Failure to Pay Penalty Charge

[najaB]

However I don’t see how the action of refusing a Penalty Fare can show intent to refuse all fares.

Despite opinions posted by some members, if a Penalty Fare is charged then that is the fare due for the journey, replacing the normal fare. If the original fare remained the only fare due, what exactly would be the point of Penalty Fares?

(Why didn’t they use a better word than intent when writing the law/s)

It's pretty standard in law in order to distinguish between the actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

 

[some bloke]

I did not understand the consequences of refusing to pay the Penalty Fare has. The member of staff read the Right to Silence, and worked with me through the form. I was not told the consequences of this were potential prosecution.

Does that part need more thought?

Could the prosecution department have reason to think "the situation regarding possible prosecution was clear enough from the form"?

 

[saltthrow]

How can you have firmly believed you paid at the Hatfield barriers? Did you even get as far as the barrier? There is no Oyster/contactless facility there.

I'm just helping you tidy up the semantics of your letter so it's accurate.

I walked up to them and placed my card on the yellow circle and it beeped. I presumed that meant my journey had been terminated, but I think it meant it was invalid. I tried on multiple barriers until the guard said it wasn't valid here.

 

[saltthrow]

Does that part need more thought?

Could the prosecution department have reason to think "the situation regarding possible prosecution was clear enough from the form"?

Maybe, we went through the form fast, I can't remember what the staff member said other than "was it your intention to avoid paying a fare today?" to which I replied "Obviously not".

I can't decide whether to email the prosecutions address still.

 

[some bloke]

I walked up to them and placed my card on the yellow circle and it beeped. I presumed that meant my journey had been terminated, but I think it meant it was invalid. I tried on multiple barriers until the guard said it wasn't valid here.

I'd copy and paste that into the reply, starting with "I walked up to the barrier", to replace the part about being sure you used the card at Hatfield.

we went through the form fast, I can't remember what the staff member said other than "was it your intention to avoid paying a fare today?" to which I replied "Obviously not".

Perhaps say that as well, maybe replacing "Obviously not" by "that I had not. I was surprised at this, because I thought it was clear that I had not"!

I did not understand the consequences of refusing to pay the Penalty Fare has. The member of staff read the Right to Silence, and worked with me through the form. I was not told the consequences of this were potential prosecution. Again, if I was told this, I would have happily paid the Penalty Fare. Upon completing the form, I was given a slip of paper and let through the barriers.

So they didn't give you anything that says they might prosecute?

If you don't now have the form that they went through, can you be sure that it didn't say something about that?

Your draft reads, "I was not told the consequences...were potential prosecution", so if you're not sure what the form said maybe it's worth saying that clearly.

I'd make sure the story is clear before thinking about emailing, so you might want to go through it and think if anything needs clarifying. Again, others may argue for not emailing yet, or for making legal points.

 

[some bloke]

What happens if I refuse to pay the penalty fare?
Firstly you will receive a reminder letter advising you of the money that you owe us.
If you travel on the railway intending not to pay the fare, then you may be prosecuted for fraud...

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/h...t-us/faq/penalty-fares-and-revenue-protection

@saltthrow, when did you first hear about threat of prosecution?

This doesn't mention byelaw or fare evasion prosecutions, or the threat of them, as first steps.

If the options are as they say, I'd find it hard to believe they would claim people who'd started journeys using TfL PAYG would be prosecuted for fraud, rather than at first asked for the £20. It seems to imply everyone will be asked to pay.

Or have I missed something?

It may be that the reason they went through the form quickly was that there was never any chance of their first communication being anything other than a request for the same penalty fare. What might be a bit odd is that you don't seem to have been given the option of paying it in the meantime.

 

[some bloke]

In view of what they say on the website, I'd email/phone/use Twitter, to see if you can get reassurance today.

The idea of prosecuting a bunch of festival-goers who would anyway be charged more for what they did would be a bit silly to begin with.

 

[saltthrow]

I can’t recall exactly what they said regarding prosecution, it was only when I read the tear off slip that says “If fail to carry, passenger to send a copy of their season ticket or Railcard within 14 days to the address below. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution.”

How do I go about ringing / emailing them without potentially incriminating myself?

 

[some bloke]

They're talking about other types of case.

 

[some bloke]

You can simply ask what their policy is.

It could be as a general inquiry, without saying anything about your case - you're asking for clarification about what the website says.

"I'd like to clarify what the website says about what happens when someone refuses to pay a penalty fare. Does it mean that unless someone is prosecuted for fraud, at first you just write asking them to pay it?"

Fraud would be for much more serious/repeated actions, so not at all applicable to your case.

 

[saltthrow]

You can simply ask what their policy is.

It could be as a general inquiry, without saying anything about your case - you're asking for clarification about what the website says.

"I'd like to clarify what the website says about what happens when someone refuses to pay a penalty fare. Does it mean that unless someone is prosecuted for fraud, at first you just write asking them to pay it?"

Fraud would be for much more serious/repeated actions, so not at all applicable to your case.

Thanks, I’m going to wait for their correspondence, but send an email from an account not related to me to enquire about the policy!

I’ll post the results in here

 

[some bloke]

Yes, good to ask rather than offer at this stage. Could you please upload a photo of the slip, with any identifying number etc obscured? It might be helpful in your case, or as background for future cases.

I should have said that the Epsom case (where GTR threatened prosecution) seems to have involved staff withdrawing the offer of a penalty fare, rather than the passenger refusing it.

 

[saltthrow]

Yes, good to ask rather than offer at this stage. Could you please upload a photo of the slip, with any identifying number etc obscured? It might be helpful in your case, or as background for future cases.

I should have said that the Epsom case (where GTR threatened prosecution) seems to have involved staff withdrawing the offer of a penalty fare, rather than the passenger refusing it.

I'll post a picture when I can.

I did think that, by signing it instead of paying whether I've really put my foot in it. The communication was non-existent as to why we had to pay. One of the party I was in actually spoke to the staff giving the penalties and had it explained to him, and he then paid, but was through the gate before he could tell us the situation.

 

[saltthrow]

I just got off of the phone with Great Northern customer services, who said that a bill / request for money will be sent first, not dissimilar to a parking charge. I'm hoping this was correct information from them and that they didn't just misunderstand my question. I might try and contact GTR or IRIS and see if they can explain. This has settled my nerves somewhat but I am still not convinced.

 

[some bloke]

Yes, best to get it in writing. You could email the prosecution department address you have, giving your reference number, the website's words, the exact words from customer services if you are sure of them, the fact that this was the festival weekend and others were in the same situation, and the fact that this has been causing you and perhaps your SO distress and possibly illness - so you would be grateful for a reply by the end of the day.

 

[some bloke]

You could copy that to Customer Services or whoever else you choose, to try and get an early answer.

Another option is to phone again and ask them if they would mind you recording the conversation; then confirm their permission after you start recording.

What I'm doing here is not just to try and ensure the position is clear, but also that you can relax by the end of the day.

 

[some bloke]

I have no idea how possible it might be in theory for the company to lawfully threaten or start prosecution after giving the impression that they would simply write. Maybe consumer law would have something to do with it in view of the fact that passengers can see GTR's apparent policy before choosing to buy their tickets.

The point is to - in what seem very reasonable circumstances - ask them for reassurance, which may be difficult for them to go back on in what is a relatively trivial case for reasons of legality, PR and/or the prospect of getting told off in court.

If you get an answer agreeing in your specific case to you both paying the penalty fares, that would be a bonus.

 

[saltthrow]

Here's the slip I got given. Currently drafting my email to customer services / GTR Prosecutions. I don't really want to use my name/slip ID.

I might just ask them to clarify the policy.

 

[some bloke]

Thanks. That seems to be a slip authorising a person to travel when they haven't got their season ticket or railcard. Either it's the wrong form or it's a multi-purpose form. But it says to send to the prosecution department. What do they expect you to send?

 

[saltthrow]

Thanks. That seems to be a slip authorising a person to travel when they haven't got their season ticket or railcard. Either it's the wrong form or it's a multi-purpose form. But it says to send to the prosecution department. What do they expect you to send?

That's what I didn't understand, If was (according to them) travelling without a valid ticket or intending to dodge a fare, what could I send them to prove otherwise, I don't have a season ticket (never travelled that route before) or a railcard? It also mentions the date, but has not got one written on, so I'm not sure how I could work out 14 days after the event if I had forgotten the date of the incident.

I was going to send this email to the prosecutions department (without my name on). Contacting Great Northern requires your name so I'm not sure how to go about that yet.

To whom it may concern:

I am writing to seek some clarification to your policy on Refusing to Pay a Penalty Fare (link: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/h...t-us/faq/penalty-fares-and-revenue-protection). I'd like to clarify what the website says about what happens when someone refuses to pay a penalty fare. Does it mean that unless someone is prosecuted for fraud, at first you send correspondence asking them to pay it?

On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used my contactless card to start the journey. In Hatfield that day, there was a day festival occurring (Slam Dunk Festival). Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy as lots of festival-goers arrived to attend said festival. I did not exit the station at the open gate (for crowd control), as I needed to complete my journey on the contactless machines. Upon walking up to the Hatfield barriers and tapping my card on the yellow circle, the gate did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. Upon questioning why, no clear answer was given. The member of staff was dealing with multiple people in the same situation as I was, and the information was not relayed. I now understand that Hatfield is outside of the Oyster zones, and was therefore unable to use my contactless card to complete my journey. If this would have been explained, I would have paid the Penalty Fare. However, in the large crowds of people being denied access through the gates, raised noise levels and commotion, communication broke down and this information was not presented to me. I was told to speak to another member of staff about exiting the gate without paying. I was also charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date.

During the festival, there were many others in the same situation, with limited information being relayed to us.

I have never evaded my fare before, travelled without a ticket or tried to deceive anyone and I am truly sorry for my actions and can assure you there will never be a repeat. This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. If there is any possibility of paying the penalty fare now, I will happily do so.

This incident has been causing me great distress, and I wish to resolve it as soon as possible.

Yours Sincerely.

 

[jumble]

In view of what they say on the website, I'd email/phone/use Twitter, to see if you can get reassurance today.

The idea of prosecuting a bunch of festival-goers who would anyway be charged more for what they did would be a bit silly to begin with.

Only the extra that they were charged would not be used to pay GTR but would presumably stay with TFL
I am not convinced that if I were running this business that I would concern myself about how much the customer without a ticket paid someone else.

 

[some bloke]

Only the extra that they were charged would not be used to pay GTR but would presumably stay with TFL
I am not convinced that if I were running this business that I would concern myself about how much the customer without a ticket paid someone else.

I think that point has been catered for above. The question is also about whether anyone would knowingly try to evade if they had some idea Hatfield was a short distance and so likely to involve a fare less than the TfL max. fare.

Since companies are only supposed to ask for their actual costs, they might do better from the penalty fares than from settlements.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Have you actually provided them with your details at any point?

 

[saltthrow]

Have you actually provided them with your details at any point?

Only my ID when I filled out the form.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Only my ID when I filled out the form.

What ID?

 

[saltthrow]

What ID?

Sorry, my driving licence

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry, my driving licence

Right, so did they write anything down from that?

 

[saltthrow]

Right, so did they write anything down from that?

Name and address. Although it's my now old address, I have my post forwarded for 6 months.

 

[some bloke]

I was going to send this email to the prosecutions department...

You may be worrying far too much. Please don't send an anonymous email with that amount of detail in the story!

I would first send them something very short, that's easier for them to digest and reply to quickly.

Someone on here may recognise the slip, but as it is, it's strange that it doesn't say anything about penalty fares. It may not be beyond imagination that it's the wrong form.

The fastest way might be to start a new Twitter account, upload the photo and ask them whether it's the right form. If it is, then you can ask them about the policy.

 

[some bloke]

Here's another reason not to worry too much.

As there have been proud announcements about Hatfield coming within the TfL area, it would be bad PR for the company to come down hard on people who thought it already was. This is from 2016:

Oyster card coming to Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar

https://www.whtimes.co.uk/motoring/...arden-city-hatfield-and-potters-bar-1-4614704