Fantasy: How would you make a Trans-London Intercity service?

[backontrack]

It would be one where no single flow is particularly dominant, but there would be lots of smaller, overlapping flows. Croydon, Gatwick and Brighton are pretty big demand drivers - no real equivalents on, say, c2c or Southeastern.

I wonder if there's a way to better connect Essex to the network given how c2c currently runs into Fenchurch Street. I think better connectivity to Stratford could be useful; maybe a through service from Southend/Shoeburyness to somewhere like Highbury & Islington might accomplish something. Although maybe not.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I wonder if there's a way to better connect Essex to the network given how c2c currently runs into Fenchurch Street. I think better connectivity to Stratford could be useful; maybe a through service from Southend/Shoeburyness to somewhere like Highbury & Islington might accomplish something. Although maybe not.

If running a regular service between Barking and Stratford were practicable, it would make more sense to extend the London Overground service.

Watford to the GWML isn't possible without a reversal.

It is via Acton Canal Wharf Junction.

 

[HS2isgood]

Maybe post-HS2 it could be fitted in on the WCML, however not sure about path to Brighton. I agree it would be popular though.

Is there a thread about the WCML post-HS2? It'd be an interesting discussion to have, the new paths may allow things like hourly Shrewsbury, which finally would gain a decent London service. (Stops at Coventry, New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge and Wolves?)

IMO the Milton-Clapham(-East Croydon, idk if it's been restored, but seems like a pointless extension) is useful because Clapham junction is the most important junction that's not a major destination by itself, with two mainlines passing through it. There's really not such a destination in the other cross-London routes. It'd be interesting to have 2tph Clapham Junction-Milton Keynes. (Or instead of it, Brum-Brighton)

 

[A0]

The biggest problem with anything running via the West London Line is it's so slow.

It takes 30 mins to get from Harrow & Wealdstone to Clapham Junction via the WLL.

Whereas you can get from H&W to Euston in 15 mins, 6 stops on the Victoria Line and then 5 mins from Vauxhall to Clapham Jnc.

This is why for longer distance services e.g. MK to Brighton it's quicker to go via Euston & Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem with anything running via the West London Line is it's so slow.

It takes 30 mins to get from Harrow & Wealdstone to Clapham Junction via the WLL.

Whereas you can get from H&W to Euston in 15 mins, 6 stops on the Victoria Line and then 5 mins from Vauxhall to Clapham Jnc.

This is why for longer distance services e.g. MK to Brighton it's quicker to go via Euston & Victoria.

This is very true, but being operated with quite nice Electrostars with lots of tables, you can plonk yourself in a seat, get your laptop out and get some work done. Journey time is not everything. To give a similar example, to get from MK to Edinburgh is slightly quicker by air than rail, but you have pretty much 4.5 hours straight to sit on the train and work, whereas by air it's lots of broken-up short periods which are far less useful.

Also there's a considerable discount for going via Kenny O on many journeys.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I have two suggestions:

1. A Victoria to Paddington tunnel-this would link OOC directly with the BML and provide onward connections to Gatwick-as well as free Paddington from Thames Valley services.

2. Route HS2 via Heathrow Hub, and build a HS line from there to somewhere near Woking. This, along with a "Euston Cross" style station, would allow SWML trains to run directely though London via Euston, and onto HS1 down to Kent.

 

[BayPaul]

I've wondered a few times about a 'South Bank Crossrail' - building a chord through Waterloo station (I believe this existed up to 1911), connecting the SWR lines (probably the Windsor Lines) with the SE lines through Waterloo East. Although it would be hugely expensive, I suspect that it would create additional capacity on both routes, as services that currently terminate at Waterloo or Charing Cross would connect together, saving on platform occupancy. This would also create some of the SE to SW connections that are being discussed here, but with the train still calling at London Bridge and Waterloo, so still catering to central London passengers.

 

[backontrack]

I've wondered a few times about a 'South Bank Crossrail' - building a chord through Waterloo station (I believe this existed up to 1911), connecting the SWR lines (probably the Windsor Lines) with the SE lines through Waterloo East. Although it would be hugely expensive, I suspect that it would create additional capacity on both routes, as services that currently terminate at Waterloo or Charing Cross would connect together, saving on platform occupancy. This would also create some of the SE to SW connections that are being discussed here, but with the train still calling at London Bridge and Waterloo, so still catering to central London passengers.

I'd agree that this is probably the best way to do it.

It'd be eye-wateringly expensive, but would no doubt add a lot of resilience to the southern network as a whole.

 

[JonathanH]

Although it would be hugely expensive, I suspect that it would create additional capacity on both routes, as services that currently terminate at Waterloo or Charing Cross would connect together, saving on platform occupancy.

Isn't the problem with this idea that unless you could achieve a grade separated junction on both routes by 'going over the top', it actually wouldn't generate that much extra capacity on either route. Moreover, grade separation needs space for the junctions.

A bit fantastical I fear for very limited benefit.

It'd be eye-wateringly expensive, but would no doubt add a lot of resilience to the southern network as a whole.

Transmission of delays from one route to another does not increase resilience.

 

[HST43257]

Slightly different from the initial question, but I’d have an underground route for high speed services from Old Oak Common to Euston Cross to Stratford International, with a high speed route to Heathrow as well. Not sure how to handle this but journeys wouldn’t be possible between any of the 3 central stations.

This opens up possibilities for HS2 -> Eurostar services if at all possible.

There could also be a link to an upgraded GWML, running at at least 140mph west towards Cardiff and Bristol. There’d be extra capacity too as I’d replace the Heathrow Express with a Crossrail semifast service on the slow lines as a result of the high speed link from the high speed tunnel to Heathrow.

At Stratford International there’d be a new high speed route up to Cambridge, calling only at Stansted Airport on the way. Services on this branch would go to Heathrow on the high speed route I said about above. This would mean that the WAML had more stopping capacity, with 2tph Liverpool Street to Stansted being kept, but both would be calling at all current regular Stansted Express stops, plus Cheshunt and Broxbourne. It’d also mean that there’s a Heathrow to Stansted regular direct services, and as part of my idea to cut most domestic flights, these’d be the only 2 London airports left open (maybe also Gatwick).

 

[cle]

I do think the Croydon / Gatwick / Brighton arc is the only one south of the river which would be viable for service from north of London.

Where 2 or 3 worthy destinations lie in a nice succession, I'd say the next best group is Woking/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton, or Woking/Guildford, but the former is a much longer journey, and XC covers this. I guess this would also run via Clapham Junction. Windsor Lines are easier though, but even fuller.

I also doubt high frequency demand north of Milton Keynes, and I'm even skeptical there. Are the good people of Tring or Hemel going to Gatwick often? MKC itself would still be best off via a fast to Euston.

The very first thing for any growth or success would be addressing clean access from the WLL to the Brighton Fasts, be it a dive-under somewhere around Clapham Junction or another way. Otherwise the service remains local.

So, and using platform 10 at Watford:

>> infrastructure as today:
2-4tph Watford Junction - WLL - Clapham Junction (run by LO) - paths towards East Croydon released to more Victoria trains.

>> with Brighton fasts access / dive under:
2tph Watford Junction - WLL - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - xyz pattern to Brighton. If popular, extend to Milton Keynes, especially once EWR opens with a Bletchley call.

 

[Thebaz]

I honestly think we've missed a trick with Crossrail. I must admit when I first heard about it years ago I thought the point of it was to link "Intercity" services between west and east! If we reduced the number of proposed metro services through the centre and continue to turn them at Liverpool St and Paddington we could easily run a few expresses on the route Norwich-Ipswich....Stratford - Central London all stops - Hayes (for Heathrow shuttle)- Reading...Bristol-Cardiff/Exeter.

 

[JonathanH]

I honestly think we've missed a trick with Crossrail. I must admit when I first heard about it years ago I thought the point of it was to link "Intercity" services between west and east! If we reduced the number of proposed metro services through the centre and continue to turn them at Liverpool St and Paddington we could easily run a few expresses on the route Norwich-Ipswich....Stratford - Central London all stops - Hayes (for Heathrow shuttle)- Reading...Bristol-Cardiff/Exeter.

No. There is no way that would sensibly work and it wouldn't be 'easy'.

For a start, the rolling stock requirements differ between long distance services and the sort of trains which run multiple stops between Paddington and Stratford.

There is an interesting point to discuss about the sort of rolling stock which would be suitable for fantasy cross-London journeys and the value to anyone of running this through London.

>> with Brighton fasts access / dive under:
2tph Watford Junction - WLL - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - xyz pattern to Brighton. If popular, extend to Milton Keynes, especially once EWR opens with a Bletchley call.

Not quite sure what relevance EWR really has on this one. Bedford already has a connection to the Brighton line somewhat better than going via Bletchley and Oxford to the Brighton line can be done via Reading.

Good luck designing a dive under for this service in the Clapham Junction area (or finding funding). I think you are right that this service stays local.

 

[BayPaul]

Birmingham Snow Hill to Southend via Baker Street and Barking anyone? Using a class 230 with a pantograph added. OK, a few minor rail links would be needed to join NR and LUL tracks together, but it sounds very plausible to me, and gives another seaside link to Birmingham!

I honestly think we've missed a trick with Crossrail. I must admit when I first heard about it years ago I thought the point of it was to link "Intercity" services between west and east! If we reduced the number of proposed metro services through the centre and continue to turn them at Liverpool St and Paddington we could easily run a few expresses on the route Norwich-Ipswich....Stratford - Central London all stops - Hayes (for Heathrow shuttle)- Reading...Bristol-Cardiff/Exeter.

Very simple to do, and entirely possible - just as long as you don't mind using class 345 trains - just extend the service from Reading to Cardiff.

 

[Bigman]

I would like to see the Thameslink service from Brighton to Peterborough extended through to Leeds or York once an hour. This could then act as a regular clock-face hourly service from London to Grantham, Newark and Retford. This would in turn speed up the LNER services which could have less stops. Needless to say, they would need to use proper InterCity standard units that don't have ironing board seats.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Build a tunnel linking London Liverpool Street to London Bridge to allow services to East Anglia from Kent and Sussex, also a Friday afternoon service from Ashford International to Whitby, Ashford - London Bridge - Liverpool Street - Cambridge - Peterborough then fast to Whitby for when I visit Uncle Sid.

 

[BayPaul]

Do the services have to go straight across London, or would L shape do? Something like Southend to Cambridge (reversing at Liverpool Street) or Southampton to Margate (via the Arun Valley, reversing at London Bridge) sound quite possible, although I can't imagine there being much of a market for the latter in particular.

 

[Bigman]

The sad thing is that this did used to happen. I once got a train from Manchester Piccadilly direct to Dover Western Docks. Naturally, it went round from Willesden Jcn round to Wandsworth Road. There were also Manchester to Brighton services.

 

[Grumbler]

Extend the Norwich - London services to Bristol via the Elizabeth Line.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m not sure what a cross city intercity line through London would do to benefit anyone. For it to be intercity, it needs to be accessed by either Avanti, EMR, LNER, GWR or Eurostar (Norwich to London just about qualifies). Everything else in to London is a regional commuter service for the south east, even if it originates in the Midlands like Chiltern or LNW.

So, the only proper Intercity route that would be of a benefit, would be a HS1-HS2 link, but such a service would need a dedicated platform at it’s U.K. destinations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure what a cross city intercity line through London would do to benefit anyone. For it to be intercity, it needs to be accessed by either Avanti, EMR, LNER, GWR or Eurostar (Norwich to London just about qualifies). Everything else in to London is a regional commuter service for the south east, even if it originates in the Midlands like Chiltern or LNW.

So, the only proper Intercity route that would be of a benefit, would be a HS1-HS2 link, but such a service would need a dedicated platform at it’s U.K. destinations.

I suppose it depends what definition you use of the term "intercity". Certainly "InterCity" has a reasonable definition - anything operated under that brand in BR days - but the District Line is an inter-city railway (City of London and Westminster), so is a 150 that calls at both Salford Central and Manchester Victoria, as is Thameslink (St Albans, City of London, Brighton). Clearly that's not what's meant, but perhaps it does need defining.

 

[cle]

Not quite sure what relevance EWR really has on this one. Bedford already has a connection to the Brighton line somewhat better than going via Bletchley and Oxford to the Brighton line can be done via Reading.

Good luck designing a dive under for this service in the Clapham Junction area (or finding funding). I think you are right that this service stays local.

EWR - more that Bletchley would become more of an overall rail hub and might be worth serving if running to MKC also. I take your point on Bedford of course.

It's against the spirit of this thread but I think it's better as a London Overground route, semi-fast up the WCML. It skips Bushey now, I'm not sure if the line traffic would allow 4tph and all calling at Wembley. If that frequency was doable, I'd think Willesden platforms worthwhile - to have all WLL services stop there, even if a lower level set-up.

 

[60019]

I've wondered a few times about a 'South Bank Crossrail' - building a chord through Waterloo station (I believe this existed up to 1911), connecting the SWR lines (probably the Windsor Lines) with the SE lines through Waterloo East. Although it would be hugely expensive, I suspect that it would create additional capacity on both routes, as services that currently terminate at Waterloo or Charing Cross would connect together, saving on platform occupancy. This would also create some of the SE to SW connections that are being discussed here, but with the train still calling at London Bridge and Waterloo, so still catering to central London passengers.

I suspect that would cause a lot of congestion at Waterloo East, even if you can separate out a pair of lines to run across the link from the SW side, unless you closed Charing Cross.

A more expensive, but more useful, project would be underground loops linking the city and west end SR stations, which would allow services to be disentangled in south London without losing anyone's single-seat journey. The problem is I can't see anywhere sensible to launch TBMs or build ramps without a lot of demolition.