Failing to Provide Sufficient Seats - Illegal?

[Waverley125]

Given the Railway Regulation Act 1844 required third class passengers to be provided with seats instead of being forced to stand, is failure to provide seats to passengers on a train technically illegal?

 

[Muzer]

Not being a lawyer and not having seen the exact wording, I can't really comment. However, has the law effectively been superseded by the abolition (renaming) of Third Class (to Second Class and then to Standard Class) - did these "new" classes maintain all the legal baggage of Third Class or was it a "fresh start", legally speaking?

 

[jopsuk]

Even if the act did apply- who would you prosecute? And what would the point of doing so be? Do you want of stand at the doors of a train and let no-one on once all the seats are taken?

 

[Hyphen]

is failure to provide seats to passengers on a train technically illegal?

Probably. But then again, I can't think of any stock which doesn't provide seats.

Unless the law specifically states that train companies have to provide a seat to every passenger, I don't think there's an issue. The law was put in place to stop train companies offering cattle-like accommodation where there was no seating and they squeezed in as many people as possible.

 

[michael769]

Hmmm. This act requires that one third class train operates in each direction every day.....

But the requirement is only that all carriages be fitted with seats, not that passengers be provided with one.

 

[yorkie]

Given the Railway Regulation Act 1844 required third class passengers to be provided with seats instead of being forced to stand, is failure to provide seats to passengers on a train technically illegal?

It might be illegal (or at least against contractual agreements!) to operate a train without any seated accommodation, but there's no evidence of any such trains operating (at least not in planned service - there have been some exceptional events such as passengers being conveyed in a HST power car)

All passenger trains convey seats. The difference between trains and coaches is that on coaches you are generally not permitted to stand, so any excess passengers are turned away. On a train, the passenger has the option to stand, or do what they'd do with a coach and wait for the next service.

So if trains were forced to not allow standing, then that would be to the detriment of passengers who currently have that choice. It would also be impossible to enforce.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The 1844 Act introduced a number of controls whereby Government specified certain obligations which the Railways would be obliged to provide (such as the carriage of military armaments and service personnel's family - Section XII, the integration of the railways into the mail delivery system - Section XI, the installation of telegraph lines along railway tracks - Section XIII & XIV, and, the appointment of Inspectors - Section XV).

The section you might be thinking of is Section VI which I quote here, along with the introductory paragraph to the Act:

'Whereas it is expedient that the Concession of Powers for the Establishment of new Lines of Railway should be subjected to such Conditions as are herein-after contained for the benefit of the public :' Be it Enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spritural, Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, That if at any Time after the End of Twenty-One Years from and after the first day of January next after the passing of any Act of the present or of any future session of Parliament for the Construction of any new Line of Passenger Railway, whether that new line be a Trunk, Branch or Junction Line, and whether such new Line be constructed by a new Company incorporated for the Purpose, or by any existing Company, the clear annual profits . . . . shall equal or exceed the Rate of Ten Pounds for every Hundred Pounds of such paid-up Capital Stock, it shall be lawful for the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, subject to the Provisions herein after contained, upon giving to the said Company Three Calendar Months Notice in writing of their intention to do so, to revise the Scale of Tolls, Fares, and Charges limited by the Act or Acts relating to the said Railway, and to fix such new scale of Tolls, Fares and Charges applicable to such different Classes and Kinds of Passengers, Goods and other Traffic on such Railway . . . . .

VI. And whereas it is expedient to secure to the poorer Class of Travellers the Means of travelling by Railway at moderate Fares, and in Carriages in which they may be protected from 'the Weather;' be it enacted, That on and after the several Days herein-after specified all Passenger Railway Companies which shall have been incorporated . . . . shall, be means of One Train at least to travel along their Railway from one End to the other of each Trunk, Branch, or Junction Line belonging to or leased by them, as long as they may continue to carry other Passengers over such Trunk, Branch or Junction Line, once at the least each Way on every Week Day, except Christmas Day and Good Friday (such Exception not to extend to Scotland) provide for the Conveyance of Third Class Passengers to and from the terminal and other ordinary Passenger Stations of the Railway, under the obligations contained in their several Acts of Parliament, and with the Immunities applicable by Law to Carriers of Passengers by Railway ; and also under the following Conditions ; (that is to say,)

Such Train shall start at an Hour to be from Time to Time fixed by the Directors, subject to the approval of the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trades and Plantations :

Such Train shall travel at an average Rate of Speed not less than Twelve Miles per Hour for the Whole Distance travelled on the Railway, including Stoppages:

Such Train shall, if required, take up and set down Passengers at every Passenger Station which it shall pass on the Line:

The Carriages in which Passengers shall be conveyed by such Train shall be provided with Seats, and shall be protected from the Weather, in a manner acceptable to the Lords of said Committee.

The Fare or Charge for each Third Class Passenger by such Train shall not exceed One Penny for each Mile travelled

Each Passenger by such train shall be allowed to take with him Half a Hundred Weight of luggage not being merchandise or other articles carried for Hire or Profit, without extra charge; and any excess of luggage shall be charged by Weight at a Rate not exceeding the lowest Rate of Charge for Passengers Luggage by other Trains.

Children under Three Years of Age accompanying Passengers travelling by such Train shall be taken without any Charge; and Children of Three Years and upwards, but under Twelve Years of Age, at Half the Charge for an Adult Passenger :​

And with respect to all Railways subject to these Obligations which shall be open on or before the First Day of November next, these Obligations shall come into force on said First Day of November next . . . . ;

The only impact of this Section on modern day travel is in a) the provision of that minimum standard of Third Class (now standard class) accommodation on one service a week (formerly one every weekday), and it is an obligation which has become known as a 'Parlimentary Service', reflecting the minimum requirement specified in the Act, and b) the persistence of a Child Fare and free travel for infants.

The Act is silent on the 'sufficiency of seats' beyond specifying "once at the least each way on every weekday" and that it is the "Carriages in which Passengers shall be conveyed by such Train shall be provided with Seats" not that the Passengers shall be provided with seats.

 

[notadriver]

On Eurostar seat reservations are compulsory so everyone has a seat. Are TGVs the same ? Have there been any British trains in the past (apart from Pullmans) where a seat reservation is compulsory ?

 

[philjo]

Yes, reservations are compulsory on TGVs.

one downside of this means that there are no seat reservation labels so you don't know if the empty bay of seats opposite you is empty or if a group will board at the next station (we had missed a connection in Milan once so were told to board the next TGV service to Paris without reservation but we had no way of knowing which seats were not reserved so had to move at least twice during the journey)

In the UK the sleepers are marked in the timetable as reservations compulsory. I think here used to be some summer Saturday services also marked requiring compulsory reservations but I think it just says they are recommended nowadays.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Closest you see over here to compulsory reservations are some of the early evening Virgin services out of Birmingham and London. They state reservations recommended but with an extra footnote saying if you don't have a reservation you may not be permitted to board the train. I don't know if Virgin ever enforce that footnote, though.

The Railway Regulations Act says a train must have seats for the use of passengers- to prevent the train companies using goods wagons, as they initially did- not that each passenger must have a seat.

The modern "parliamentary trains" have nothing to do with this act. They relate to the Transport Act 1962's formal closure process; to avoid the costs involved in this process, train companies run a skeleton service to pretend that the line has not formally closed. Modern parly trains are not forced on TOCs because of an act, they're delivered by TOCs (under DfT instruction) in order to avoid complying with an act.

 

[pemma]

Would the OP prefer the Spanish approach where on medium distance and Intercity services you need to book a seat and if you turn up at the booking office and there are no seats left then you have to travel on a later service?

 

[455driver]

The thread title is wrong anyway as it states sufficient seats whereas the act quoted just states seats as in a few (to prevent freight wagons being used), what it does not say is that there should be enough seats for all passengers.

 

[ji459]

The Railway Regulation Act 1844 was repealed by section 95(1) of the Transport Act 1962 on 1 September 1962. The 1962 Act listed it with others as a "spent and obsolute" enactment.

 

[30mog]

Didn't the ill fated APTs in the 1980s have a no standing policy?

And this being the case. Why shouldn't the same apply to Pendolino's which emerged from improvements to a design sold to Fiat having originally been developed by BR for the APT?