Extra train for FA Cup Final

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calc7

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470 seats - is that a coupled up Voyager?


With the West Coast route out of London closed on Sunday 6 May, the earliest direct trains that fans could use to return to Liverpool would be on Monday 7 May.

What is the obsession with direct trains in this country? I find it terrifying that people may not consider going back till the Monday lest they have to change trains at Manchester or Chester. :x
 

aformeruser

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470 seats - is that a coupled up Voyager?
No that would be 448 maximum in standard or a lot more if First Class is declassified.

It looks like it's a HST set with First Class declassified. EMT sets have 469 seats in total.


What is the obsession with direct trains in this country? I find it terrifying that people may not consider going back till the Monday lest they have to change trains at Manchester or Chester. :x
Why are you assuming everyone going has Liverpool Lime Street station as their final destination?
 

Failed Unit

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Voyagers won't have clearance anyway. Didnt know the HST did from Manchester - Liverpool.

Can only be the HST, I did think multiple 158, but I doubt they are cleared into the St Pancras?
 

D1009

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Train is timed as loco hauled (455 tonnes) on the outward and HST on the return. Can't see it being loco hauled unless it's the Pretendolino, and that would have to be top and tailed. Am I right in thinking this is the first special train from the MML into St Pancras for many years ? I didn't think the four MML platforms had any spare capacity, particularly as the Thameslink core is closed. Route is via St Helens Jn, Stockport, Hope Valley, Chesterfield and Alfreton. Times are on opentraintimes.com.

Well done to everyone who was involved in organising it, I honestly thought the railway had given up on this year's Cup Final due to all the problems. Not used to this kind of joined up thinking on today's railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What is the obsession with direct trains in this country? I find it terrifying that people may not consider going back till the Monday lest they have to change trains at Manchester or Chester. :x
There aren't any direct trains to Manchester or Chester on the Sunday either.
 
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Sheridan

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So in your opinion no-one would be planning to do Formby-London via Liverpool, Bootle-London via Liverpool, Brunswick-London via Liverpool, etc. on cup final day?
What's that got to do with anything? The press release still talks about the first direct train to Liverpool. Passengers for Merseyrail stations could still change at Chester or Manchester.
 

aformeruser

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What's that got to do with anything? The press release still talks about the first direct train to Liverpool. Passengers for Merseyrail stations could still change at Chester or Manchester.
If you're going to read my reply to a quoted message at least read the quoted message before replying.
 

AlterEgo

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The train will be an EMT HST, declassified throughout and running non-stop Liverpool to London and return. The Pretendolino isn't cleared through the Hope Valley.
 

calc7

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So in your opinion no-one would be planning to do Formby-London via Liverpool, Bootle-London via Liverpool, Brunswick-London via Liverpool, etc. on cup final day?
Huh? What I mean is the suggestion that people will accept no less than a direct train to Liverpool (for connections onwards perhaps), their alternative being staying in London until Monday when they can get one.
 

aformeruser

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Huh? What I mean is the suggestion that people will accept no less than a direct train to Liverpool (for connections onwards perhaps), their alternative being staying in London until Monday when they can get one.
That's the bit you didn't say originally.

London Euston to Bootle Oriel Road involves a minimum of 4 changes on Sunday 6th May, with most journey options involving 6 changes (opposed to the normal 1 change) and you were going on about people being unwilling to change trains.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Does anyone know the details for the HST getting to Liverpool and also for the return trip and return movement from Liverpool?

Stupid question but mk3s are, why would the pretendolino not be? I am sure 67s have ran charters on the route.
Perhaps there is an issue with the DVT not being cleared? Not that I know either way, but the HST makes more sense anyway as EMT crew are trained on them and the route.
 

Sheridan

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If you're going to read my reply to a quoted message at least read the quoted message before replying.
I did. Most people are used to getting onto the Merseyrail network once they reach Liverpool. I still don't see why we need a direct service just because there is one (or two) more changes once we've reached Liverpool.
 

TDK

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I am shocked that Chiltern and ATW have not come up with a footex, it's simple - loco hauled set from Wembley direct to Chester the Merseyrail to Liverpool, or even direct to Crewe and then LM. 2 loco hauled sets could be utilsed or even 8 car 168/2's both of which are cleared to Crewe and Chester
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Does anyone know the details for the HST getting to Liverpool and also for the return trip and return movement from Liverpool?
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/S40000/2012/5/5

The times match the Virgin announcement, but the details say it is loco hauled and 95mph.
Runs via Chat Moss, Piccadilly, Romiley, Hope Valley and Derby.

Can't see any ECS movements, nor the return leg.
The operator is shown as VT.
Maybe this is a Pretendolino schedule, now replaced by an HST.

Where would the HST come ECS from?
If from Neville Hill it would be a rare trip over the Pennines.
 

aformeruser

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I did. Most people are used to getting onto the Merseyrail network once they reach Liverpool. I still don't see why we need a direct service just because there is one (or two) more changes once we've reached Liverpool.
It's 4-6 changes for Euston to Bootle Oriel Road on the Sunday as I've already mentioned.

For BTP purposes the less changes the better. Do they really want hundreds of football fans changing at stations like Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent and Birmingham New Street as well as the more usual interchanges?

Anyway the point is there is an extra train service via Sheffield, which is a good thing.
 

Failed Unit

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When you think about it.

HST. Easy life EMT have, train, route knowledge etc
Mk3s and loco? Who drives it EWS? Route knowledge? Probably ok.

Seating about the same. I just can't see why a HSt would not be used. We have ruled out the 222 - but can it operate via Newton me willows or is it only cleared via Warrington?
 

hick

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I am shocked that Chiltern and ATW have not come up with a footex, it's simple - loco hauled set from Wembley direct to Chester the Merseyrail to Liverpool, or even direct to Crewe and then LM. 2 loco hauled sets could be utilsed or even 8 car 168/2's both of which are cleared to Crewe and Chester
Not Chiltern's area of concern really now they're not running to Wrexham, it's not really like the Shrewsbury situation.

The value for the franchise is to make sure that the maintenance schedules for the weekday mainline stock aren't compromised as I'm sure you're aware Chiltern runs one of the highest stock utilisations going.

This is also on top of the fact that the Wembley stock plan for use on the Chiltern route will use pretty much all the stock going spare and may even eat in to the normal weekend maintenance allowances.
 

aformeruser

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Train is timed as loco hauled (455 tonnes) on the outward and HST on the return.
When you think about it.

HST. Easy life EMT have, train, route knowledge etc
Mk3s and loco? Who drives it EWS? Route knowledge? Probably ok.

Seating about the same. I just can't see why a HSt would not be used. We have ruled out the 222 - but can it operate via Newton me willows or is it only cleared via Warrington?
These two posts need to be read together and we need to remember two other things:
1. When the line via Warrington Central is closed, TPE divert via Newton-le-Willows while EMT always terminate short, which suggests EMT don't have route knowledge via Newton-le-Willows.
2. The line via Warrington Central doesn't have spare paths during Saturday daytime but will when a return working would take place.

That probably means the outward journey won't be a EMT crew on a HST but the return journey can be.
 

Failed Unit

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I used central via Newton le willows back in the day. I am sure Liverpool - Norwich is going via Newton-le-willows next weekend. Yes Warrington is closed.

Just check journey planner - emt definately diverting Norwich trains leaving 10 minutes earlier.
 
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D1009

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http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/S40000/2012/5/5

The times match the Virgin announcement, but the details say it is loco hauled and 95mph.
Runs via Chat Moss, Piccadilly, Romiley, Hope Valley and Derby.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the "details" only show how the train has been timed, and should not necessarily be taken as an indication of the rolling stock actually to be used. It is quite possible for a train to change timings at an intermediate stop, there are not necessarily running times available for all types of traction over all routes.
 

hairyhandedfool

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When the line via Warrington Central is closed, TPE divert via Newton-le-Willows while EMT always terminate short, which suggests EMT don't have route knowledge via Newton-le-Willows.
It might also suggest they can't get suitable paths or don't have the required stock spare to cover the service (diversions tend to be longer than the normal route).

That probably means the outward journey won't be a EMT crew on a HST but the return journey can be.
If not an EMT crew on an HST, then what would it be?

If, and I stress it is an if, they don't have the required route knowledge, they may hire TPE or Northern drivers as route conductors (given that the train only need stop for signals or emergencies).
 
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