Far-right protests

[najaB]

I don't really understand this "social cohesion" business, I'm afraid. Sounds like a desire for homogeneity, which isn't necessarily a desirable trait.

I don't necessarily agree. Social cohesion, at least as far as I see it, is a natural extension of common decency and politeness such that nobody sees their culture or their traditions as more important or overriding anyone else's, and is willing to adapt or compromise so that everyone feels part of a whole.

As a totally made-up example, if social group A has a tradition of making noise every morning at 8am and group B has a tradition of silence at 8am on Fridays then the 'socially cohesive' thing would be for group A to make less noise on Friday mornings, rather than either group insisting that the other has to yield because "that's our culture".

 

[ainsworth74]

What do you expect them to do? Tighten the rules still further so that it's all but impossible for anyone to emigrate to the UK unless they have very specialist skills?

Well that's the dirty little secret (or perhaps not so secret anymore) isn't it? The reason the Tories 'failed' on immigration is becuase the numbers surged at the same time as their anti-immigrant rhetoric also surged. But it surged not because of small boats and other forms of irregular migration but because of wholly legal migration. That is to say people who were issued visas by the Home Office.

Why did it surge? Well, in part because of things like Ukraine and Hong Kong but a big chunk was people coming on student, health worker and other worker visas. I've not got figures to hand (they're a pain to look up on your phone!) but I seem to recall in 2023 if you removed the visas issued through schemes like those for Ukraine and also small boat arrivals you're net migration figure is still over half a million for the year.

But if you seriously cut those visa numbers you crash the higher education sector (often quite a significant employer as well as the soft power of people studying and gaining an affection for Britain who may go on to important roles at home in business and government), or you cripple health and social care (anyone feel like what that sector needs is a further workforce shortage?), or you harm the wider economy through shortages of workers in various sectors.

Now, all three of those outcomes are perfectly legitimate policy outcomes. But the Tories were absolutely loathe to admit those were the choices. Hence the laser focus on small boats and asylum seekers. The numbers involved are miniscule but at least it makes it sound like something is being done. Of course the mask slips when the numbers of overall migration don't actually reduce and, becuase they're incompetent, they then utterly break the asylum system itself.

And now we are where we are and needing to deal with the consequences of this catastrophic mismanagement and entirely political messaging about cracking down when they're not willing to do any such thing due to the negative policy outcomes that would bring.

 

[DarloRich]

You are entitled to protest a policy and, indeed, Government that you do not like. You are entitled to argue and campaign for policies to be changed or new policies to be introduced. You are entitled to raise awareness of issues that concern you and other people. You are entitled to do all these things individually or in groups.

You are not entitled to commit arson. You are not entitled to burn out a Citizens Advice Bureau. You are not entitled to attempt set fire to a hotel housing asylum seekers. You are not entitled to beat up people on the basis of their skin colour. You are not entitled to roam the streets smashing cars up and setting them on fire. You are not entitled to walk down a street smashing every window on every house. You are not entitled to fight with the police injuring dozens of them. You are not entitled to terrify and scare members of an ethnic minority just because of the colour of their skin or their religion. These are not a legitimate forms of protest. They not a legitimate way of exercising a political voice. They are not a legitimate way of seeking to effect political change.

A democracy that gives in to those who would attempt to seek to make change in that way will not remain a democracy for much longer. So yes, groups of people who do that must face the full force of the law and must be punished severely, swiftly and without fear or favour.

If you cannot see how what has happened on the streets these pasts few days is different from a legitimate protest then I'm not sure anyone can help you at this point.

nail. head. hammer.

 

[nw1]

I don't necessarily agree. Social cohesion, at least as far as I see it, is a natural extension of common decency and politeness such that nobody sees their culture or their traditions as more important or overriding anyone else's, and is willing to adapt or compromise so that everyone feels part of a whole.

As a totally made-up example, if social group A has a tradition of making noise every morning at 8am and group B has a tradition of silence at 8am on Fridays then the 'socially cohesive' thing would be for group A to make less noise on Friday mornings, rather than either group insisting that the other has to yield because "that's our culture".

The use of the term by those with an anti-immigration standpoint appears to imply that immigrants will not integrate into British culture though, and that is not especially my experience at all. While some immigrants doubtless cause trouble, so do some of the native population.

Indeed throughout my adult life I've generally found that white British males (which includes myself, just to show I am not being prejudiced here) are the social grouping most likely to cause trouble. Not exclusively - but the majority of incidents I've witnessed have come from this particular grouping.

So basically, some people are anti-social and wish to cause disruption to their community, and others are not - and in my experience having a minority ethnicity or nationality is irrelevant to this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Well that's the dirty little secret (or perhaps not so secret anymore) isn't it? The reason the Tories 'failed' on immigration is becuase the numbers surged at the same time as their anti-immigrant rhetoric also surged. But it surged not because of small boats and other forms of irregular migration but because of wholly legal migration. That is to say people who were issued visas by the Home Office.

Why did it surge? Well, in part because of things like Ukraine and Hong Kong but a big chunk was people coming on student, health worker and other worker visas. I've not got figures to hand (they're a pain to look up on your phone!) but I seem to recall in 2023 if you removed the visas issued through schemes like those for Ukraine and also small boat arrivals you're net migration figure is still over half a million for the year.

But if you seriously cut those visa numbers you crash the higher education sector (often quite a significant employer as well as the soft power of people studying and gaining an affection for Britain who may go on to important roles at home in business and government), or you cripple health and social care (anyone feel like what that sector needs is a further workforce shortage?), or you harm the wider economy through shortages of workers in various sectors.

Good points. So do we want to crash higher education, cripple health and social care, or harm the economy through worker shortages?

I suspect not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

"How long do you reckon these protests riots will last for?" . Until the weather gets colder, it starts to rain and the evening draw in.

Didn't it get cooler and start to rain, or at least drizzle, last Thursday?

But to be honest I think it'll all start to die down now. They've had their little episode, most are sick to death of the sight of them, and they'll go away back to the holes they came from.

Coverage of the robust legal treatment of the likely offenders will help, too, I suspect.

 

[Gloster]

The last list I saw published (well a screen shot of a Facebook group called something like British Patriots and lots of flag emojis) seemed accurate, so we have to assume this is.

Now Tommy, Nigel and others are hardly going to publish or show that list - but they are almost certainly re-tweeting or quoting content from the people who will have the list, so when people click on the other profile and dig a little deeper, find a link to WhatsApp/FB/Telegram/Signal etc then they'll get the list.

This is how some high profile people get to promote the problems with plausible deniability.

The question has to be, who is coming up and planning these lists? Is Tommy working on that in a private group behind the scenes on his sunbed? (I am of course 'just asking questions'....).

With reference to this I saw something yesterday reporting that Farage said that he got his original misinformation about the identity of the Southport attacker from a tweet or whatever from Andrew Tate. Do we really believe that a high-profile MP and party leader innocently passed on a piece of information in all good faith from such a source without checking it if he only wished to provide necessary information to the public.

I also read that David Yelland, once editor of The Sun, was one of many criticising the Daily Telegraph after, for a second day, it had a headline that tried to put the few incidences of trouble by Muslims on the same level as the main rioting.

(I can’t find either of these again, but I definitely read them on reasonably respectable sites.)

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder to all that any post which makes reference to something from an external source, should have a hyperlink (if at all possible; if not, please contact us for advice) as well as a text quote (a screenshot can also be useful but we do need text), in quote tags (using the quote button)

This should be in addition to, and separate from, your own comment.

 

[swt_passenger]

Musk is bonkers, and is a complete and utter weirdo with major issues; Twitter (I don't call it "x") is now a junk platform.

Apparently he’s now going to sue big firms in the US for not buying advertising on his site:

Elon Musk's X/Twitter is suing a group of major companies, alleging that they unlawfully conspired to boycott the site.

It accuses the food giants Unilever and Mars, private healthcare company CVS Health, and renewable energy firm Orsted - along with a trade association called the World Federation of Advertisers (WFA) - of depriving it of "billions of dollars" in advertising revenue.

The lawsuit relates to the period in 2022 just after Mr Musk bought X, then known as Twitter, when advertising revenue dived.

Some companies had been wary of advertising on the platform amid concerns that its new owner was not serious enough about removing harmful online content.

Elon Musk sues Unilever and Mars over X advertising 'boycott'

The social media site claims the firms unfairly deprived it of billions of dollars of advertising revenue.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[birchesgreen]

With reference to this I saw something yesterday reporting that Farage said that he got his original misinformation about the identity of the Southport attacker from a tweet or whatever from Andrew Tate. Do we really believe that a high-profile MP and party leader innocently passed on a piece of information in all good faith from such a source without checking it if he only wished to provide necessary information to the public.

The same Tate who got upset that some online stormtroopers he has decided to join called him a P***.

I am getting the feeling that the bloke who got hit in the balls with a brick might actually be the intellectual of this movement.

 

[nw1]

Apparently he’s now going to sue big firms in the US for not buying advertising on his site:

Hmmm... so much for the free market.

Can't the companies decide for themselves who they wish to advertise through, or not? And even if multiple companies did "collude" to boycott "X", isn't that their right to do so?

Seems to be very strange that such a case is even considered in a country that is supposed to be the bastion of unregulated free-market capitalism.

As for Musk, well it seems to be more evidence that basically he is the Tech Trump.

 

[DustyBin]

What do you expect them to do? Tighten the rules still further so that it's all but impossible for anyone to emigrate to the UK unless they have very specialist, niche skills?

Basically yes, although I’d replace “very specialist” and “niche” with “beneficial” and “useful”.

 

[najaB]

Seems to be very strange that such a case is even considered in a country that is supposed to be the bastion of unregulated free-market capitalism.

One of the guiding principles of the US legal system seems to be that you're free to sue anyone for anything.

For example, the person who sued their parents because they "didn't ask to be born".

 

[Bluejays]

Hmmm... so much for the free market.

Can't the companies decide for themselves who they wish to advertise through, or not? And even if multiple companies did "collude" to boycott "X", isn't that their right to do so?

Seems to be very strange that such a case is even considered in a country that is supposed to be the bastion of unregulated free-market capitalism.

As for Musk, well it seems to be more evidence that basically he is the Tech Trump.

I think behind the scenes collusion between companies is generally seen to be a bad thing to be fair. An interesting legal test although seems a bit of a speculative case

 

[brad465]

Some more substantial jail sentences being issued now:

Stay on high alert, Starmer tells emergency meeting on riots

Sir Keir Starmer is understood to have told Cobra that there is "no doubt" rapid sentencing has acted as a deterrent to further disorder.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two men jailed for 30 months and 20 months for violent disorderpublished​

Declan Geiran has been jailed for 30 months - 28 months for violent disorder and setting fire to a police van in Liverpool, and a further two months in relation to a conviction for malicious communication.

Liam Riley has been jailed for 20 months, including two months for the racially aggravating element for this offending.

Derek Drummond has been jailed for three years for taking part in the violent disorder in Southport.

He is the first offender to be sent to prison for that offence since the trouble began.

He has also been sentenced to two months for punching a police officer - to run concurrently.

 

[Donny Dave]

I think behind the scenes collusion between companies is generally seen to be a bad thing to be fair. An interesting legal test although seems a bit of a speculative case

According to the report on the BBC, he is unlikely to win, as the decision to advertise elsewhere is seen to be a protected speech under the first amendment.

Elon Musk sues Unilever and Mars over X advertising 'boycott'

The social media site claims the firms unfairly deprived it of billions of dollars of advertising revenue.

www.bbc.co.uk

Legal experts have suggested the case is unlikely to succeed.

"As a general rule, a politically motivated boycott is not an antitrust violation. It is protected speech under our First Amendment," said Bill Baer, who was assistant attorney general for the Department of Justice's antitrust division under former US president Barack Obama.

Meanwhile, back here in the UK, Tommy Robinson is at it again....

Suffolk Police squash online Brantham murder case misinformation

Online users falsely claim that two people held in connection with the Brantham attack are Somali.

www.bbc.co.uk

Police have squashed what they described as "dangerous" misinformation about an ongoing murder investigation.
Anita Rose, 57, from Brantham in Suffolk, was walking her dog in the village when she was attacked on 24 July before she later died in hospital.
Following the incident, an investigation was launched with two men arrested on suspicion of murder and a woman arrested on suspicion of handling stolen goods in connection to the case.
However police said misinformation had been spread online that one of the men - and the woman - were Somali migrants, which the English Defence League (EDL) founder, Tommy Robinson, similarly claimed.
In a video posted to X, Tommy Robinson - whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon - claimed two Somali people had been let into Britain before they went on to kill Ms Rose.

The guy really is an idiot.

 

[Bluejays]

Some decent sentences being handed down. Always nice to see actions having consequences!

 

[renegademaster]

I guess this disproves the myth some people where pushing that judges are only harsh on left wing activists who commit crime

 

[DustyBin]

Some decent sentences being handed down. Always nice to see actions having consequences!

Agreed, the behaviour displayed was utterly feral.

 

[Bluejays]

I guess this disproves the myth some people where pushing that judges are only harsh on left wing activists who commit crime

Haven't been able to go more than a message on twitter without accusations of police and prosecutorial bias. Roughly split it seems between those who think the left are harshly treated and those on the right claiming #2tier. Reminds me of the old quote about the BBC that as long as they are getting it equally from both sides they must be pretty impartial.

 

[SteveP29]

In the last 25 years, immigration has spread to every corner of the country world

Fixed that for you.
Thanks.

 

[Cross City]

Basically yes, although I’d replace “very specialist” and “niche” with “beneficial” and “useful”.

Who would fill jobs that it's blatantly obvious Brits can't/don't/won't do? You can't force people into certain sectors.

 

[brad465]

According to the report on the BBC, he is unlikely to win, as the decision to advertise elsewhere is seen to be a protected speech under the first amendment.

Elon Musk sues Unilever and Mars over X advertising 'boycott'

The social media site claims the firms unfairly deprived it of billions of dollars of advertising revenue.

www.bbc.co.uk

Meanwhile, back here in the UK, Tommy Robinson is at it again....

Suffolk Police squash online Brantham murder case misinformation

Online users falsely claim that two people held in connection with the Brantham attack are Somali.

www.bbc.co.uk

The guy really is an idiot.

If social media misinformation is investigated criminally for inciting violence he'll be in serious trouble; he's already on the run for contempt of court. I suspect the main reasons he's not been arrested abroad yet is if they arrest him now this might fan the flames of the unrest. He was in Cyprus but apparently he's fled there now (ironically he's technically an asylum seeker).

 

[Busaholic]

The guy really is an idiot.

I disagree with your assessment. He is far from idiotic, that being the problem. He totally knows what he's doing and what he and his mob are intent on achieving, and he's been treated with kid gloves so far by the legal system in the UK, leading to the ridiculous decision to give him unconditional bail and a 'stayed' arrest warrant last week. That meant he was free to board a ferry at Dover and use his Irish passport to enjoy the freedom of roaming the EU on a 'holiday' that seems to involve spewing his fascist claptrap on his website after a day on the beach, or whatever.

 

[Strathclyder]

I disagree with your assessment. He is far from idiotic, that being the problem. He totally knows what he's doing and what he and his mob are intent on achieving, and he's been treated with kid gloves so far by the legal system in the UK, leading to the ridiculous decision to give him unconditional bail and a 'stayed' arrest warrant last week. That meant he was free to board a ferry at Dover and use his Irish passport to enjoy the freedom of roaming the EU on a 'holiday' that seems to involve spewing his fascist claptrap on his website after a day on the beach, or whatever.

He ain't a idiot. He and all who follow him are cowards; he only started spreading the claptrap about the Stirling stabbing and Ms. Rose's tragic death after he fled the country.

It has to be asked again cos it just beggars all rational thought, why the hell wasn't his passport revoked as a condition of his bail? He asks the question knowing full well what the answer is likely to be.

 

[jon0844]

Some decent sentences being handed down. Always nice to see actions having consequences!

GB News got quite a few viewers outraged when they set the on screen graphic to say 20 and 30 years, not months. I don't know how they corrected this and if they made an apology, but viewers were outraged at the harshness as they took the text as gospel without checking. How ironic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

He ain't a idiot. He and all who follow him are cowards; he only started spreading the claptrap about the Stirling stabbing and Ms. Rose's tragic death after he fled the country.

It has to be asked again cos it just beggars all rational thought, why the hell wasn't his passport revoked as a condition of his bail? He asks the question knowing full well what the answer is likely to be.

He has dual nationality. Can he be made to hand over both?

 

[J-2739]

That's an extremely stupid idea for the simple reason that this forum ranks quite highly on search engines; put your curiosity on hold.

My curiosity has been satisfied, sadly.

 

[Busaholic]

He ain't a idiot. He and all who follow him are cowards; he only started spreading the claptrap about the Stirling stabbing and Ms. Rose's tragic death after he fled the country.

It has to be asked again cos it just beggars all rational thought, why the hell wasn't his passport revoked as a condition of his bail? He asks the question knowing full well what the answer is likely to be.

I'm unsure as to what sanctions are available to a court with regard to foreign passports: in the case of a UK passport then an order to surrender it could have been made, short of revoking it.

 

[Strathclyder]

He has dual nationality. Can he be made to have over both?

I'm not a legal expert by any means, thus I can't correctly answer that question. I'm in the same boat as @Busaholic; am not sure what, if anything, the UK courts can do with respect to foreign passports in cases like this. UK-issued passports are a different matter obviously (that is, if he still has one).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

If social media misinformation is investigated criminally for inciting violence he'll be in serious trouble; he's already on the run for contempt of court. I suspect the main reasons he's not been arrested abroad yet is if they arrest him now this might fan the flames of the unrest. He was in Cyprus but apparently he's fled there now (ironically he's technically an asylum seeker).

Fingers crossed that's being looked into. In Tommy-Ten-Names' case, it would be just another box ticked on his 'Crimes Committed' bingo card.

 

[TheGuy77]

How many arrests do you lot reckon will be made in total?

 

[Horizon22]

You are entitled to protest a policy and, indeed, Government that you do not like. You are entitled to argue and campaign for policies to be changed or new policies to be introduced. You are entitled to raise awareness of issues that concern you and other people. You are entitled to do all these things individually or in groups.

You are not entitled to commit arson. You are not entitled to burn out a Citizens Advice Bureau. You are not entitled to attempt set fire to a hotel housing asylum seekers. You are not entitled to beat up people on the basis of their skin colour. You are not entitled to roam the streets smashing cars up and setting them on fire. You are not entitled to walk down a street smashing every window on every house. You are not entitled to fight with the police injuring dozens of them. You are not entitled to terrify and scare members of an ethnic minority just because of the colour of their skin or their religion. These are not a legitimate forms of protest. They not a legitimate way of exercising a political voice. They are not a legitimate way of seeking to effect political change.

Not to mention we had a General Election only a month ago. A perfect opportunity to have your say. And I would hedge a bet most of people didn't vote (or are even registered).

 

[jon0844]

How many arrests do you lot reckon will be made in total?

I expect it will top 1,000 easily. And if they go after people who just stirred things up on social media, it could go way higher still.

Like the wife of a Tory councillor who has been arrested for a Tweet, but is apparently not a racist because she looks after some Somalian and Bangladeshi kids. Who knows, maybe she even knows a black person?

Wife of Tory Northamptonshire councillor arrested for racial hatred

Lucy Connolly is being questioned over a post calling for hotels with asylum seekers to be set on fire.

www.bbc.co.uk

The wife of a Conservative councillor has been arrested after she called for hotels with asylum seekers to be set on fire.

In a now deleted post on her X account, Lucy Connolly, from Northampton, wrote: “Mass deportation now, set fire to all the f****** hotels full of the b******* for all I care... If that makes me racist, so be it.”
The childminder has since apologised, and said she had acted on “false and malicious” information.
Northamptonshire Police said a 41-year-old woman had been arrested on suspicion of inciting racial hatred and remained in custody.
Mrs Connolly published the comments on her X account, formerly Twitter, hours after the fatal stabbing of three schoolgirls at a dance class in Southport on 29 July.
The incident prompted a slew of online misinformation, including false claims that the murder suspect, Axel Rudakubana, was a “Muslim immigrant”.

'Spur of the moment'​

Mrs Connolly is married to Tory councillor Raymond Connolly, vice chair of the adult social care committee at West Northamptonshire Council.
He told the BBC his wife made one “stupid, spur-of-the-moment tweet out of frustration and quickly deleted it”.
“She’s a good person and she’s not racist," he said.
"She’s got Somalian and Bangladeshi kids she looks after and she loves them like they’re her own”.
In a post on X on Tuesday evening, Mrs Connolly said: “I am someone who cares enormously about children and the similarity between those beautiful children who were so brutally attacked, and my own daughter, overwhelmed me with horror, but I should not have expressed that horror in the way that I did.
“This has been an invaluable lesson for me in realising how wrong and inaccurate things appearing on social media can be.”
In a post on its X account, the childcare listing site, Childcare.co.uk, said an Ofsted- registered childminder who had an advert on its platform had been suspended following information received about a highly inappropriate tweet.

I expect there's going to be a lot more of this, along with more posts from Elon Musk about how everyone should be free to say whatever they want on his platform.

Meanwhile, people are getting first-hand experience of FAFO and I'm here for it...