Extortionate prices

[Aldaniti]

I am well aware what the HMRC mileage rules relate to.

That's great - and I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but having looked back at your last post to which I think you refer, you did give the impression that the OP had 'an allowance' - which may, or may not be the case, depending on his personal tax circumstances. I just thought I would clarify for those who might not fully understand how it works. Hope this helps.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless you were sneaky and bought your 16-25 railcard days before your 26th birthday

As for the topic some journeys are cheaper by car and some by train. If pounds and pence are that important to you then enjoy the drive but the train has intangible benefits as Greenback has touched upon. Is the expense worth it when you lose your first day (or half of it) due to fatigue?

A car will give you privacy but a train gives you mobility (and the option to go the toilet en route)

Hopefully this party of four wouldn't end up making the journey by FGW Sprinter, or a XC Voyager on a summer Saturday. Any benefits that the aforementioned member touched on might then become rather hard to find.

 

[Moonshot]

Nash, here is more to t than simply money, even if your calculations are correct, which seems at the very least arguable.

How do you put a monetary value on a more relaxed journey, supposing for example, you find long distance driving to be stressful and something to be avoided if possible?

How do you put a monetary value on time, particularly if you prefer to avoid motorways?

Every time we have a thread like this I say the same thing. Every journey is different, every individuals needs are different. That's why the decision on whether to drive or take the train is up to you. There is no right or wrong answer, just what works best for me or you. The same also applies to plane v coach v car, where such alternatives exist.

This is very true, and in fact I came across a very good example of this just today. There are a lot of posts on this forum about " split tickets " , but until today I had never been asked to do that as part of my job.......today I had 3 on one service!! Add in the fact that 70% of ticket sales carry some sort of discount, and its fairly obvious that despite the perception that rail travel is pricey, the reality is the public is increasingly concious of being able to find tickets that are value ( to them ).

 

[extendedpaul]

Wow just enquired a return fare Cardiff to Paignton, 3 adults 1 child, cost £200 off peak return.

If I use my car anytime £48.00 including bridge toll and usage wear and tear etc.

Car wins every trip.

Why use a train it cannot compete.

That return journey, booked in advance, on specific trains and with a friends and family railcard can be done for £60.50 for three adults and a child.

On the day, travel when you like, it can indeed cost over £200.

Car wins some trips, train often can compete.

 

[Starmill]

This is very true, and in fact I came across a very good example of this just today. There are a lot of posts on this forum about " split tickets " , but until today I had never been asked to do that as part of my job.......today I had 3 on one service!! Add in the fact that 70% of ticket sales carry some sort of discount, and its fairly obvious that despite the perception that rail travel is pricey, the reality is the public is increasingly concious of being able to find tickets that are value ( to them ).

A fascinating insight! I can't help but agree. Everyone hears the headlines about the £400+ fares and £5,000 season tickets, but that doesn't detract from the fact that people can still get a great deal, even without booking in advance if you know what you're up to. This forum and it's member's are somewhat instrumental in that endeavour, I feel. And I can't help but be grateful for every extra trip we help people make by rail.

 

[hassaanhc]

There's definitely an argument to be had about how expensive trains are compared to cars- I have colleagues who are forced to hire cars for travel as it's cheaper than a group ticket on XC- but it's not always as clear cut as it looks. People just add up the petrol price and decide that's the cost of driving, without factoring in any of the on-costs.

Yeah it isn't clear cut. Sometimes is you have people compare the cheapest flight or coach tickets with your Anytime tickets London-Manchester to show how expensive the train is. Yes the ticket mentioned above is expensive, however in many cases that isn't much different to travelling on a flight during busy periods or taking a coach right at the last second. And your ticket would only be valid on one particular service, another good thing about rail travel where most tickets allow you a choice of trains to take. At least for all three modes of transport you'll find some tickets which are a bargain and others that you think are very high, that isn't something limited to trains. Nor is the feeling you're getting little for your money :P
(Has probably said something stupid there quite tired)

 

[Nash]

That return journey, booked in advance, on specific trains and with a friends and family railcard can be done for £60.50 for three adults and a child.

On the day, travel when you like, it can indeed cost over £200.

Car wins some trips, train often can compete.

I know forward planning can save money on fares but because my wife has a chronic health condition we have to be able to travel when we want to so we cant use advance tickets, yet I am going to Crewe for the DRS open day this saturday and Cardiff to crew return is £48.70 using the heart of wales day ranger and a Shrewsbury to Crewe return, this brings it nearer the car price as i am travelling solo, so I am not knocking all tickets just some and I love using the train.

 

[andrewkeith5]

My numbers add up fairly well in this situation. My car travels 7,000 miles per year and is well maintained - costs as below per mile:
Fuel (actual cost calculated, not estimated) - 16p
Insurance - 8p (£565 this year)
Tyres - 3p (based on a 4 tyres costing £600 and lasting 20,000 miles)
Brakes - 1p (based on £200 cost and lasting 20,000 miles/3 years)
Financing - 40p (£234.69/month)
Servicing/MOT - 3.4p (£240/year fixed)
General Maintenance/Repairs - 3.5p (budget £250/year)
Tax - 2p (£145/year)
Total 76.9p/mile
So for a 260 mile round trip that's £199.94, add £6.40 for the toll plus what I'm sure will be significant for parking.

My car isn't the cheapest in the world to run, I know, but that's because I have it because I enjoy driving, but for longer routes (~2 hours) favour the comfort and ease of trains, which with my 16-25 railcard and a little bit of time working out the best tickets works out favourably or equally in cost the majority of the time.

 

[extendedpaul]

I don't think anyone disputes that rail travel can be horrifyingly expensive on the day and I am sorry your wife's circumstances mean you cannot use advance tickets. Are you aware of the new "Two Together" railcard ? Since its introduction my OH has accompanied me on most of my trips ( a mixed blessing) and we are using the train more than ever and the car less. A £45 fare for one has becomes £60 for two

Last week we went to Newcastle for a couple of days on advance tickets - northbound from Kings Cross first class for £29 odd each and southbound standard for under a tenner each with the railcard reductions. Travel while there was also excellent value with day ranger tickets also discounted

There was a man opposite us on the way up who had a non advance ticket (no reservation) which on the day costs £207.50. He refused all refreshments offered bar one bottle of water. I am sure there are plenty of similar passengers . On the other hand we each managed three alcoholic drinks (two spirits, one wine), lasagne hot meal, four sandwiches, two coffees and sundry cakes, biscuits and crisps. Only needed a snack in the evening. Absolute bargain.

 

[Hadders]

My numbers add up fairly well in this situation. My car travels 7,000 miles per year and is well maintained - costs as below per mile:
Fuel (actual cost calculated, not estimated) - 16p
Insurance - 8p (£565 this year)
Tyres - 3p (based on a 4 tyres costing £600 and lasting 20,000 miles)
Brakes - 1p (based on £200 cost and lasting 20,000 miles/3 years)
Financing - 40p (£234.69/month)
Servicing/MOT - 3.4p (£240/year fixed)
General Maintenance/Repairs - 3.5p (budget £250/year)
Tax - 2p (£145/year)
Total 76.9p/mile
So for a 260 mile round trip that's £199.94, add £6.40 for the toll plus what I'm sure will be significant for parking.

My car isn't the cheapest in the world to run, I know, but that's because I have it because I enjoy driving, but for longer routes (~2 hours) favour the comfort and ease of trains, which with my 16-25 railcard and a little bit of time working out the best tickets works out favourably or equally in cost the majority of the time.

But the cost of insurance, finance and tax is fixed regardless of how many (or few) miles you do. So using your figures the incremental cost of doing an additional journey is 26.9p per mile.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But the cost of insurance, finance and tax is fixed regardless of how many (or few) miles you do.

Not quite.

Insurance premiums are partially decided by how many miles you do in a year. Do more miles and, generally speaking, your premiums will be higher.

It's a similar thing with finance deals now. Most car dealers push you towards a HP agreement structure where the size of your monthly payment is decided by how many miles you do, and if you exceed those miles then the penalties are eye-watering. But even on a bog-standard car loan the more miles you do the more your car depreciates in value.

VED is fixed, yes, but in the grand scheme of things VED is negligible for most modern cars. Before I got rid of it, the VED for my Toyota Aygo was £19 a year.

 

[andrewkeith5]

But the cost of insurance, finance and tax is fixed regardless of how many (or few) miles you do. So using your figures the incremental cost of doing an additional journey is 26.9p per mile.

Yes, but incremental cost fails to take into account the fact that these still have to be paid.

The only difference is that they will go up or down, they will still have to be paid whether the car goes nowhere or does 100,000 miles a year. Just because one mode of transport incurs fixed costs and another doesn't, does not mean that said fixed costs can be excluded. They are still costs directly related to use of the car, and thus are part of the cost per mile of running the car.

My car would be cheaper to run, for example, if I had opted for a hire purchase agreement instead of the conditional sale agreement and gave the car back at the end. The final payment would make it more expensive. So as I plan to keep the car beyond the end of the agreement, I opted for the one that made it better value to me, thus reducing my cost per mile overall.

Not paying the insurance, tax, or finance means not having a car, and then all the calculations have to change because you'd have to rent one instead.

 

[bb21]

Fixed costs can be freely treated as sunk costs or not to fit one's argument. I always consider these comparisons pretty much meaningless. If one feels that the fare is fair, they will pay it. There are also, as others have pointed out, unquantifiable aspects of rail travel which is impossible for a price label to be put against.

It is true that booking on the day for medium-long distance travel can be pricey, but that is no different to other mode of transport. What I think should be improved is the differentials between the cheapest fares and the flexible ones for longer distance journeys.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Fixed costs can be freely treated as sunk costs or not to fit one's argument. I always consider these comparisons pretty much meaningless. If one feels that the fare is fair, they will pay it. There are also, as others have pointed out, unquantifiable aspects of rail travel which is impossible for a price label to be put against.

It is true that booking on the day for medium-long distance travel can be pricey, but that is no different to other mode of transport. What I think should be improved is the differentials between the cheapest fares and the flexible ones for longer distance journeys.

Quite. In my case I default to train for >2 hours (car travel time), unless I either need significant flexibility at my destination, or there aren't trains at the time I'm likely to need them. And also because most journeys of this length for me involve a stint on the M25 and probably some other busy motorway, which means it's infinitely preferential to use the train even if you have to sit next to a screaming child.

I do agree there definitely needs to be a better differentiation between flexible and not - most people seem to think that if you reserve a seat you must use that train, when of course actually you're often paying more for a lot more flexibility.

e.g. the only time I use advance tickets is if they mean a cheaper (or not too much more expensive) first class journey than the relevant flexible standard class ticket, as I generally preference paying more for flexibility/quality.

 

[Greenback]

Cardiff to crew return is £48.70 using the heart of wales day ranger and a Shrewsbury to Crewe return, this brings it nearer the car price as i am travelling solo, so I am not knocking all tickets just some and I love using the train.

So the train can compete after all!

I always consider these comparisons pretty much meaningless.

I agree. I try not to get involved in such comparisons.

If one feels that the fare is fair, they will pay it. There are also, as others have pointed out, unquantifiable aspects of rail travel which is impossible for a price label to be put against.

Absolutely. For me the need to have toilet facilities without the hassle of finding one when on the road is a great advantage, even if we are talking about Voyagers and Sprinters.

I also love the fact you can have a read, or a nap, and stretch your legs without having to interrupt your journey.

At the moment even the disadvantages of cramped and overcrowded trains isn't enough to outweigh the benefits for most journeys.

What I think should be improved is the differentials between the cheapest fares and the flexible ones for longer distance journeys.

Yes, I've been saying this for a long time, but it usually get a negative response from those who seem to be able to get the very cheapest Advance fares!

Quite. In my case I default to train for >2 hours (car travel time), unless I either need significant flexibility at my destination, or there aren't trains at the time I'm likely to need them. And also because most journeys of this length for me involve a stint on the M25 and probably some other busy motorway, which means it's infinitely preferential to use the train even if you have to sit next to a screaming child.

Some people do prefer to sit next to a screaming child or a hen party compared to long distance motorway driving. But each individual has different tolerance levels. Some love driving, others hate it and see it only as a means to an end.

I am the latter. I'd prefer to be sandwiched a party of drunk women and a family of screaming kids!

The rail fares would really have to be sky high, with no alternatives, for me to even consider driving a long distance. But others views will vary.

 

[Nash]

My numbers add up fairly well in this situation. My car travels 7,000 miles per year and is well maintained - costs as below per mile:
Fuel (actual cost calculated, not estimated) - 16p
Insurance - 8p (£565 this year)
Tyres - 3p (based on a 4 tyres costing £600 and lasting 20,000 miles)
Brakes - 1p (based on £200 cost and lasting 20,000 miles/3 years)
Financing - 40p (£234.69/month)
Servicing/MOT - 3.4p (£240/year fixed)
General Maintenance/Repairs - 3.5p (budget £250/year)
Tax - 2p (£145/year)
Total 76.9p/mile
So for a 260 mile round trip that's £199.94, add £6.40 for the toll plus what I'm sure will be significant for parking.

My car isn't the cheapest in the world to run, I know, but that's because I have it because I enjoy driving, but for longer routes (~2 hours) favour the comfort and ease of trains, which with my 16-25 railcard and a little bit of time working out the best tickets works out favourably or equally in cost the majority of the time.

Surely your finance and insurance and tax is payable even if you do no miles per year but park it on a public road ? so how can you calculate it per mile ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So the train can compete after all!



I agree. I try not to get involved in such comparisons.



Absolutely. For me the need to have toilet facilities without the hassle of finding one when on the road is a great advantage, even if we are talking about Voyagers and Sprinters.

I also love the fact you can have a read, or a nap, and stretch your legs without having to interrupt your journey.

At the moment even the disadvantages of cramped and overcrowded trains isn't enough to outweigh the benefits for most journeys.



Yes, I've been saying this for a long time, but it usually get a negative response from those who seem to be able to get the very cheapest Advance fares!



Some people do prefer to sit next to a screaming child or a hen party compared to long distance motorway driving. But each individual has different tolerance levels. Some love driving, others hate it and see it only as a means to an end.

I am the latter. I'd prefer to be sandwiched a party of drunk women and a family of screaming kids!

The rail fares would really have to be sky high, with no alternatives, for me to even consider driving a long distance. But others views will vary.

I don't think it can compete when there is 4 or 5 of you which is what my OP should have been clearer about.

 

[Aldaniti]

Yes, but incremental cost fails to take into account the fact that these still have to be paid.

It's irrelevant. As said above, the cost of your actual journey is 27p per mile. If the car remains locked in your garage all day you still have to pay your fixed costs.

 

[neilmc]

Basically you could view Anytime fares (especially on long-distance routes) as either:

a) a way of business passengers and the TOCs colluding to rip off employers who just issue tickets/allow expenses without very much analysis

b) a way of TOCs ripping off anyone who needs to travel at short notice or for work

c) a way of punishing naivety and inexperience in people, especially the elderly, who think that turning up at the station and buying a ticket from where you get on through to where you intend getting off is the commonsense way to catch a train just like it was fifty years ago

I'd like to see a maximum pence-per-mile price cap, after all this can be done with payday lenders so why not the rail industry?

Mind you, last night I bought an evening return from Manchester to Bolton for the sum of £1.95, which definitely made driving there a non-starter!

 

[andrewkeith5]

Surely your finance and insurance and tax is payable even if you do no miles per year but park it on a public road ? so how can you calculate it per mile ?

I don't think it can compete when there is 4 or 5 of you which is what my OP should have been clearer about.

Re point 1: As it's still payable, I calculate it per mile based on the number of miles I drive per year (7,000), hence can calculcate my car's cost per mile. If mileage changes, the cost per mile changes as you're using the fixed costs more efficiently (assuming no change in the insurance costs, which change dependent on mileage). In the same way as financial/production accountancy works, it's calculated into unit cost even though it's only paid in one transaction under management accountancy. In order to make a valid comparison, there needs to be a baseline - so as train fares inherently include all of the above factors, the cost of driving must too. I suspect trains would be a hell of a lot cheaper if it weren't for finance, insurance or tax!

Re point 2: It is harder to get the train to compete when there are many of you, but it still does on some routes and situations and depends almost entirely on circumstance - you can't make a blanket statement. The advantages of train allowing proper conversation and interaction unlike the car then also play into the decision.

 

[bb21]

I don't think it can compete when there is 4 or 5 of you which is what my OP should have been clearer about.

Unfortunately very unlikely pricewise when there are four in the car which is part of the reason why some TOCs do group deals.

However the argument about non-monetary advantages of travel by trains still stand.

 

[talltim]

Similar to the 'I pay insurance and tax etc whether I use the car for this journey or not' theory, well as a taxpayer you pay for rail subsidy whether you use trains or not

 

[Aldaniti]

Re point 1: As it's still payable, I calculate it per mile based on the number of miles I drive per year (7,000), hence can calculcate my car's cost per mile. If mileage changes, the cost per mile changes as you're using the fixed costs more efficiently (assuming no change in the insurance costs, which change dependent on mileage). In the same way as financial/production accountancy works, it's calculated into unit cost even though it's only paid in one transaction under management accountancy. In order to make a valid comparison, there needs to be a baseline - so as train fares inherently include all of the above factors, the cost of driving must too. I suspect trains would be a hell of a lot cheaper if it weren't for finance, insurance or tax!

Re point 2: It is harder to get the train to compete when there are many of you, but it still does on some routes and situations and depends almost entirely on circumstance - you can't make a blanket statement. The advantages of train allowing proper conversation and interaction unlike the car then also play into the decision.

Well, if my Management Accountant budgeted for our fleet costs that way he'd be receiving his P45!

 

[LexyBoy]

Similar to the 'I pay insurance and tax etc whether I use the car for this journey or not' theory, well as a taxpayer you pay for rail subsidy whether you use trains or not

You pay road tax whether you use the roads or not too

 

[andrewkeith5]

--ignore-- How do you delete posts on this forum!?

If I've got the types of accountancy mixed up, fair enough (though I don't think I have), although your fleet manager won't be considering the costs in the same way as I do because the accountancy for fleet/lease vehicles is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[IanD]

Sitting back and drinking a cold beer whilst the countryside passes by is much less stressful on a train than if you're driving a car.

 

[Deerfold]

You pay road tax whether you use the roads or not too

Assuming you mean VED (There's no tax called "Road Tax"), I haven't for 22 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, if my Management Accountant budgeted for our fleet costs that way he'd be receiving his P45!

Presumably if he can get fleet mileage down (without adversely affecting profitability) rather than having lots of vehicles sat idle he'd be aiming for a smaller fleet with the potential to make huge savings.

 

[D6975]

I don't drive, so the comparisons are irrelevant to me.
I always book advances and/or use rovers.

Coincidentally, I'm taking my son to Paignton for a week's holiday soon, booked the advance single tickets ages ago, XC HSTs down and back on consecutive Sats, total £19.50 each way for the two of us (from Temple Meads).
I think that's really good value.

A couple of years ago we came back on a weekday on the sprinter turn and Paignton-TM was just £9 for both of us! Yes, it took an extra half an hour, but at that price I wasn't complaining.

 

[talltim]

Assuming you mean VED (There's no tax called "Road Tax"), I haven't for 22 years.

I assume he meant in general taxation.

 

[Deerfold]

I assume he meant in general taxation.

As he specifically said "road tax" which most people use to mean VED, I didn't.

I do, of course, pay general taxation.

 

[LexyBoy]

Sitting back and drinking a cold beer whilst the countryside passes by is much less stressful on a train than if you're driving a car.

It's not very comfy trying to have a nap with your head resting on the steering wheel either.

Giving up the opportunity for a cheeky pint or four is too high a price to pay if you ask me!

As he specifically said "road tax" which most people use to mean VED, I didn't.

I do, of course, pay general taxation.

I did mean in general taxation, since VED revenues are not dedicated to roads so can't be called road tax. Of course unless you're a smug non-driver like yours truly who enjoys pointing out this fact in arguments with drivers, my sentiment would not be obvious

 

[dcsprior]

It is really a case of horses for courses - for example my Fianceé and I mainly holiday in the UK. As this tends to be self-catering, we take quite a lot of stuff and so wouldn't even think about doing this without the car. We'll be going to North Wales soon, I expect the total cost will be in the region of £100, so £50/person. I'm not considering fixed costs - we have to pay these regardless as needs to a car for her work. On the other hand I travel from Edinburgh to London and back for work each week, and find the train to be the best compromise between "lost" time (not the same as total elapsed time) and cost.

Basically you could view Anytime fares (especially on long-distance routes) as either:

a) a way of business passengers and the TOCs colluding to rip off employers who just issue tickets/allow expenses without very much analysis

If businesses want to avoid this, they could offer employees an incentive to book the cheaper tickets - e.g. if an employee books a ticket costing less than the Std Anytime, let can keep a quarter of the saving themselves.

Instead they sometimes seem do the opposite, and encourage staff to buy dearer tickets - for instance: from Edinburgh to London the "Scottish Executive" package is popular because it is technically a standard class ticket (despite giving the benefits of a first class ticket), so many people's employers allow them to buy this but don't allow them to buy First Advances which are normally cheaper.

I say this as someone who spends their own money rather than their employers - I'd only choose that ticket in very specific circumstances

What I think should be improved is the differentials between the cheapest fares and the flexible ones for longer distance journeys.

Yes, I've been saying this for a long time, but it usually get a negative response from those who seem to be able to get the very cheapest Advance fares!

If this is done by increasing the cheapest fares instead of (or as well as) decreasing the flexible ones, it will surely cause the rail companies to lose customers to airlines on some routes, and to coach companies on others.