[Fantasy] A new tube line for South London

[Waverley125]

thinking about the congestion in south London, with the mix of both fast and slow passenger services into the centre, is it time to convert much of the south london suburban rail network to tube operation?

In addition to a few ideas I've seen proposed:

-Extending the Northern line from Kennington to Clapham Junction via Battersea

-Extending the Northern line from Morden to Sutton

-Extending the Bakerloo line from Elephant & Castle to Hayes via Camberwell and Lewisham

I'd like to suggest a few ideas of my own.


The first, main section of tunnelling would occur along the south bank of the Thames, and would run from South Bermondsey to Clapham Junction via St Johns, New Cross, Bermondsey, London Bridge, Blackfriars, Waterloo, Vauxhall & Queenstown Road.

Beyond here, there would be two branches of lines, taking over the slow lines, and all stations on existing surface lines

EAST

South Bermondsey-Dartford via Greenwich
South Bermondsey-Thamesmead via Lewisham & Blackheath South
South Bermondsey-Dartford via Lewisham & Bexleyheath

WEST

Clapham Junction-Sutton via Balham, Tooting and Wimbledon
Clapham Junction-Epsom via Mitcham Junction
Claphan Junction-Epsom Down via West Croydon
Clapham Junction-East Croydon

Also, the SLL to be extended from Peckham Rye to East Croydon via Dulwich

 

[tbtc]

is it time to convert much of the south london suburban rail network to tube operation?

Part of the problem has always been the quality of the ground south of the Thames - which is partly why most services are "Overground".

I don't know whether the technology has improved to allow this better nowadays though.

There are certainly a lot of "short" branches south of the Thames that are tempting for conversion (to free up platform space at Waterloo/ Victoria etc for longer distance trains) - I can see why people also want a Crossrail Two to try to take over some of these branches for similar reasons.

It'll be interesting to see how the East London Line extension to Clapham Junction encourages The Powers That Be to invest in other upgrades south of the Thames.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd reckon modern tunnelling would cope with south London. But in that case, what's really needed are better, dedicated, faster routes for longer distance services where these currently share tracks with local services, and perhaps some deconvolution of service patterns, to allow the existing south London rail network to be more or less converted to tube-like service levels. Yes, extend the tube lines south, possibly taking over some surface routes, but otherwise , as central termini are inefficient for high frequency, high load, services, match south London Metro lines to north London ones (Great Northern, LTS, Lee Valley Lines, Watford DC, Chiltern?) and dig ever more Crossrail schemes .

Or for my fantasy scheme, do all this, but bury all the lines, to give a weatherproof London Underground system covering the whole city (one brand, no "Overground" or "Crossrail" no matter what sized stock or power source) with the long distance lines buried too (rising just before the termini/coming out the existing tunnel portals into weather proof canopies) with the old routes turned into linear parks and true cycle super highways.

 

[Mojo]

I've always felt sorry for people in south London who have a generally inferior service provided by the Tocs (and BR/NSE before that) in comparison to those north of the river who get a much better service on the Underground. Of course there are a few better off because of fast services, but it is a bit of an unfortunate situation.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

What I think would be a good call is if they extended the ELL from New cross to Dartford via Bexleyheath then the other line via Hither green and Crayford then the Woolwich Arsenal line can be completely taken over by overground from Cannon street/Charing cross. You can then just reduce the number of southeastern services to a few per hour via Bexleyheath for those travelling from London Bridge

 

[trentside]

I've always felt sorry for people in south London who have a generally inferior service provided by the Tocs (and BR/NSE before that) in comparison to those north of the river who get a much better service on the Underground. Of course there are a few better off because of fast services, but it is a bit of an unfortunate situation.

And it's somewhat ironic considering that the first true 'Tube' was in fact built to the south of the river. No doubt the difficult ground conditions made any repeat of this sceme unattractive, but I had to agree that the rail network in South London is convoluted and confusing (especially to outsiders!).

A common proposal is also to extend the Victoria line in a loop under Herne Hill and the extension of the Bakerloo out towards Lewisham and then taking over the Hayes services, along with a short branch to Beckenham Junction.

 

[jopsuk]

It is the service patterns, rather than the infrastructure, that is generally the problem in south London. SWT's services are fairly simple, but Southern and Southeastern, with multiple termini, are a mess of interlocking services. If there were simpler services, running at tube frequencies, on easily defined lines marked on the Tube map, it would help

 

[mr_jrt]

I've heard it pointed out that whilst the ground conditions are a factor, far more of a factor was the ownership of the land.

North of the river was where the ancient cities of Westminster and London grew from, and aside from the obvious corporation of London and the crown, much of the land was owned by the aristocracy who were opposed to any nasty new-fangled railways across their land, let alone the simple fact that the built-up area was mostly north of the river. South of the river most of the land was owned by either the church or the poor and was still scattered settlements until the railways came. Much more amenable to having it bought off them or just paid off to silence their complaints, so no need to have expensive underground tunnels when you could just run across the surface.

As for proposals, here's an old experimental map I was working on once that covers the whole south east, but it shows my proposals for south-east London clearly enough, though it's a bit out of date as my thoughts have continued to develop on the topic.

 

[LE Greys]

It is the service patterns, rather than the infrastructure, that is generally the problem in south London. SWT's services are fairly simple, but Southern and Southeastern, with multiple termini, are a mess of interlocking services. If there were simpler services, running at tube frequencies, on easily defined lines marked on the Tube map, it would help

It doesn't help that they are a bodge from three different companies, some of which worked out of more than one terminus. The London, Chatham and Dover Railway started off by grabbing a slice of Victoria, then built its own terminus at Blackfriars without selling its stake in Victoia, then extended to Holburn Viaduct. The South Eastern progressively stretched itself to Charing Cross, but expanded to Cannon Street partly because of lack of space and partly because of a fight with the LC&DR over the City. Meanwhile, the London, Brighton & South Coast shared Victoria with the LC&DR and London Bridge with the SER. All in all, a right old mess.

Incidentally, in checking the details on this on Wikipedia, it seems the SER wanted to build a version of Thameslink in the 1860s, a direct link to Euston, but it never happened. Can anyone verify this?

 

[MCR247]

It is the service patterns, rather than the infrastructure, that is generally the problem in south London. SWT's services are fairly simple, but Southern and Southeastern, with multiple termini, are a mess of interlocking services. If there were simpler services, running at tube frequencies, on easily defined lines marked on the Tube map, it would help

The SE network map doesn't even do anything to help..

As for proposals, here's an old experimental map I was working on once that covers the whole south east, but it shows my proposals for south-east London clearly enough, though it's a bit out of date as my thoughts have continued to develop on the topic.

That looks really interesting, I'll have to look at it in proper detail tomorrow
What program did you use to make it, out of interest?

 

[ert47]

I still find it funny that people presume that if you don't live near a station on the Underground map, then you live miles away/you dont live in London.

 

[si404]

I still find it funny that people presume that if you don't live near a station on the Underground map, then you live miles away/you dont live in London.

You non-Londoner you!

Si, Amersham

Oh wait, Croydon somehow moved into London when the ELL reopened...

 

[LE Greys]

You non-Londoner you!

Si, Amersham

Oh wait, Croydon somehow moved into London when the ELL reopened...

If it's inside the M25 it's got to be in London, no matter where the Greater London boundary is. Yes, that's right Watford!

 

[mr_jrt]

That looks really interesting, I'll have to look at it in proper detail tomorrow
What program did you use to make it, out of interest?

Cheers. Made in Inkscape.

 

[Wolfie]

You non-Londoner you!

Si, Amersham

Oh wait, Croydon somehow moved into London when the ELL reopened...

Tramlink.....

 

[Ivo]

I still find it funny that people presume that if you don't live near a station on the Underground map, then you live miles away/you dont live in London.

Croydon somehow moved into London when the ELL reopened...

Tramlink.....

Tramlink isn't on the Tube map. The only indication of it even existing is a tram interchange symbol at Wimbledon.

 

[Class172]

Tramlink isn't on the Tube map. The only indication of it even existing is a tram interchange symbol at Wimbledon.

They might be referring to the London connections map perhaps.

 

[si404]

Who is the 'they' there? Neither I, nor ert47 were referring to anything but the tube map.

 

[OxtedL]

Who is the 'they' there? Neither I, nor ert47 were referring to anything but the tube map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

 

[Deerfold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

That doesn't help if you can't find a single entity to attatch it to though.

 

[OxtedL]

That doesn't help if you can't find a single entity to attatch it to though.

Fortunately in this case there clearly is someone who the 'they' could be referring to.

 

[Deerfold]

Fortunately in this case there clearly is someone who the 'they' could be referring to.

Must be half asleep. Think I'll turn in now.

 

[Ivo]

Ah, the brilliant nonsense of English Grammar

For the record, as you can probably all tell the word "they" refers to Wolfie - but I would expect that his suggestion of "Tramlink" was only in jest anyway.

 

[Class172]

Oh dear, what have I started? hock:

Ivo, you've changed your avatar!

 

[OxtedL]

Oh dear, what have I started? hock:

Ivo, you've changed your avatar!

It was kind of horrifically irrelevant anyway, as regardless of whether or not the connections map came into it, the tube map was very much the only map being talked about.

I believe the avatar may well be in light of a recent Cartesian related announcement.

 

[Wolfie]

Tramlink isn't on the Tube map. The only indication of it even existing is a tram interchange symbol at Wimbledon.

You are actually correct, which surprised me. The last time I looked I pulled up this one, which I guess is the latest "Connections" map as someone alluded to earlier.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

 

[raseeh]

If I were to create a fantasy line, with no budget issues, I would propose the
'Palace' Line
It would start at wood green, take over the Mill-Hill Northern Line, Take over the Rail line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, St. Paul's, Blackfriars, Southwark,Elephant and Castle,Walworth,Peckham,Peckham Rye, Dulwich,Crystal Palace,Anerly, and a take over of the tram Branch via Addiscombe to East Croydon

It would effectively act as a new North-South Line, relieving the Northern,Piccadilly lines, provide services to Mill Hill,Walworth,Peckham,Dulwich and Anerly, and connect two emerging town centers.

 

[CarltonA]

I thought Croydon moved into London in 1964.

 

[Deerfold]

I thought Croydon moved into London in 1964.

And the relevance of that?

It still didn't get a tube line.

 

[CarltonA]

The relevance being that posters were saying that Croydon moved into London when the ELL arrived or when Tramlink appeared. I was merely pointing out when Croydon ceased to be in Surrey and became part of London.