Factors affecting line speeds through stations

[KingDaveRa]

I popped out last Friday to see the Flying Scotsman as it was on one of the runs through the Chilterns. I went to Haddenham & Thame Parkway to see it, and whilst waiting one of the Mainline trains went through the station, as it doesn't stop there. There's plenty of signs saying about fast trains and not crossing the yellow line, and there was also a station announcement along the same lines.

When the train did go through it was just coasting, and opened up as it got out the other side of the station (I defy anybody to not notice a Class 68 do that). Similarly, the Scotsman was just coasting through and I distinctly heard the regulator opened up as it got out the north side of the station.

It got me wondering what the rules are about trains passing stations. Is there a maximum speed? Does it change? I seem to recall being in Tring station and a Virgin train thundered through at full tilt. With that in mind it makes me wonder if there's different rules on different routes, perhaps?

 

[221129]

I popped out last Friday to see the Flying Scotsman as it was on one of the runs through the Chilterns. I went to Haddenham & Thame Parkway to see it, and whilst waiting one of the Mainline trains went through the station, as it doesn't stop there. There's plenty of signs saying about fast trains and not crossing the yellow line, and there was also a station announcement along the same lines.

When the train did go through it was just coasting, and opened up as it got out the other side of the station (I defy anybody to not notice a Class 68 do that). Similarly, the Scotsman was just coasting through and I distinctly heard the regulator opened up as it got out the north side of the station.

It got me wondering what the rules are about trains passing stations. Is there a maximum speed? Does it change? I seem to recall being in Tring station and a Virgin train thundered through at full tilt. With that in mind it makes me wonder if there's different rules on different routes, perhaps?

Line speed alters everywhere.

 

[gazthomas]

Absolutely, there are different rules on different lines and tracks for that matter. Stevenage on the ECML is 110 Mph through the fast lines as an example.

 

[robbeech]

I always thought Stevenage was 125mph.
Sometimes it can be different in different directions. I believe Peterborough is slower on the up fast to the down fast but then the up fast is platform 3. Grantham slows to i think 100mph for the station and Newark is 125mph straight through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty of 125mph running through occupied platforms at Milton Keynes Central I believe. On most other south WCML stations the fast platforms are closed off when not being used, though they aren't actually locked.

 

[TimboM]

At Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford on the WCML between Weaver Jnc and Crewe it's only 2-track through the stations (3 at Acton Bridge, but either side of an island) so all trains pass directly by the platforms. I'm not sure of the exact line speeds but the Pendolinos certainly come through at a rate of knots - believe it's at least 100mph on that stretch.

 

[gazthomas]

I always thought Stevenage was 125mph.
Sometimes it can be different in different directions. I believe Peterborough is slower on the up fast to the down fast but then the up fast is platform 3. Grantham slows to i think 100mph for the station and Newark is 125mph straight through.

Possibly so, but it always seems slower than that. It always tickles me that a yellow line will protect people from a fast train passing.

 

[yorkie]

It got me wondering what the rules are about trains passing stations. Is there a maximum speed?

Up to 125mph, if the track is straight enough, the signalling is up to it, and the permanent way and all associated structures are up to the necessary standard, etc...

And that's why signs say to stand back!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As stated above it varies depending on the station. However for the station mentioned by OP, the maximum line speed through Haddenham & Thame is 100mph, traction permitting of course. It's 100mph at all the Chiltern stations on that stretch of track between and including Bicester North and Wembley Stadium with the exceptions of Princes Risborough (85) and High Wycombe (60).

 

[edwin_m]

The risk is arguably worse for freight trains even though they go more slowly, as the pressure pulses from gaps between wagons and containers can create strong draughts on the platform. There is a recent report on the RAIB website of an incident where a wheelchair with the brakes on was dragged into contact with a passing freight train, and very fortunately was thrown clear without serious injury to the occupant.

 

[SemaphoreSam]

What are the speed limits on the up and down lines for Harrow and Wealdstone?

 

[GB]

Absolutely, there are different rules on different lines and tracks for that matter. Stevenage on the ECML is 110 Mph through the fast lines as an example.

Different speeds same rule. Table "A" linespeed subject to any stock, track (ESR/TSR) or signalling restrictions.

 

[Railops]

When I was working in Kent in 2003 I witnessed a Eurostar at close quarters at over 200 mph near Westenhanger on a test run.
Fastest train I've been close to that was.

 

[louis97]

Absolutely, there are different rules on different lines and tracks for that matter. Stevenage on the ECML is 110 Mph through the fast lines as an example.

Stevenage is 125mph on the fast lines, as detailed in the sectional appendix.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

On most other south WCML stations the fast platforms are closed off when not being used, though they aren't actually locked.

That's much the same between London and Reading where at many stations the island platform between the down Relief and the up Main, platforms 2 + 3 has a fence to stop access to the platform 2 side. When the HSTs were first introduced, British Rail demolished some of the platform 1s on the down Main. Some of these have since been rebuilt, presumably to add flexibility during engineering work.

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI from the group standard it is not a safety requirement to close platforms just because there are 125 mph trains passing, but it does become an absolute requirement above that speed, e.g. for 140 mph running. Of course any platform can be closed where platform width is well below specification, e.g. those WCML slows where people are only allowed on when a train is due. Wembley Central is it?

Where fences have been fitted it is more to do with a deterrent against jumpers.

Just for completeness, the yellow line requirement only comes in at 100 mph for passenger trains, but 60 mph for freight trains because they are not aerodynamic (especially containers as mentioned earlier).

I think a high proportion of yellow line painting is not actually required under the current rules, e.g. in bay platforms which naturally are very low speed.

 

[Johncleesefan]

AIUI from the group standard it is not a safety requirement to close platforms just because there are 125 mph trains passing, but it does become an absolute requirement above that speed, e.g. for 140 mph running. Of course any platform can be closed where platform width is well below specification, e.g. those WCML slows where people are only allowed on when a train is due. Wembley Central is it?

Where fences have been fitted it is more to do with a deterrent against jumpers.

Just for completeness, the yellow line requirement only comes in at 100 mph for passenger trains, but 60 mph for freight trains because they are not aerodynamic (especially containers as mentioned earlier).

I think a high proportion of yellow line painting is not actually required under the current rules, e.g. in bay platforms which naturally are very low speed.

I have always wondered then, I assume the yellow line is painted 2m from the edge of platforms with 125mph lines as in pts 101-125mph is a 2m pos no?

 

[swt_passenger]

I have always wondered then, I assume the yellow line is painted 2m from the edge of platforms with 125mph lines as in pts 101-125mph is a 2m pos no?

No, AIUI the platform lines are only at 1500mm on new construction platforms, often less on older platforms. There has not been a blanket requirement to retrospectively update them.

The group standard is here if anyone wants the full monty, but you'd have to follow cross references to other docs:

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GIGN7616 Iss 2.pdf

 

[3141]

Reading through the posts here, I wonder if, on the occasion the OP refers to, all drivers had been told to pass through stations at a lower speed than normal, because there would be a lot of people waiting to see Flying Scotsman, and someone might do something silly.

 

[steamybrian]

When I was working in Kent in 2003 I witnessed a Eurostar at close quarters at over 200 mph near Westenhanger on a test run.
Fastest train I've been close to that was.

In my opinion- Eurostars do travel at 186mph (300kpm) but such speeds do not appear to be through station platforms. The fast lines at stations such as at Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford (avoiding line) and Calais do not have platforms. At Westenhanger there are no platforms on the segregated Eurostar lines.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Reading through the posts here, I wonder if, on the occasion the OP refers to, all drivers had been told to pass through stations at a lower speed than normal, because there would be a lot of people waiting to see Flying Scotsman, and someone might do something silly.

Highly unlikely. At Haddenham, anything on the up road not stopping will almost certainly be doing 100mph through the platforms unless there is a bit of disruption on the line however on the down road the fast Birmingham often catches the fast Oxford up in that area and will be running a bit slower than usual.

 

[RPM]

Highly unlikely. At Haddenham, anything on the up road not stopping will almost certainly be doing 100mph through the platforms unless there is a bit of disruption on the line however on the down road the fast Birmingham often catches the fast Oxford up in that area and will be running a bit slower than usual.

Absolutely, what Cherry Picker said.

For those not familiar with the signals on that part of the Chiltern Main Line, they are fairly widely spaced and Haddenham sits in the middle of a signal section. So if a fast train passes a yellow just before Haddenham it will be braking as it approaches the station. Once through the road overbridge the next signal becomes clearly visible, so (if showing green) the driver will reapply power as the train passes through the station*

* That is true for class 68-hauled trains, class 168/3 units and indeed Flying Scotsman. Units fitted with ATP (165s, and the other three 168 subclasses) will have to wait a little longer before applying much power because the train needs to pass over the ATP loop in order for the system to know the signal has cleared to green.

 

[driver_m]

At Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford on the WCML between Weaver Jnc and Crewe it's only 2-track through the stations (3 at Acton Bridge, but either side of an island) so all trains pass directly by the platforms. I'm not sure of the exact line speeds but the Pendolinos certainly come through at a rate of knots - believe it's at least 100mph on that stretch.

110 ps/125 eps (tilt)

For the person asking about Harrow & Wealdstone. That's also 110/125 on the fasts.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Absolutely, what Cherry Picker said.

For those not familiar with the signals on that part of the Chiltern Main Line, they are fairly widely spaced and Haddenham sits in the middle of a signal section. So if a fast train passes a yellow just before Haddenham it will be braking as it approaches the station. Once through the road overbridge the next signal becomes clearly visible, so (if showing green) the driver will reapply power as the train passes through the station*

* That is true for class 68-hauled trains, class 168/3 units and indeed Flying Scotsman. Units fitted with ATP (165s, and the other three 168 subclasses) will have to wait a little longer before applying much power because the train needs to pass over the ATP loop in order for the system to know the signal has cleared to green.

That all makes perfect sense then, because a stopping train had been in the station about 5 minutes prior, which I guess must've been the Oxford train. The Mainline train following wasn't doing anything like 100mph (the driver certainly had time to wave to the kids and sound the horn!), and Flying Scotsman was moving at a similar pace. I'd guess they were both doing about 40 through the stations.

From what others said, it explains what I saw in Tring because I was over on the far platform waiting for a London Midland train. I don't know if the Virgin trains stop at Tring at all, because I seem to recall the far platforms being completely empty, but they weren't shut off in any way from what I remember.

Thanks for the answers all

 

[30907]

Although we have the probable explanation for the OP, another generic possibility might be a specific restriction for a class (or loco, for steam) because of a tight clearance.

 

[Hadders]

VTEC,HT and GC all pass through Stevenage at 125mph with some non-stop Cambridge Cruiser and peak hour Peterborough fasts at 100mph for good measure.

Stevenage has two island platforms, one northbound the other southbound. There is no way the fast platforms could be fenced off, there are too many trains using them and it would cause too much congestion for passengers at busy times.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Line speed alters everywhere.

Sorry, what's linespeed? Did you mean permissible speed?

 

[class26]

I always thought Stevenage was 125mph.
Sometimes it can be different in different directions. I believe Peterborough is slower on the up fast to the down fast but then the up fast is platform 3. Grantham slows to i think 100mph for the station and Newark is 125mph straight through.

But there is a 100 mph limit on the flat crossing just north of Newark station so trains are hardly going to do 125 through the station

 

[Railops]

In my opinion- Eurostars do travel at 186mph (300kpm) but such speeds do not appear to be through station platforms. The fast lines at stations such as at Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford (avoiding line) and Calais do not have platforms. At Westenhanger there are no platforms on the segregated Eurostar lines.

I know, I was just saying when I was trackside at close quarters it was the fastest train I'd ever been that close to.

 

[paul1609]

In my opinion- Eurostars do travel at 186mph (300kpm) but such speeds do not appear to be through station platforms. The fast lines at stations such as at Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford (avoiding line) and Calais do not have platforms. At Westenhanger there are no platforms on the segregated Eurostar lines.

However the down platform at Westenhanger around the shelter and the footbridge are probably the closest you can legitimately get to a high speed train at full speed in the UK anyway and it does make people jump!, see https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...:0xbfb657b9d93e0ee8!8m2!3d51.09496!4d1.03808