Far North Line "facing closure" (slight hyperbole alert).

[Blindtraveler]

I wasnt aware that trains are now 30 minutes slower.
Its no wonder seats on the X99 bus and its feeder routes are so hard to come by at times.

I agree that loop needs building and building fast!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Here's a frightening statistic: of all the trains from Inverness to Wick this year, only 25% have actually arrived at Wick on time. 25%. A quarter.

That is because there is no Lentran Loop. And while we're at it, a Kinbrace Loop would be good to.

So what proportion of those 75% not on time are due to delays encountered between Inverness and Muir of Ord that the Lentran Loop would aid?

 

[backontrack]

So what proportion of those 75% not on time are due to delays encountered between Inverness and Muir of Ord that the Lentran Loop would aid?

Generally, delays are caused either by:

a) Domino-stacking of delays mostly caused or worsened by being stuck at Inverness or Muir

or

b) Being short-staffed at the Wick depot

Often, trains will have to speed up to reach the other side of the Muir loop before they're stuck behind another service as well. So they'll miss out some stops. Some trains even avoid Thurso and head straight to Wick!

 

[Altnabreac]

That is pretty terrible - but absent the loop could it be fixed with more realistic timetabling? What is the primary cause of the problem?

Lentran Loop is needed but it's not the whole story.

You would also want to see some/all of:

• Level Crossing speed improvements (and closures);
• Better staff availability in Wick;
• RETB replacement (and a second workstation for north of Invergordon);
• New conventional signalling from Dingwall - Inverness;
• New loop at Evanton;
• New loop at Kinbrace;
• Line speed improvements follow track upgrades;
• Georgemas Chord for direct Thurso services.

I think personally you could also close a few stations at Scotscalder, Kildonan, Rogart and Culrain but not sure there is any political will for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think personally you could also close a few stations at Scotscalder, Kildonan, Rogart and Culrain but not sure there is any political will for that.

If they are so rarely used then they are basically irrelevant - just have them as request stops. The one I would concede is that Georgemas passenger station could do with being relocated to Halkirk.

 

[backontrack]

Lentran Loop is needed but it's not the whole story.

You would also want to see some/all of:

• Level Crossing speed improvements (and closures);
• Better staff availability in Wick;
• RETB replacement (and a second workstation for north of Invergordon);
• New conventional signalling from Dingwall - Inverness;
• New loop at Evanton;
• New loop at Kinbrace;
• Line speed improvements follow track upgrades;
• Georgemas Chord for direct Thurso services.

I think personally you could also close a few stations at Scotscalder, Altnabreac, Kildonan, Rogart and Culrain but not sure there is any political will for that.

Fixed that for you

Agreed that most/all of the above are needed; a station at Evanton wouldn't be bad either.

In the meantime, I've set up a petition: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/p/beaulyloop

 

[Altnabreac]

If they are so rarely used then they are basically irrelevant - just have them as request stops. The one I would concede is that Georgemas passenger station could do with being relocated to Halkirk.

If you close some stations completely then you can potentially speed up journeys a little. Halkirk could replace Scotscalder and Georgemas Junction to both speed journeys up and serve the local community much better. Somewhere like Kildonan though the level crossing speed is so slow that closing the station won't really help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fixed that for you

Agreed that most/all of the above are needed; a station at Evanton wouldn't be bad either.

In the meantime, I've set up a petition: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/p/beaulyloop

No one is closing Altnabreac! Wash your mouth out.

 

[QueensCurve]

Well you have dumbfounded me there. I used the route & was amazed at just how fast some sections where in comparison with one line that I work & call rural, The East Suffolk. That now has many many more passengers yet is treated to a 55mph top speed. I'm sure much of the Far North are 75-90mph. We can only dream.

It would seem, to my astonishment, there is a 90mph section between Forsinard and Altnabrach, but mostly 70 or less. Speeds for 15x trains are higher than for others.

 

[37 418]

If they are so rarely used then they are basically irrelevant - just have them as request stops.

Those stations are already request stops IIRC

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If they are so rarely used then they are basically irrelevant - just have them as request stops. The one I would concede is that Georgemas passenger station could do with being relocated to Halkirk.

Doesn't a request stop still slow down the service, because the train would have to approach the station slowly enough to be able to stop if the driver sees someone on the platform - it can't go through the station at line speed?

 

[QueensCurve]

Doesn't a request stop still slow down the service, because the train would have to approach the station slowly enough to be able to stop if the driver sees someone on the platform - it can't go through the station at line speed?

For that reason I have never really seen the point of request stops. If the timetable is based on making all the request stops the trains are not accelerated. If it is based on not making the stops, trains will run late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't a request stop still slow down the service, because the train would have to approach the station slowly enough to be able to stop if the driver sees someone on the platform - it can't go through the station at line speed?

It does, though that uses less time than a full stop-and-open-doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For that reason I have never really seen the point of request stops. If the timetable is based on making all the request stops the trains are not accelerated. If it is based on not making the stops, trains will run late.

You base the timetable on making some of the request stops on the grounds that people won't want all of them. If a particular station is used by passengers each time, it should be a normal stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Those stations are already request stops IIRC

So not a problem then

(Altnabreac certainly is, I have requested it! )

 

[najaB]

That is pretty terrible - but absent the loop could it be fixed with more realistic timetabling?

Not really. It's a (from memory) 20 minute single line section. If a train misses its slot then it's going to cause havoc no matter what.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. It's a (from memory) 20 minute single line section. If a train misses its slot then it's going to cause havoc no matter what.

It will, but my point was more as to why trains are routinely missing slots, and whether some recovery time would assist in preventing this.

The Swiss, after all, have many lines like this (they tend to design infrastructure for a timetable rather than try to cram in as we do) and they don't appear to have anywhere near the same level of problems.

 

[Highland37]

I am really surprised that the Lentran Long Loop is so infrequently mentioned in here. It's so very important that it goes ahead in CP6 at the latest.

Here's a frightening statistic: of all the trains from Inverness to Wick this year, only 25% have actually arrived at Wick on time. 25%. A quarter.

That is because there is no Lentran Loop. And while we're at it, a Kinbrace Loop would be good to.

Phil Verster says we need doubling between Beauly and Inverness. He's not the only one, either. Some councillors are sympathetic. But the SNP just won't listen...Derek MacKay didn't do anything about it. Humza Yousaf probably doesn't care about it. I'd like to be proved wrong, we all would...

The onus is on Messrs Yousaf and Ewing to stop our troubles. This needs to go ahead, as soon as possible. Or, yes, the line may as well close. We don't want that, do we?

Bring on the Lentran Loop.

I live in Beauly. Your post is complete gibberish. It's easy to roll out the usual SNPbad mantra but let's remember that since the SNP came to power, the service is much better than it was under the Labour or Libs Dems. Cons have never been close to power in Scotland recently.

Remember also, that the total Scottish budget is set in Westminster and that is reducing all the time. More cuts are to come.

Some people on here seem to think the railways should take precedence over everything else. The Lentran Loop would be useful but it sin't anything as like as important as social work, education, care for the elderly and so on.

 

[backontrack]

I live in Beauly. Your post is complete gibberish. It's easy to roll out the usual SNPbad mantra but let's remember that since the SNP came to power, the service is much better than it was under the Labour or Libs Dems. Cons have never been close to power in Scotland recently.

I disagree.

Let's face it, the SNP are going to win every Scottish election for ages. So it's easy for them to spend the bulk of their money in the central belt. I think that's clear and evident.

The Far North Line service is actually slower now then it was when the 158s first came in. The LLL would still be quite cheap - let's get it done quickly, shall we?

 

[cf111]

1038 Inverness-Wick for me today, got as far as Helmsdale and now on a minibus due to slippery rails. Is the RHTT due to pass any time soon?

 

[Clansman]

I disagree.

Let's face it, the SNP are going to win every Scottish election for ages. So it's easy for them to spend the bulk of their money in the central belt. I think that's clear and evident.

The Far North Line service is actually slower now then it was when the 158s first came in.The LLL would still be quite cheap - let's get it done quickly, shall we?

I think from the SNP's point of view that at the end of the day it'll be about maintaining votes in the most dense areas, which is a shame for rural communities but it does make sense from a political point of view. At the end of the day though the time will come hopefully sooner than later, that a heavy investment will be undertaken up North. Look at England for example, constituency votes slowly moving to labour up North then Osbourne splashes out "Northern Powerhouse" and then hey presto, the Tories win the next 2 elections. (As a nationalist I intend no bias)

Are you saying the line was quicker when the 156s were in charge?
(I'm sure you meant loco hauls otherwise, just pulling your leg )

1038 Inverness-Wick for me today, got as far as Helmsdale and now on a minibus due to slippery rails. Is the RHTT due to pass any time soon?

Slippery Rails? Isn't that what Sanders were invented for?

The condition of that line is in decline, I don't think I've ever been on a service which has ever arrived at Wick or Inverness on time - and that's including passed request stops.

 

[Trucker Glen]

You're right that the government of the day will spend money on projects that will get them votes, that's why in the north of Scotland their spending is on roads rather than railways.
The majority of people in Wick or Thurso will probably never travel on the Far North Line, let alone appreciate the benefit of a couple of passing loops. Yet everyone there will notice and benefit from an improvement to the A9 at Berriedale.
And the electorate of the Highlands as a whole will understand how a dual carriageway A9 or A96 benefits them more than improved journey times on a railway they very occasionally use.

 

[Highland37]

I disagree.

Let's face it, the SNP are going to win every Scottish election for ages. So it's easy for them to spend the bulk of their money in the central belt. I think that's clear and evident.

The Far North Line service is actually slower now then it was when the 158s first came in. The LLL would still be quite cheap - let's get it done quickly, shall we?

Again I think the facts disprove you. Huge investment in Calmac, Aberdeen WPR, A9 dualling, there is a brand new school near me and so on.

I know it is very tough when you don't support the SNP but need a stick to beat them with but again I think the facts don't support you.

 

[snowball]

Don't forget the A96 dualling by 2030.

 

[backontrack]

Again I think the facts disprove you. Huge investment in Calmac, Aberdeen WPR, A9 dualling, there is a brand new school near me and so on.

I know it is very tough when you don't support the SNP but need a stick to beat them with but again I think the facts don't support you.

Calmac - what about NorthLink? Fares there are still higher and higher, and SERCO managed to win it! As for Aberdeen WPR, you conveniently forget that Aberdeen is just an isolated power centre - it's Scotland's 3rd city, Alex Salmond has an Aberdeenshire seat.

The only thing that people mention that they've done for the Highlands is the A9 dualling. That's it. It's the only real thing there. It's not that I don't support it - I haven't criticised it once - but I think that it's just not enough.

Passenger numbers on the Far North Line have started to decline again. People are turning away from the line because of the crap service. Beeching's tactic was to run down the lines and turn away the passengers (so that they could close the line). I'm not saying that anyone is trying to close the line - but rather that the loss and lack of passengers is a direct result of how crap the service is.

I'm not trying to damage the SNP because I don't support it. That is gibberish, and a blatantly untrue accusation. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to argue a better deal. You obviously feel that you need to defend your precious SNP - why? Is it because I'm asking for something more, something that they're maybe not willing to provide?

 

[The Ham]

I think from the SNP's point of view that at the end of the day it'll be about maintaining votes in the most dense areas, which is a shame for rural communities but it does make sense from a political point of view. At the end of the day though the time will come hopefully sooner than later, that a heavy investment will be undertaken up North. Look at England for example, constituency votes slowly moving to labour up North then Osbourne splashes out "Northern Powerhouse" and then hey presto, the Tories win the next 2 elections. (As a nationalist I intend no bias)

It's the old everything for London and the South East argument that often talked about in UK politics just amended to suit Scottish politics.

 

[snowball]

It's the old everything for London and the South East argument that often talked about in UK politics just amended to suit Scottish politics.

It's a bit different from that. If you look at what the A9 and A96 dualling will cost per head of population served, it's more than the central belt is getting. Whereas the amount per capita spent on transport in say NE England is a small fraction of that in London.

Numerous roads further south carry more traffic than the A9 but are not proposed for dualling.

 

[backontrack]

It's the old everything for London and the South East argument that often talked about in UK politics just amended to suit Scottish politics.

You know why people say that, then? You know why?

It's because it's true.

 

[class26]

I live in Beauly. Your post is complete gibberish. It's easy to roll out the usual SNPbad mantra but let's remember that since the SNP came to power, the service is much better than it was under the Labour or Libs Dems. Cons have never been close to power in Scotland recently.
Remember also, that the total Scottish budget is set in Westminster and that is reducing all the time. More cuts are to come.



Point of order. The total budget is NOT set in Westminster. The SNP have tax raising powers therefore could increase the budget if they chose to. They choose not because it would weaken the case for independence I presume .

 

[crispy1978]

I've travelled on the Far North Line several times to Thurso - it's always had a decent number of passengers.

I can't see it will be closed - I imagine that would cause an absolute uproar - it wasn't that long since they opened a new station (Conon Bridge)

 

[Clansman]

I've travelled on the Far North Line several times to Thurso - it's always had a decent number of passengers.

I can't see it will be closed - I imagine that would cause an absolute uproar - it wasn't that long since they opened a new station (Conon Bridge)

I think the line in question was North of Tain (or Ardgay), where services to and from Inverness are from Wick and Thurso rather than frequent(ish) shuttles.

Can't see the line closing any time soon, it would spark outrage and would be utterly pointless.

 

[backontrack]

Can't see the line closing any time soon, it was spark outrage and would be utterly pointless.

Agreed.

 

[Highland37]

I live in Beauly. Your post is complete gibberish. It's easy to roll out the usual SNPbad mantra but let's remember that since the SNP came to power, the service is much better than it was under the Labour or Libs Dems. Cons have never been close to power in Scotland recently.
Remember also, that the total Scottish budget is set in Westminster and that is reducing all the time. More cuts are to come.



Point of order. The total budget is NOT set in Westminster. The SNP have tax raising powers therefore could increase the budget if they chose to. They choose not because it would weaken the case for independence I presume .

It might be semantics but the total budget for Scotland IS set by Westminster. Yes, a party in Scotland can add to that but as you know, there is an affect on the block grant also.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Calmac - what about NorthLink? Fares there are still higher and higher, and SERCO managed to win it! As for Aberdeen WPR, you conveniently forget that Aberdeen is just an isolated power centre - it's Scotland's 3rd city, Alex Salmond has an Aberdeenshire seat.

The only thing that people mention that they've done for the Highlands is the A9 dualling. That's it. It's the only real thing there. It's not that I don't support it - I haven't criticised it once - but I think that it's just not enough.

Passenger numbers on the Far North Line have started to decline again. People are turning away from the line because of the crap service. Beeching's tactic was to run down the lines and turn away the passengers (so that they could close the line). I'm not saying that anyone is trying to close the line - but rather that the loss and lack of passengers is a direct result of how crap the service is.

I'm not trying to damage the SNP because I don't support it. That is gibberish, and a blatantly untrue accusation. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to argue a better deal. You obviously feel that you need to defend your precious SNP - why? Is it because I'm asking for something more, something that they're maybe not willing to provide?

I have not even mentioned whether I support the SNP or not. You have presumed that. But it does irk me that you ignore the facts and try to present a vision which isn't based on reality.

I'd quite happily commend Labour or the Lib Dems for supporting the line but they did pretty much nothing.

You seem to be agreeing with me now. As you said that the investment was in the Central Belt, and I and others pointed out that this is not the case, you now recognise what you said to be untrue and appears to be now arguing about the reasons for the investment.

Again you are just plain wrong. You said that "The only thing that people mention that they've done for the Highlands is the A9 dualling. That's it." when on this very thread people have been mentioning other things. You could add the various new health centres in Forres and Drumnadrochit for example.

If RET was introduced on the Northlink routes ticket prices would go up.

But I agree with you, the service west of Dingwall or north of Ardgay is rubbish. The line speeds are very slow in the west and the 158s truly awful.

Like I said earlier, my colleagues, who live and work here like I do myself, want to avoid the train if they can. The bus is much better in their view.