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OMG! You’re not serious! This is the information when you dig into the Network Railcard on the Trainline app. I thought Chiltern were a participating service for journeys into London? And that the Network Railcard was for travel after 10am?
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It is a strict liability offence and if the matter gets to court you would be guilty. I assume the outcome you want is persuade Chiltern not to send the matter to court but instead to offer you an out of court settlement.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to describe Leamington Spa as being in SE England.
I'm in the school that you need to now grovel, grovel, grovel - there is an incentive to Chiltern to show mercy in that it is financially better for them to get an out of court settlement. Attention to detail is rightly or wrongly a prerequisite for cost effective travel in GB. The Gold Card is probably not the way for you, since it's something of a perk for annual season ticket holders, who typically pay a lot for their core rail travel.
The Network Railcard area is an odd shape which also includes Exeter, Worcester and King's Lynn - none of which are routinely described as being in the south-east.
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We need to see the ticket(s) to be clear on this, or the details of the ticket(s) issued. Trainline do automatically 'split' tickets to save you money (they call it 'Splitsave') and may have done this while applying the Network Railcard discount to one (or more) tickets.
It is a strict liability offence and if the matter gets to court you would be guilty. I assume the outcome you want is persuade Chiltern not to send the matter to court but instead to offer you an out of court settlement.
The Network Railcard area is an odd shape which also includes Exeter, Worcester and King's Lynn - none of which are routinely described as being in the south-east.
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A Gold Card is issued alongside the purchase of a qualifying Annual season ticket. Such a season ticket would not cost less than £200.
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We need to see the ticket(s) to be clear on this, or the details of the ticket(s) issued. Trainline do automatically 'split' tickets to save you money (they call it 'Splitsave') and may have done this while applying the Network Railcard discount to one (or more) tickets.
I don’t know whether the Travelcard was applied. I only know I was asked to show it. Here’s the train ticket I had on the day as saved via the Trainline app.
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I think it's a bit of a stretch to describe Leamington Spa as being in SE England.
I'm in the school that you need to now grovel, grovel, grovel - there is an incentive to Chiltern to show mercy in that it is financially better for them to get an out of court settlement. Attention to detail is rightly or wrongly a prerequisite for cost effective travel in GB. The Gold Card is probably not the way for you, since it's something of a perk for annual season ticket holders, who typically pay a lot for their core rail travel.
I wasn’t looking for the Gold Card. Someone asked me if I had one on these threads. The Railcard isn’t applied to all my journeys from what I can work out. When I travelled to Newcastle last year or Edinburgh this year, it wasn’t applied. So I thought the discount was only applied to qualifying journeys?
The Network Railcard area is an odd shape which also includes Exeter, Worcester and King's Lynn - none of which are routinely described as being in the south-east.
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A Gold Card is issued alongside the purchase of a qualifying Annual season ticket. Such a season ticket would not cost less than £200.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
We need to see the ticket(s) to be clear on this, or the details of the ticket(s) issued. Trainline do automatically 'split' tickets to save you money (they call it 'Splitsave') and may have done this while applying the Network Railcard discount to one (or more) tickets.
And there’s no fare for that date that would match the amount paid, also implying that there are two tickets, one of which may have a Network Card applied.
And there’s no fare for that date that would match the amount paid, also implying that there are two tickets, one of which may have a Network Card applied.
Ok, so I think we are safe to assume that one ticket did have the discount, so we come back to the point that you are best advised to write a very apologetic letter, ask them to ignore your previous one as you now understand the situation better, and ask very nicely if they would consider an out of court settlement. To be in their inbox by first thing on Tuesday.
And there’s no fare for that date that would match the amount paid, also implying that there are two tickets, one of which may have a Network Card applied.
Ok, so I think we are safe to assume that one ticket did have the discount, so we come back to the point that you are best advised to write a very apologetic letter, ask them to ignore your previous one as you now understand the situation better, and ask very nicely if they would consider an out of court settlement. To be in their inbox by first thing on Tuesday.
It will have it selected by default and offer a discount if the journey being made can utilise the discount. If you chose a ticket that didn’t (say Leamington to Birmingham) then it wouldn’t offer tickets with the discount t.
In this case, it appears the split save option did allow it to be used from further south into London.
as in you’ve left the railcard option selected when buying your tickets. You’re telling the booking engine you have one, and because it’s only valid from Banbury and further south, it’s cheaper to split your tickets en route, either there or some other place, than buy a full price return from Leamington Spa.
That receipt for £38.30 says you've been sold a SplitSave combination of an Off-Peak Day Return and a Super Off-Peak Return.
Working backwards, that's got to be an undiscounted Off-Peak Day Return between Leamington Spa and Banbury for £11.70 and a Network Railcard discounted Super Off-Peak Return between Banbury and London Terminals for £26.60.
The saving compared to an undiscounted Super Off-Peak Return from Leamington Spa to London Terminals was £1.70.
Absolutely stunned to have received the attached letter.
I was asked to display my Railcard on a journey to London. That was the first time I discovered my Railcard had expired on the Trainline app.
The conductor said “don’t worry, I’ll refer you to Chiltern and they’ll contact you to pay the difference.”
Then I get this letter.
My email response is below:
Dear Asif Ismail
Customer Reference 14506647
I have opened to dayacknowledge receipt of your letter of 9th May 2025 and would like to take this opportunity to clarify my e-mail of xxxxxx which was written in haste and without thinking through the matter calmlyinforming me of your intention to prosecute me for “avoiding the correct rail fare.”
I am a fairly infrequent traveller, requiring me to use rail travel to attend sporadic meetings and events in my role as a volunteer running a national charity.
I always use the Trainline app to book my travel. I purchased my railcard via the Trainline app. Until the day in question I was unaware my travel card had expired and received no notification at all it was due to expire, either from the National Railcard issuing body or via an alert from the Trainline app.
My travel history will show that I have no previous history of failing to pay the appropriate fare [assuming this is the case] I am extremely distressed and alarmed to discover you are choosing to prosecute me! I am not a fare dodger, - presumably you can see I always pay for my tickets?
The out of date railcard was a complete oversight and I was travelling in good faith and the knowledgebelief that all was in order. However I now realise that the out of date railcard invalidated the ticket I presented. I would be grateful if this matter could be settled by payment of any additional fare due together with a contribution toward your administrative costs.Why on earth Trainline allows the purchase of a discounted fare without verification of appropriate documents which unlock that fare is a mystery and goes against the Consumer Rights Act, which sets out responsibilities on businesses to ensure customers are informed about their online purchases and e-transactions are clear and transparent.
I would suggest the wording I have inserted/ amended above would be more appropriate. Not saying you use the exact wording, but I think it's tone is more likely to secure a settlement.
(Apologies if amending in this way doesn't follow Forum rules re accessibility and I'm not sure why the formatting has gone a bit weird.)
It will have it selected by default and offer a discount if the journey being made can utilise the discount. If you chose a ticket that didn’t (say Leamington to Birmingham) then it wouldn’t offer tickets with the discount t.
In this case, it appears the split save option did allow it to be used from further south into London.
OK. But the fact remains the Railcard had expired and was applied to the relevant part of the journey so as colleagues have confirmed and educated me, I still made a journey with an invalid ticket (however mistakenly).
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I would suggest the wording I have inserted/ amended above would be more appropriate. Not saying you use the exact wording, but I think it's tone is more likely to secure a settlement.
(Apologies if amending in this way doesn't follow Forum rules re accessibility and I'm not sure why the formatting has gone a bit weird.)
DRAFT:
Further to your letter dated 9th May, which was delivered and opened on Tuesday 20th May and my email of the same date, I’ve been able to access informal advice via Rail Forum UK.
After my initial shock and distress to discover Chiltern were considering prosecution, I am writing to sincerely apologise for travelling with an invalid ticket.
This was an unintended oversight on my part as I had not realised the Network Railcard had expired, nor that it was still ‘applied’ to invalid journeys via the Trainline app. I immediately renewed the Railcard.
On the journey in question, the train conductor scanned my ticket and asked to see the Railcard. I tried looking for it on the app. The conductor said “don’t worry, I’ll pass your details on and someone will be in touch to pay the difference.”
I thought nothing more of it and renewed the Railcard. I have attached on a separate page proof of the ticket purchased on the day, as requested. I fully accept I had inadvertently and mistakenly purchased an invalid ticket and am very sorry for my mistake, it will absolutely not happen again.
Please advise how I can pay for the outstanding fare/s. I wish to reassure you I will do my utmost to ensure this does not happen again.
This is the first and only time anything like this has happened. At the time of purchasing the Network Railcard, I had originally completed a ‘quiz’ on the Trainline app to find out if a discount card was relevant to my travel requirements. I had acted in good faith based on the information the app supplied.
I will be attempting to contact Trainline to let them know the advice on the app is potentially overly simplistic and does not alert customers to situations like this one with a Railcard applied to journeys it is not valid for.
I have certainly learned to be absolutely scrupulous on double checking terms and conditions when purchasing tickets in the future, and that the Trainline may not afford easily accessible information and to triple check whichever tickets a third party app recommends as any savings may not be applicable.
I have attached screenshots from Trainline app for your reference, which informed my decision making when travelling (principally) on the Chiltern line.
I will now only purchase tickets via the Chiltern app.
I very much wish to settle this matter out of court for the fare due plus any administration fee and appeal most sincerely for the option to do this as soon as possible.
I am extremely sorry and look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely
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That receipt for £38.30 says you've been sold a SplitSave combination of an Off-Peak Day Return and a Super Off-Peak Return.
Working backwards, that's got to be an undiscounted Off-Peak Day Return between Leamington Spa and Banbury for £11.70 and a Network Railcard discounted Super Off-Peak Return between Banbury and London Terminals for £26.60.
The saving compared to an undiscounted Super Off-Peak Return from Leamington Spa to London Terminals was £1.70.
Do not send this letter as it's currently written, assuming you wish to obtain a favourable outcome. I haven't got time to give feedback on it tonight but will advise fully at some point tomorrow, unless other forum members get to it first.
DRAFT:
Further to your letter dated 9th May, which was delivered and opened on Tuesday 20th May and my email of the same date, I’ve been able to access informal advice via Rail Forum UK.
After my initial shock and distress to discover Chiltern were considering prosecution, I am writing to sincerely apologise for travelling with an invalid ticket.
This was an unintended oversight on my part as I had not realised the Network Railcard had expired, nor that it was still ‘applied’ to invalid journeys via the Trainline app. I immediately renewed the Railcard.
On the journey in question, the train conductor scanned my ticket and asked to see the Railcard. I tried looking for it on the app. The conductor said “don’t worry, I’ll pass your details on and someone will be in touch to pay the difference.”
I thought nothing more of it and renewed the Railcard. I have attached on a separate page proof of the ticket purchased on the day, as requested. I fully accept I had inadvertently and mistakenly purchased an invalid ticket and am very sorry for my mistake, it will absolutely not happen again.
Please advise how I can pay for the outstanding fare/s. I wish to reassure you I will do my utmost to ensure this does not happen again.
This is the first and only time anything like this has happened. At the time of purchasing the Network Railcard, I had originally completed a ‘quiz’ on the Trainline app to find out if a discount card was relevant to my travel requirements. I had acted in good faith based on the information the app supplied.
I will be attempting to contact Trainline to let them know the advice on the app is potentially overly simplistic and does not alert customers to situations like this one with a Railcard applied to journeys it is not valid for.
I have certainly learned to be absolutely scrupulous on double checking terms and conditions when purchasing tickets in the future, and that the Trainline may not afford easily accessible information and to triple check whichever tickets a third party app recommends as any savings may not be applicable.
I have attached screenshots from Trainline app for your reference, which informed my decision making when travelling (principally) on the Chiltern line.
I will now only purchase tickets via the Chiltern app.
I very much wish to settle this matter out of court for the fare due plus any administration fee and appeal most sincerely for the option to do this as soon as possible.
I am extremely sorry and look forward to hearing from you.
Personally I think that's a good letter overall, but could be shortened a little.
1) I wouldn't bother with the screen shots (they will have seen them in this forum anyway!) and that sentence.
2) The Chiltern app thing probably won't move the dial much, and you said previously you will take more care with future purchases.
3) I wonder whether you should overtly ask them to discard your previous email, though it is more than implied.
Otherwise it reads well and gets the message across.
I think there is a bit of confusion in your mind where you talk about the app applying the discount for journeys which it is not valid for. It would have been entirely appropriate for it to apply the Railcard in the way it did, had the Railcard still been in date. So I would delete that whole section.
Other than that it feels a bit long, and I do think you should clearly ask in the opening paragraph that your previous email is disregarded, and the reason why. Not sure I would explicitly mention this forum either, although it is likely it has been seen here!
What's happened is that you've been caught travelling with an invalid ticket. However unitientional it was this is a criminal offence and Chiltern are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to.
Chiltern have written to you asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. The letter does use quite threatening language but I suspect this is deliberate on their part to make sure people take it seriously. Chiltern will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before. This normally costs the outstanding fare plus an admin fee, typically £150 and is the outcome I would normally expect to see if this case.
The problem you've got is the email you've sent isn't really worded suitably to gain the best chance of an out of court settlement. It's your responsibility to make sure your tickets are valid before you commence your journey and while the sequence of events you've described is unfortunate it doesn't change your responsibility. I agree witrh @island that the best way to try and obtain an out of court settlement from Chiltern is to send a further email by the end of tomorrow, this time using more contrite language and perhaps adding that you have reflected and researched the situation since you sent your initial reply.
I strongly suggest you put the draft wording into this thread so that we can proof read it for you and suggest alterations to obtain a favourabkle outcome.
DRAFT:
Further to your letter dated 9th May, which was delivered and opened on Tuesday 20th May and my email of the same date, I’ve been able to access informal advice via Rail Forum UK.
After my initial shock and distress to discover Chiltern were considering prosecution, I am writing to sincerely apologise for travelling with an invalid ticket.
This was an unintended oversight on my part as I had not realised the Network Railcard had expired, nor that it was still ‘applied’ to invalid journeys via the Trainline app. I immediately renewed the Railcard.
On the journey in question, the train conductor scanned my ticket and asked to see the Railcard. I tried looking for it on the app. The conductor said “don’t worry, I’ll pass your details on and someone will be in touch to pay the difference.”
I thought nothing more of it and renewed the Railcard. I have attached on a separate page proof of the ticket purchased on the day, as requested. I fully accept I had inadvertently and mistakenly purchased an invalid ticket and am very sorry for my mistake, it will absolutely not happen again.
Please advise how I can pay for the outstanding fare/s. I wish to reassure you I will do my utmost to ensure this does not happen again.
This is the first and only time anything like this has happened. At the time of purchasing the Network Railcard, I had originally completed a ‘quiz’ on the Trainline app to find out if a discount card was relevant to my travel requirements. I had acted in good faith based on the information the app supplied.
I will be attempting to contact Trainline to let them know the advice on the app is potentially overly simplistic and does not alert customers to situations like this one with a Railcard applied to journeys it is not valid for.
I have certainly learned to be absolutely scrupulous on double checking terms and conditions when purchasing tickets in the future, and that the Trainline may not afford easily accessible information and to triple check whichever tickets a third party app recommends as any savings may not be applicable.
I have attached screenshots from Trainline app for your reference, which informed my decision making when travelling (principally) on the Chiltern line.
I will now only purchase tickets via the Chiltern app.
I very much wish to settle this matter out of court for the fare due plus any administration fee and appeal most sincerely for the option to do this as soon as possible.
I am extremely sorry and look forward to hearing from you.
Personally I think that's a good letter overall, but could be shortened a little.
1) I wouldn't bother with the screen shots (they will have seen them in this forum anyway!) and that sentence.
2) The Chiltern app thing probably won't move the dial much, and you said previously you will take more care with future purchases.
3) I wonder whether you should overtly ask them to discard your previous email, though it is more than implied.
Otherwise it reads well and gets the message across.
Whatever is owed I just want to sort it out. Colleagues have said it’s a strict liability offence so I guess there is no leeway whatsoever. I agree their approach feels extremely heavy handed and suffice to say I will feel extremely anxious travelling by rail / on the Chiltern line in the future, which will impact my sense of safety in the future and inclination to travel by public transport. I’m unbelievably shocked and remain upset at the way Chiltern have handled this. I just want it over and done with.
We know that some train operating companies monitor this site to some degree. Given the amount of detail you have chosen to provide they will be able to put two and two together.
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