit. Then Transport Scotland go a bit cold on it and don't respond promptly to your enquiries. Then a new franchise agreement is signed and your station is not included.

It may be that in ten years time some of these stations will be back at the beginning of that process but broadly any that are not at least part of the way down that timeline are unlikely to have come to fruition in ten years time.

 

[clc]

In order to happen a new station needs to have:

• Support from the local council
• Support from the Regional Transport Partnership
• Funding
• Political support at Holyrood
• A viable business case
• Transport Scotland support for extra stops to be inserted in franchise agreement
• Dft support for extra stops if in cross border services

They are listed in difficulty of achieving the support.

So any potential station that has not even got support from the local council (Dunragit, Blackford) will not be happening any time soon.

Equally stations that need DfT approval are unlikely to happen (Beattock).

Many of the others are unlikely to progress but at least have support from someone.

Barrhead South ticks most of these boxes with City Deal funding virtually guaranteed. It just needs Transport Scotland to agree the service alteration but I can't see that being a problem.

It might also accelerate Neilston going to 4tph.