Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[MikeWM]

By "self-policing" I meant people would be expected to comply themselves, rather than going vigilante !

Problem is that all these things are setting up serious potential confrontation issues. Would you want to be the only person getting into a carriage unmasked with 50 masked, nervous people, who have been told for months you may be bringing almost certain death upon them?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Wonder how many people will suddenly claim to have asthma.

Maybe some who don't want to wear a mask will falsely claim asthma as an excuse, but not nearly as many as currently simply don't bother to wear one. This raises the effort level for people who try to use public transport without a mask, and therefore will mean far more people will wear one - which will sure make public transport safer.

 

[sheff1]

If putting on an inexpensive, widely available mask means that I'm less likely to spread this unpleasant disease then I'm happy to do so.

(I already do so in shops out of courtesy to other shoppers and staff)

If you are likely to be spreading the virus then you should be self-isolating at home not swanning round shops and using public transport.

I suspect it will be one for passengers to self-police to an extent.

Ah the Vigilante State, even worse than the Police State. Where will the first instance of an exempted person being assualted occur ?

 

[NorthOxonian]

Oh joy!

Another area that hasn't really been discussed that much is since face masks became a 'thing' I now see without fail several just dumped in the streets on my walk to and from work!

I've seen far more face masks thrown away as litter than actually being worn (I'd put usage at circa 1-2% around here). I'm not sure what plans the railways or bus stations have for such a rise in littering.

 

[221129]

Scotland has a completely different legal system.

For example, you if you were to down a pint in Carlisle, then drive across the border, you can't claim that you want to be covered by English drink-drive laws when you are breathalysed.

If it's in the NRCOT then its enforceable regardless of the law in scotland being different.

 

[yorksrob]

Problem is that all these things are setting up serious potential confrontation issues. Would you want to be the only person getting into a carriage unmasked with 50 masked, nervous people, who have been told for months you may be bringing almost certain death upon them?

I suppose that is a danger.

Frankly, if we could get to the stage where we can have a carriage with 50 people in it, that would be progress at the moment.

 

[MikeWM]

Yes millions. According to Asthma UK (https://www.asthma.org.uk/about/media/facts-and-statistics/) there are over 5 million people being treated for asthma in the UK and asthma is not the only condition that will make wearing a mask impossible. Clearly GPs are not going to be able to produce anything like enough letters within 10 days.

GPs have effectively disappeared off the face of the earth for the last few months anyway, as far as I can tell.

And 5 million will be an underestimate. There are no doubt many more people, like myself, who have what is usually mild form of what-I've-always-suspected-to-be-asthma, but haven't been diagnosed officially.

 

[johntea]

Another question, with face masks how are people with a hearing impairment supposed to go about lip reading?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Problem is that all these things are setting up serious potential confrontation issues. Would you want to be the only person getting into a carriage unmasked with 50 masked, nervous people, who have been told for months you may be bringing almost certain death upon them?

I agree that is a downside of this.

Maybe - similar to the 'baby on board' badges that many pregnant women have in London, we should have 'asthmatic - cannot wear a mask' badges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that it will have legal force through the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

EDIT: How could they enforce it though the NRCOT but not have it apply in Wales & Scotland immediately?

Why the NRCoT I wonder? Why not the Coronavirus Regulations?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you are likely to be spreading the virus then you should be self-isolating at home not swanning round shops and using public transport.

That only works if you have symptoms. Surely you can't be unaware that many (maybe even, most) people with the virus have no symptoms and will therefore be unaware that they pose an infection risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Opposite way round for me.

I have no intention of driving trains around while wearing an uncomfortable and distracting face mask.

I can't drive (a car) with one on because it steams up my glasses!

I can see no reason why a driver should need to wear one, they are the very definition of socially distanced - in the cab on their own!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Any idea why it isnt starting till the 15th june? It should be the 8th june.

Presumably the delay is (a) to give people time to prepare, and (b) to match with more and more people using public transport as lockdown restrictions ease. I do kinda agree that 15 June seems a bit of a way off though, not sure whether we need that much delay.

 

[Mojo]

Those claiming will have until the 15th June to get a simple confirmation of their claim from their doctor's surgery.

Is this official government policy, or what you think should happen? Because thus far not seen this mentioned on BBC news or the Gov website.

 

[sheff1]

I think 'saying' that you are exempt might need to be backed up with a 'doctor's letter' to prevent dihonest claims.

So now people with asthma or other relevant disability have to carry round a letter to prevent Vigilantes assaulting them ? Will the Vigilantes even be willing to read such a letter ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes millions. According to Asthma UK (https://www.asthma.org.uk/about/media/facts-and-statistics/) there are over 5 million people being treated for asthma in the UK and asthma is not the only condition that will make wearing a mask impossible. Clearly GPs are not going to be able to produce anything like enough letters within 10 days.

Not all asthma would prohibit wearing a mask. I have asthma and I have worn one. It will depend on the severity of your asthma - you should do what is required based on your actual condition, not look for loopholes and get-outs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are likely to be spreading the virus then you should be self-isolating at home not swanning round shops and using public transport.

Back to lockdown, then, as anyone could have it.

 

[43066]

I can't drive (a car) with one on because it steams up my glasses!

I can see no reason why a driver should need to wear one, they are the very definition of socially distanced - in the cab on their own!

Very true, and you’d hope common sense would prevail! But I can imagine a scenario where some jobsworth BTP (or even TOC staff member) taps on the window and asks where my mask is!

I can (just about) tolerate “social distancing”, as nonsensical as it is in London but, I must say, I fundamentally object to this. If it was so important, why wasn’t it introduced weeks ago?!

There’s fairly scant evidence that it provides much benefit at all AFAIK. It’s just yet another example of a government which is making it up as it goes along and simply wants to be seen to be doing something.

EDIT: and I must say I feel for customer facing colleagues who are apparently going to be expected to enforce this!

 

[43066]

Back to lockdown, then, as anyone could have it.

That might have been the case a few weeks ago, but it’s pretty clear that hardly anyone outside care homes/medical settings is likely to have it now.

 

[Yew]

It'd be interesting to see the scientific rationale behind this. It's in direct disagreement with the advice from the WHO.

• If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.
• Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing.

When and how to use masks

WHO's guidance and advice on the use of masks to protect against and limit the spread of COVID-19.

www.who.int

 

[liam456]

Why the NRCoT I wonder? Why not the Coronavirus Regulations?

Indeed, for it to be excepted in Scotland and Wales, they'd have to specifically write it in, wouldn't they?
And who in Transport Scotland/Welsh Assembly decided "no we're not sure about that rule just yet, hold fire for us, DfT."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can (just about) tolerate “social distancing”. as nonsensical as it is in London but, I must say, I fundamentally object to this. If it was so important, why wasn’t it introduced weeks ago?!

Perhaps because, weeks ago, far fewer people were using public transport - meaning that social distancing on public transport was generally much easier, so mask wearing would have been less important.

There’s fairly scant evidence that it provides much benefit at all AFAIK. It’s just yet another example of a government which is making it up as it goes along and simply wants to be seen to be doing something.

There's some evidence though - enough to make it very plausible that it will make a difference to transmission rates. And given that, for the vast majority of people, wearing a mask is just a very minor inconvenience, it seems sensible to take action that probably lowers transmission.

 

[MikeWM]

It'd be interesting to see the scientific rationale behind this. It's in direct disagreement with the advice from the WHO.

When and how to use masks

WHO's guidance and advice on the use of masks to protect against and limit the spread of COVID-19.

www.who.int

Rationale? There's been no rationale behind anything else, why start now?

Unless of course the objective is to make all public life so authoritarian, unpleasant and tedious that everyone just gives up and stays at home forever.

 

[Yew]

That might have been the case a few weeks ago, but it’s pretty clear that hardly anyone outside care homes/medical settings is likely to have it now.

Indeed, surveillance testing suggests around 1/400 people have it. That's one person in a full 5-car train, or even longer if we take to account the proportion of cases in care homes, and people who are self-isolating; I'd bet it'd end up being around 18 full-but-not-standing railway carriages.

 

[sheff1]

That only works if you have symptoms. Surely you can't be unaware that many (maybe even, most) people with the virus have no symptoms and will therefore be unaware that they pose an infection risk.

Back to lockdown, then, as anyone could have it.

Quite, yet there is no compulsion to wear masks in indoor spaces and in shops etc very few people do.

 

[PHILIPE]

So anybody travelling on a Cardiff to Holyhead service would have to don a mask on leaving Abergavenny and keep it on until departure from Gobowen and start to wear it again following departure from Wrexham. It could then come off again following departure from Chester.

 

[AM9]

Yes millions. According to Asthma UK (https://www.asthma.org.uk/about/media/facts-and-statistics/) there are over 5 million people being treated for asthma in the UK and asthma is not the only condition that will make wearing a mask impossible. Clearly GPs are not going to be able to produce anything like enough letters within 10 days.

According to the link that you posted, there are 3.6million adults in England being treated for asthma. So:

1) how many are shielded because their asthma makes COVID-19 too dangerous for them?​

2) how many have to travel to work?​

3) of 2) above, how many use rail or bus to travel to work?​

4) how many of 3) above have mild asthma that doesn't prevent them wearing a face covering?​

According to thie site: https://www.cbre.co.uk/research-and-reports/our-cities/city-commuting-by-rail
about 2.9 million people use rail to get to work and about half that (let's say 1.5 million) use bus, and your linked asthma webpage says thjat 1 in 11 has the disease. That means that even if every person using bus or train doesn't use both, there are 4.4 million passengers. Even if every asthmatic travelled to work on public transport, that would only be 400,000 before those who didn't use public transport as grouped in my points 1),2) & 4) above. I doubt that more than 50,000 would be involved, if that.
Of course every one of them would be well acquainted with their local surgery to be able to get a standard form letter on their doctor's headed paper within 10 days.

 

[Bow Fell]

I suspect the reason for this coming in, is that we’re about to see the 2 metre social distancing guidance being reduced, with emphasis that social distancing on public transport may not be possible, as we see the next round of an increase of services in the next few weeks.

 

[6Gman]

For god's sake, masks do jack all to stop you getting the virus. Especially when front line workers are struggling to get them

No, but there's reasonable evidence that they stop spread.

 

[liam456]

I suspect the reason for this coming in, is that we’re about to see the 2 metre social distancing guidance being reduced, with emphasis that social distancing on public transport may not be possible, as we see the next round of an increase of services in the next few weeks.

Indeed, much like many European operators.