I don't doubt this, the only question is if that will be the only route between Aberdeen and the south?My prediction is that trains will still be crossing a single line viaduct between Usan and Montrose in 20 years time!
I don't doubt this, the only question is if that will be the only route between Aberdeen and the south?My prediction is that trains will still be crossing a single line viaduct between Usan and Montrose in 20 years time!
And where did I say I'd be relegating Dundee to a regional stopping route? Was it on a regional stopping route before 1967? Or did it have express trains to both Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Sorry, I should've been clearer and said ALL trains will still be crossing a single line viaduct!I don't doubt this, the only question is if that will be the only route between Aberdeen and the south?
The Strathmore main line closed to through traffic in 1964. The latest timetable I have dates from 1953 an generally has trains timed 60 minutes from Stanley Jn to Kinnaber Jn with one 4 minute stop at Forfar, taking 117 minutes in total from leaving Perth to arriving Aberdeen.
In the bigger picture of train times between Edinburgh and Glasgow/Perth and Aberdeen, I suspect that the effect of the short section of single line between Usan and Montrose is pretty negligible.
In the bigger picture of train times between Edinburgh and Glasgow/Perth and Aberdeen, I suspect that the effect of the short section of single line between Usan and Montrose is pretty negligible.
That sounds about right for any service that has to wait for the single line section, perhaps a little more if there's disruption.I seem to recall that the potential time saving was around 2-3 minutes. Can't find the source for that at the moment though.
That sounds about right for any service that has to wait for the single line section, perhaps a little more if there's disruption.
I think that Prestonpans is large enough to warrant its own station (after all, the new Blindwells stop wouldn't be too much closer to Prestonpans than Wallyford is).One was about the potential of a Blindwells station (new town between Prestonpans and Longniddry) which I know has been mooted before - potentially as a replacement for Prestonpans.
The redoubling was never about time saving though (except in the minds of a fevered few politicians). Its about capacity. This section limits the capacity for trains from Aberdeen to go south. It limits expansion of freight services to Scotlands 3 largest city. And it causes delays when services are running late.I seem to recall that the potential time saving was around 2-3 minutes. Can't find the source for that at the moment though.
It's the logical conclusion. Why open up a new route that's faster if you're not going to send the express services that way?
I'm not even going to entertain an argument that tries to invoke pre-1967 as a valid comparison to today.
The two big problems are firstly that to get to the previous station a new bridge at the bypass would be needed and secondly fitting more trains into the section between Waverley and Longniddry given that priority seems to be given to Inter city servicesThe survey did ask how much would you use a town centre station with varying degrees of car parking provisioning and then the same sequence of questions about an out of town station - which would cure the parking issue at the expense of the utility of the station for town centre access and potentially simplify reinstatement by allowing you to avoid the A1/hospital/old station dilemmas.
Providing an additional hourly path could be sought from Waverley as far as the branch you could provide 2tph service to all stations up to Longniddry, 1tph to the two respective branches. To get Drem to 2tph you could amend the Dunbars but it's probably small enough to say 1tph would suffice?
As a Haddington based commuter who currently drives to Wallyford P&R I have a vested interest in this one. Won't get my hopes up though!
Indeed.You say that reopening Strathmore will guarantee Dundee will be relegated to a stopping services. I say that future service patterns wont be determined by whether it is built - but by the market demand and political decisions. I see no reason why the 1tph express Dundee-Perth-Stirling-Glasgow service wont continue.
You would want to have a few stops, too - Blairgowrie, Alyth, Forfar, Brechin - but it's still an interesting suggestion.Actually, I beg your pardon, I only looked at the best Glasgow-Aberdeen times as of now. Doing it from north to south, with the 1245 departure from Aberdeen you get 2h27m with stops at only Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee, Perth and Stirling. So dropping Montrose and Arbroath could get you to maybe 2h20m.
Anyway, my earlier point was that the gains made by running direct from Perth to north of Montrose would have to be pretty spectacular to justify dropping Scotland's fourth largest centre of population, as well as Arbroath and Montrose, from the route. I think that this thread has reached that conclusion a number of times before, but it was interesting to have a look at what was achieved via Strathmore at best in the sixties.
The two big problems are firstly that to get to the previous station a new bridge at the bypass would be needed and secondly fitting more trains into the section between Waverley and Longniddry given that priority seems to be given to Inter city services
then upgrade the Millerhill loop lines to allow passenger traffic in conjunction with the Portobello Junction upgrade. Stopping services form North Berwick (or Haddington) would provide additional services through Newcraighall and Brunstane with as already been suggested additional platforms at these stations. (EDIT to add) Mussleburgh station would be relocated on the loop line, slightly to the south of the existing station.
The difficulty is more likely to be express paths out of Glasgow Queen Street, currently there is 1 Aberdeen and 0.5 Inverness per hour. So either the Strathmore or Dundee express may be limited to alternating with the Inverness trains. Scotrail should be in the business of running trains between where their passengers either are or want to be. So bypassing Dundee to save a few minutes for Aberdeen passengers, at what is likely to be a significant cost is unlikely to fly. A fully doubled, electrified line via Stirling, Perth and Dundee is much more sensible.You say that reopening Strathmore will guarantee Dundee will be relegated to a stopping services. I say that future service patterns wont be determined by whether it is built - but by the market demand and political decisions. I see no reason why the 1tph express Dundee-Perth-Stirling-Glasgow service wont continue.
Diddling about adding loops here and there and resignalling would probably cost more than reinstating Strathmore. Long stretches of high speed running between Perth, Dundee and Montrose are not possible due to curvature and sections of single track and can never match the times of routing Glasgow-Aberdeen services through Strathmore so get those fingers out and bite the bullet TS and reinstate this route.Railway enthusiasts can wish as hard as they like, but the likely returns from reinstating the Strathmore line (or variations thereon via its many branches) are never likely to cover the cost of the reinstatement. I predict with confidence that it'll never happen.
If there's a desire to increase capacity, resignalling the current route to allow closer headway between trains and reinstating loops to allow faster trains to pass (like the northbound one at Montrose, which was only taken out 10-12 years ago) would be just as effective and cost far less.
In the bigger picture of train times between Edinburgh and Glasgow/Perth and Aberdeen, I suspect that the effect of the short section of single line between Usan and Montrose is pretty negligible.
Diddling about adding loops here and there and resignalling would probably cost more than reinstating Strathmore. Long stretches of high speed running between Perth, Dundee and Montrose are not possible due to curvature and sections of single track and can never match the times of routing Glasgow-Aberdeen services through Strathmore so get those fingers out and bite the bullet TS and reinstate this route.
Reinstating from Perth as far as Forfar would allow 100mph or even 125mph. A new line from Forfar to just short of Laurencekirk following the A90 could be built to high speed also adding Brechin City to the National rail map. Electrifying at the same time would allow a sub 2 hour journey from Glasgow to Aberdeen stopping only at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven and a second train per hour stopping at other intermediate stations in 2 hours 15 minutes, faster than the fastest via Dundee.
Any freight from west of the Pennines in England to the northeast of Scotland would route this way unhindered by gradient or speed restriction except through Stirling. At the moment, we don't know what the speed restriction through Perth will be for through freight on the route to Stanley Junction.
I finally understand what a crayonista is. 40+ miles of essentially new railway is supposed to cost less than resignalling and adding loops to an existing railway. Riiiight.Diddling about adding loops here and there and resignalling would probably cost more than reinstating Strathmore.
I've always thought the same.Now reducing the single track section by about half would bring substantial benefits, assuming NR would allow the doubling to start on a gradient, a d indeea curve.
Reinstating from Perth as far as Forfar would allow 100mph or even 125mph. A new line from Forfar to just short of Laurencekirk following the A90 could be built to high speed also adding Brechin City to the National rail map. Electrifying at the same time would allow a sub 2 hour journey from Glasgow to Aberdeen stopping only at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven and a second train per hour stopping at other intermediate stations in 2 hours 15 minutes, faster than the fastest via Dundee. Perth-Aberdeen via Strathmore would be about 90 miles do doable in a little over an hour.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: not very likely.
You're looking at something like 20km of essentially new railway (the formation hasn't been maintained for a long time) from Arbroath to so costs would have to come in well under £10m/km - doable, but that's just the actual construction costs. Looking at satellite images it looks like the original route has been built on in places, plus I've no idea what state the bridge over the Esk is in - a new one could add £5-10M by itself.
Perhaps it could be built as single track to bring down the cost? It could carry the northbound Express services, and maybe one of the southbound express services or whichever permutation of express and freight services it was possible to timetable?
Don't be an a**. The main point which you obviously don't get or do get but prefer to ridicule is the fact that there is life beyond Dundee but unable to get to the central belt without going by a circuitous coastal route via Dundee.Oh well that seals it then - through express services from Aberdeen to Glasgow should definitely be taken away from Dundee (population 148,270) so that Forfar (population 14,048) can have them instead.
Jeez...
So, Brechin is not a city?Brechin City is a football team, not a population centre.