Fantasy idea: opening new Line for Everton & Liverpool

[Ivo]

How has the Metro affected the SportsDirect.com Arena?

Pretty well I expect - because they still use the correct name

Seriously, the last few months aside, it's cut a few hundred metres off the walk, and probably no time saving allowing for waiting. In other words, I doubt it has had much effect at all.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Maybe it should be noted Shrewsbury Town's New Meadow is a good mile and a half from Shrewsbury station and still has gets very nice attendances for a club of its size. Ditto Reading FC from Reading / Reading West. Ditto Wycombe Wanderers and High Wycombe. See where I'm going?

 

[jon0844]

BTW, Drayton Park is not used on a Saturday. But on weekdays it does shift a few thousands fans.

It does? I always thought they closed the station on match days/nights for safety reasons.

I suppose some fans may be able to use it very early/late when it re-opens.

And as for Spurs, my take is that the club was playing a bit of a game with the local authority (Haringey Council) and the Mayor of London, TfL etc. I am pretty convinced they wanted to build a new ground at WHL, and Haringey Council was quite keen to have that happen. Likewise, I suspect all the fans do/did too.

However, as with Arsenal, the council put in lots of clauses and requirements to pay for upgrades and facilities in the area as a condition of planning consent. Therefore, Spurs had to act like it had other options, like the Olympic stadium - which ultimately had Haringey drop a lot of its requirements.. by which time, Spurs 'reluctantly' agreed. Yes, Stratford has good transport links thanks to the Olympics, but I'm not sure they seriously wanted to move from Tottenham. For what it's worth, the current ground has pretty good transport links with plenty of options - as well as quite a few places to park that aren't hundreds of miles away.

This might be a crazy conspiracy theory, but it's what I've heard and it makes a lot of sense. No club wants to pay for loads of things outside its ground. That's for the tax payer!!

 

[Wolfie]

It does? I always thought they closed the station on match days/nights for safety reasons.

I suppose some fans may be able to use it very early/late when it re-opens.
And as for Spurs, my take is that the club was playing a bit of a game. I am pretty convinced they wanted to build a new ground at WHL, and Haringey Council was quite keen to have that happen.

However, as with Arsenal, the council wanted to put in lots of clauses and requirements to pay for upgrades and facilities in the area. Therefore, Spurs had to act like it had other options, like the Olympic stadium - which ultimately had Haringey drop a lot of its requirements.. by which time, Spurs 'reluctantly' agreed.

This might be a crazy conspiracy theory, but it's what I've heard and it makes a lot of sense. No club wants to pay for loads of things outside its ground. That's for the tax payer!!

You were correct - the comment about this is about as well informed as the rest of the stuff from the OP! Drayton Park is closed on Arsenal match days. I know this because I lived on Drayton Park (the road not the station!) for 10 years.......

 

[theblackwatch]

What interest have you got from the local council/PTE/football clubs in these ideas/proposals?

 

[ushawk]

Most who "support" a club do not go to the games. They are TV supporters. Making it easy to get to and from will encourage those who normally nor go and the likes of dads take their boys. That is just the way it is. Give em the access and facilities and they turn up.

QPR have a tiny old fashioned "ground". All this footy comparison talk distracts from the point that Arsenal's success is because of the 25 platforms around the top quality stadium. Hint: Highbury was an old dump, Emirates is state of the art.

So most football supporters now are armchair fans and only decide to go to a club if there are good transport links ? I will say for a small amount of people, that it is true - but for the rest of it, it is a load of rubbish. May as well say i support Brighton, not because its my local club - but because its 20 minutes away by train and easy to get to. Falmer station serves our stadium, which has 2 platforms and a train to Lewes and Brighton each way every 10 or so minutes before and after matches, it hit on average a 20,000 attendance this season and 80% of fans use sustainable transport to get there (includes Trains, Park and Ride, Coaches, Buses and Walking/Cycling) and the train is the most used method (just look at the queues after a match).

Arsenal were once the top club in England and were one of the best in the world, THAT is how they got their fan base, not because their stadium is conveniently next to a few stations.

QPRs stadium may be a dump, but if your point that a club is well supported because of transport links, then they will have full attendances week in, week out in any league.

 

[Ivo]

Here's a little thought. If stadia are filled based on platform availability within a small radius, shouldn't Wembley be selling out day-in, day-out?
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Arsenal were once the top club in England and were one of the best in the world, THAT is how they got their fan base, not because their stadium is conveniently next to a few stations.

Let's convert this to Man City. The nearest station is the quiet Ashburys, which is some distance from the stadium (granted, the Metrolink will serve it soon). It was built before the Big Bang scheme was seriously proposed, and now regularly tops out - because City are [now] a successful club! If clubs need en masse railway access, how are they selling so many seats?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Firstly it was a slow infrequent steam service and not a loop in those days - closed in 1960. There was no interchange station at Broad Green. .

Labour/Militant? :roll: It is not the 1980s any more.

Broad Green as an interchange would mean people having to change trains to continute their journey as opposed to a direct bus journey. A curve from the loop to join the line to Lime St would be prohibitively expensive given the layout of the area and would involve demolishing a substantial amount of the suburb of Broad Green.

In the 80's it was Labour/Militant in the 90's it was Liberal Democrat/Liberal... anything that is ever proposed has it's backers and a vociferous opposition. You will never get a city council in Liverpool to agree to anything it will fragment into factions. Councillors often defect to another party at will and any major initiatives get lost amid a sea of infighting and backbiting.

 

[inner-city]

Maybe it should be noted Shrewsbury Town's New Meadow is a good mile and a half from Shrewsbury station and still has gets very nice attendances for a club of its size. Ditto Reading FC from Reading / Reading West. Ditto Wycombe Wanderers and High Wycombe. See where I'm going?

Are you saying Liverpool city should have two 60,000 to 70,000 stadia and no rapid-transit access in a city with a rapid-transit network? I hope you are not going that way
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You were correct - the comment about this is about as well informed as the rest of the stuff from the OP! Drayton Park is closed on Arsenal match days. I know this because I lived on Drayton Park (the road not the station!) for 10 years.......

I mentioned that the station is closed on Saturdays. But open during the week.

 

[starrymarkb]

By your logic of Arsenal moving to where there is transit and the same for Tottenham wanting the Olympic Stadium, why don't the clubs move to where there is transit

[/devil's advocate]

 

[jon0844]

I mentioned that the station is closed on Saturdays. But open during the week.

Except when Arsenal plays at home, when the station is closed (but the line itself isn't. Trains must still stop there to change from AC to DC, but the doors won't open and I expect the signs will clearly show a warning that the next train does not stop there.

As such, thousands of fans will only get on the train if they literally climb onto the train! With the overhead lines, I doubt many will fit comfortably. And they had to get into the station in the first place!

I've always gone to Emirates via Finsbury Park, and come back different ways.

 

[Ivo]

As such, thousands of fans will only get on the train if they literally climb onto the train! With the overhead lines, I doubt many will fit comfortably.

And if they are intending to travel south I suspect they might get a bit squashed

 

[jon0844]

And if they are intending to travel south I suspect they might get a bit squashed

Squashed or electrocuted. Some nice choices there.

 

[inner-city]

Broad Green as an interchange would mean people having to change trains to continute their journey as opposed to a direct bus journey. A curve from the loop to join the line to Lime St would be prohibitively expensive given the layout of the area and would involve demolishing a substantial amount of the suburb of Broad Green.

It was in the 1970s plan to build the curves. Enough space is there and they went underground. The curves too the station to where the Rocket pub is now. An interchange station can be built at Broad Green. It is still far, far quicker changing than being jerked about in a scruffy bus for mile after mile. Changing is the norm in London. The Outer Loop around Walton would get to the city centre via Kirkdale which is quick.

The DtT can intervene and Whitehall bang heads together. The DfT is aware of the web pages.
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I've always gone to Emirates via Finsbury Park, and come back different ways.

I use Highbury and Islington. No probs. Drayton Park shows that the station can be be modified if need to bee to accommodate even more fans

Spurs want Stratford and Crossrail. Very wise.
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By your logic of Arsenal moving to where there is transit and the same for Tottenham wanting the Olympic Stadium, why don't the clubs move to where there is transit

That is the idea. The eastern section of the mothballed Outer Loop is very long. It is in red:

The clubs can go to various sites on the red line. Preferably where trunk roads cross. The light blue line is the electrified City Line and the light blue star is Liverpool South Parkway for mainline services with out a change. Trains can just stay on the loop serving stadia on match days. No switching back at termini.

They can also go onto the less desirable Canada Dock Branch line. The white blue square on bottom right is a proposed stadium site.

 

[Wath Yard]

The DtT can intervene and Whitehall bang heads together. The DfT is aware of the web pages.

Does that mean you have been pestering them with emails? If they are aware, have they commented? What is their view on the plans?

This thread is just basically a typical 'Liverpool is more important than it actually is', like the arguments that if Manchester gets 3 tph - London, Liverpool should get at least 2, and HS2 should go to Liverpool. Liverpool was a great city, it was...

 

[inner-city]

Here's a little thought. If stadia are filled based on platform availability within a small radius, shouldn't Wembley be selling out day-in, day-out?

It generally does on the games staged. Wembley Park can only shift 37,500 per/hr with Four Platforms.

If clubs need en masse railway access, how are they selling so many seats?

You are still missing the point. When City were not at the top they regularly never filled a 48,00 stadium. If they had 27 rapid-transit platforms, they would. Get it? Study Arsenal who haven't won anything recently.
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Does that mean you have been pestering them with emails? If they are aware, have they commented? What is their view on the plans?

I have not contacted them but I have been informed they looked at both pages and were interested. Merseytravel play politic as they want trams to save face after the cancellation of Merseytram. Trams are out in new installations since the Edinburgh debacle. Liverpool also does not need them as they have an easily expandable Metro. Cheap to expand using DLR rolling stock, which is being considered. DfT gave the usual each case is looked at individually on its merits and on about the current spending restrictions.

This thread is just basically a typical 'Liverpool is more important than it actually is', like the arguments that if Manchester gets 3 tph - London, Liverpool should get at least 2, and HS2 should go to Liverpool. Liverpool was a great city, it was...

You are confused. It is clear what the thread is about - reusing a mothballed rail line and using two football clubs as part of the enabling.

Where are you from?

 

[ushawk]

It generally does on the games staged. Wembley Park can only shift 37,500 per/hr with Four Platforms.

You are still missing the point. When City were not at the top they regularly never filled a 48,00 stadium. If they had 27 rapid-transit platforms, they would. Get it? Study Arsenal who haven't won anything recently.

Have you even been to Wembley after a match ? I mean with a full 90,000 capacity. I have, and had to queue 15 minutes for a tube at Wembley Park, which has 6 platforms, also there is Wembley Central (which does have 6 platforms too but 4 get used on event days) and Wembley Stadium, so 2 platforms. Id like to see where you got that statistic from, as i dont believe there has had to be hour long waits at Wembley.

And City have always had an attendance of around 40,000, yet its transport facilities arent that good. It doesnt matter if Arsenal havent won anything recently, that HAVE in the past which is where they have got their huge fanbase.

This is just going round and round in circles with a lot of unproven "facts" being said as well as statistics with no proof.

 

[inner-city]

Wait till he starts on the fill in the Mersey and use it for a high speed rail line nonsense.

Will you please leave the thread and pester other threads with your irrelevant inane noise.

 

[Darandio]

You are still missing the point. When City were not at the top they regularly never filled a 48,00 stadium. If they had 27 rapid-transit platforms, they would. Get it? Study Arsenal who haven't won anything recently.

Is this thread somewhat a joke?

When City were not at the top, they didn't fill the stadium for that exact same reason. They do have a large core support though, and even when they were just starting out in the new stadium, they averaged over 40-45,000 each year before the investors arrived. Even their last season at Maine Road, playing in the Championship, they still achieved over 33,000 average from a 35,000 capacity.

Take Middlesbrough as a perfect example. Good transport links and in the McClaren years, 30,000+ average capacity every season. Fast forward to 2010/2011, in the lower reaches of the Championship and the club now averages just over 16,000. Success sells tickets. You could give them a free rapid transit link directly to their seat, but if the club wasn't successful, it would not make a blind bit of difference.

The addition of xxx amount of rapid transit platforms has nothing to do with it whatsoever and doesn't decide attendances. Core support, success, season ticket pricing and individual/family pricing take care of that.

 

[inner-city]

Have you even been to Wembley after a match ? I mean with a full 90,000 capacity. I have, and had to queue 15 minutes for a tube at Wembley Park, which has 6 platforms,

Did you queue for an eternity before the upgrade? I did. 15 mins that is OK.

The stats were from the link. I have also read the same elsewhere. I never said hour long since the stadium.

And City have always had an attendance of around 40,000, yet its transport facilities arent that good. It doesnt matter if Arsenal havent won anything recently, that HAVE in the past which is where they have got their huge fanbase.

City have won things in the past as well. Euro trophies as well. Arsenal never had a massive fanbase. Large and in fact no bigger than Everton. The only time they have had consistent 100% fills of the stadium is when they built a new stadium surrounded by platforms. City built one with and do not get big attendances. You are answering your own queries.

What is FACT. Arsenal FC's Emirates stadium has six surrounding rapid-transit railway stations. The whole 60,000 can be shifted quite quickly by using rapid-transit rail. The key point to the success of the stadium, which since 2006 has been at over 97% full, is the ease of access served by the rapid-transit rail stations. The six stations immediately surrounding the Emirates stadium provide a total of 27 platforms.

The Emirates stadium's site was selected because of the adjacent rail lines. £7.6 million had been set aside by the planning permission for upgrading adjacent Drayton Park and Holloway Road rapid-transit rail stations. However, Transport for London decided not to upgrade either station, in favour of improvement works at the interchanges at the nearby Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park stations, both of which are served by London Underground lines and First Capital Connect services. The work at Highbury & Islington is still ongoing.

 

[Darandio]

City have won things in the past as well. Euro trophies as well. Arsenal never had a massive fanbase. Large and in fact no bigger than Everton. The only time they have had consistent 100% fills of the stadium is when they built a new stadium surrounded by platforms. City built one with and do not get big attendances. You are answering your own queries.

You are talking absolute bo!!ock$ to try and drive home a point which is false, and has already been explained back to you.

Arsenal never had a massive fanbase? Yeah right. Highbury was consistently filled, even in the Rioch years.

And City do get big attendances.

 

[inner-city]

Is this thread somewhat a joke?

Read from the beginning. and get then points. Many do not. Look at the key to the success of Arsenal. Then look at what the city of Liverpool with mothballed lines and two clubs proposing new stadia. Then apply the Arsenal success to the three prime points in Liverpool (line, EFC and LFC) and then it makes sense.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

your irrelevant inane noise.

Pot, kettle, black.

You are talking, to be frank, absolute rubbish. You cannot deny Arsenal have never had a massive fanbase - they have been one of the most popular teams in England for decades. I will also say this - if Highbury could have held 50,000 in its dying days, I believe it would have filled up week in, week out, regardless of the number of railway / Tube stations nearby.

 

[ushawk]

Did you queue for an eternity before the upgrade? 15 mins that is OK.

City have won things in the past as well. Euro trophies as well. Arsenal never had a massive fanbase. Large and in fact no bigger than Everton. The only time they have had consistent 100% fills of the stadium is when they built a new stadium surrounded by platforms. City built one with and do not get big attendances. You are answering your own queries.

What is FACT. Arsenal FC's Emirates stadium has six surrounding rapid-transit railway stations. The whole 60,000 can be shifted quite quickly by using rapid-transit rail. The key point to the success of the stadium, which since 2006 has been at over 97% full, is the ease of access served by the rapid-transit rail stations. The six stations immediately surrounding the Emirates stadium provide a total of 27 platforms.

The Emirates stadium's site was selected because of the adjacent rail lines. £7.6 million had been set aside by the planning permission for upgrading adjacent Drayton Park and Holloway Road rapid-transit rail stations. However, Transport for London decided not to upgrade either station, in favour of improvement works at the interchanges at the nearby Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park stations, both of which are served by London Underground lines and First Capital Connect services. The work at Highbury & Islington is still ongoing.

Im not on about the old Wembley, im on about the current one, seeing as your on about Arsenals current stadium.

Now, im not an Arsenal fan - far from being one, but they have a MASSIVE amount of fans and you say they are the same as Everton, i dont really see people walking round with Everton shirts and bags, but you do with Arsenal. The transport infrastructure around the Emirates already existed before it was built as most of the stations already served Highbury, its nothing new and it has no effect. You dont go to a football match because "it is next to a tube station" for example, you go to support a club.

Crystal Palace have good transport links, would i ever go and watch one of their games ? No. The success of a stadium is down to its fanbase at the end of a day. Man United could have a stadium in the middle of nowhere, and they would still get about 70,000 each week - because they are Man United. Brighton have had next to no success (unless you call a League 1 championship successful), yet they still fill up their stadium week in, week out because they have the fanbase - and the only station is a small 2 platform one which isnt fit for thousands of people to use on matchdays.

 

[Ivo]

Just a little extra with regards to Arsenal.

Parking is known to be notoriously difficult around the Emirates. Most fans will have no choice but to travel to the stadium by train. You cannot use this as evidence that stations and station platforms attract fans! If you can find a resounding success at a stadium that has adequate parking capabilities, and wasn't built around an incentive for fans to travel by "greener" methods (e.g. Falmer), then you can use it as an example.

Now, im not an Arsenal fan - far from being one, but they have a MASSIVE amount of fans and you say they are the same as Everton, i dont really see people walking round with Everton shirts and bags, but you do with Arsenal.

Remind me to wear one of my Everton shirts if ever I see you

It is a stereotype, but it is true to say that a large number of Everton fans are local. This was also true of City, until glory hunters turned up.

 

[Darandio]

Read from the beginning. and get then points. Many do not. Look at the key to the success of Arsenal. Then look at what the city of Liverpool with mothballed lines and two clubs proposing new stadia. Then apply the Arsenal success to the three prime points in Liverpool (line, EFC and LFC) and then it makes sense.

I have read from the beginning, its still flawed.

You see, you keep repeating Arsenal and the Emirates as a key point, then giving out false and flawed information. The main one is the apparent low fanbase of Arsenal, now only increased because the Emirates has good transport links. Bull.

The Emirates was built for no other reason than having a large fanbase, and not a big enough stadium to allocate season tickets to those who were on the waiting list. It was quite obvious the potential revenue was there and because of Uefa ticketing strategy, a certain percentage of tickets have to be put aside for general sale.

In the late 90's, plans were put forward to extend Highbury, but this was rejected by Islington Council. At the same time, Arsenal put forward a proposal to play their home Champions League games at Wembley in order to show potential investors that the core support was there, and that they could generate larger matchday income. Despite being rubbish in the two CL seasons they played at Wembley, they regularly attracted over 70,000 resulting in an excess of £1million in matchday income. The fanbase was already there.

You could have extended Highbury to 60,000 and made access only by parachute, they still would have filled it.

* I am not saying any of your ideas are actually bad, its just your justification on using a current model that doesn't even exist is false.

 

[ushawk]

Remind me to wear one of my Everton shirts if ever I see you

It is a stereotype, but it is true to say that a large number of Everton fans are local. This was also true of City, until glory hunters turned up.

Went up by train to Liverpool in February for the Liverpool vs Brighton FA Cup match (lets not touch the result ) and as soon as i stepped off the Pendo, i saw an Everton shirt, and i probably saw them more than Liverpool shirts - lot of their fans on the train too. But thats another topic

Should also say for Falmer, this season, fans for each match can but a travel voucher for each match at £1.50 per person. It allowed travel to/from the game on train service within an area of Shoreham, Haywards Heath, Lewes and Seaford and buses for the same boundary, except to the west is Worthing, also allows the use of Park and Ride facilities for no extra cost - down to this is the reason 80% of fans use public transport (that and car parking at the stadium is very poor).

 

[Greenback]

Thread locked due to it going round in circles and causing too many arguments.