Fare Dodgers!

[1V53]

Oh come on "1V53" is entitled to his opinion, it is what he has experienced (your experience may be totally difference), and as long as "1V53" treats everyone equally in his job as a guard then that's fine. There's no need to get into an argument!

I can assure you I was never racist before I started this job, and I know some fantastic hardworking honest black and Asian people. I'm not tarring all with the same brush, but it is a shocking but true situation on that line.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm sure that he still gets many white fare evaders!

Are you sure? When he says things like this?:

I've worked a line from Chester to Birmingham for many years. The likes of Cheshire and Shropshire have relatively few black/Asian residents but it is amazing how many fare dodgers are black. It also amazes me how many sigh or huff and puff when asked for their ticket, something I don't see from white people very often.

That's saying few black residents, many black fare evaders. Which means the opposite is many white residents, few white fare evaders. He then goes on to say that blacks usually try not to pay, whereas whites do. I find that kind of attitude horrible.

 

[All Line Rover]

I can assure you I was never racist before I started this job, and I know some fantastic hardworking honest black and Asian people. I'm not tarring all with the same brush, but it is a shocking but true situation on that line.

I hope that you aren't racist now that you've started this job, either!

 

[Ticket Man]

I can assure you I was never racist before I started this job

Admitting you are racist now is just asking for a kicking on this thread. Whilst I'm sure your competent at your job, your public speaking and restraint skills leave a lot to be desired

 

[1V53]

I agree. 1V53's comments are complete rubbish and do not reflect in any way how my colleagues and myself approach revenue protection. Indeed the only part of my job involving ethnicity is when I take a description of an offender.

To 1V53, I'm not sure how long you have been in Revenue protection but when we spend our days publicly making decisions that customers do not like/agree with, the last thing our industry needs is to make such a public faux pas as the comment you have made.

How is it a 'faux pas' and how is it not factual when day after day, week after week, my colleagues and I find despite 5-10% of pax on that line are black but over half the fare evaders are black?

It is fact, and we know it's fact because we see it day after day. It's a talking point. It's shocking but true.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

What 1V53 is doing is this: black = criminal, white = fine. I personally find that disgusting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


1V53 is entitled to his opinion, but as long as it stays like that, and he does not pass his prejudices' off as fact.

So you're accusing someone of being racist?

I actually find that a more shocking statement than anything and all because of what I posted.

However, this seems to be the usual thing with you ralphchadkirk and quite frankly, I'm not surprised

Let me clear what I said up first for everyone.

I clearly said in my comment that I made AFRICAN-AMERICAN and I am not a racist as three people have made me out to be. I like to treat people as equal, I don't care if they are black, white, red, pink, yellow, green or any colour. Colour of skin shouldn't come into this no matter what because that is prejudice and racist.

I might have said it in a politically correct way but I have friends of African-American origin, I know people who work on the railways of that origin as well and I get along quite well with them and no one will tell me that I am being racist whatsoever

 

[Ferret]

It's all a bit of a non-argument really - would you treat a black man without a ticket any different to a white man without a ticket? It's still the same procedure whoever you've got in front of you - name and address, verify it, and then choose UFN or TIR (or MG11 if you can). Simples!

 

[IanPooleTrains]

It's all a bit of a non-argument really - would you treat a black man without a ticket any different to a white man without a ticket?

I agree Ferret, I wouldn't treat anyone any differently whether they are of a different colour, different religion or however they are different

Everyone in the world should be treated the same no matter what

 

[Ferret]

Everyone in the world should be treated the same no matter what

Be equally evil to all of them

 

[seagull]

Interestingly, I will say that I never, EVER, had a white person say to me when they didn't have a ticket: "you're picking on me because I'm white" - and yet this sort of phrase, as well as "you're only asking me for my ticket cos I is black" is often heard from the black or asian ethnic groups. That's not racist as such, merely an observation which is noted by many conductors.

No-one is a fare dodger or 'criminal' until and unless they prove that they haven't and won't pay for a ticket when given the opportunity. Which I found was fairly random (ethnicity-wise) but more prevalent among the younger population, i.e aged 30 or less. Oops, I'm being ageist...

 

[1V53]

Are you sure? When he says things like this?:

That's saying few black residents, many black fare evaders. Which means the opposite is many white residents, few white fare evaders. He then goes on to say that blacks usually try not to pay, whereas whites do. I find that kind of attitude horrible.

It's not my attitude, it's the way things are on that line. A large proportion of the black and asian population are fare dodging scroats. I'm sure if it was 16-18 year old lads I wouldn't be being criticised but as soon as you mention a colour everyone gets very defensive and politically correct.

 

[WestCoast]

How is it a 'faux pas' and how is it not factual when day after day, week after week, my colleagues and I find despite 5-10% of pax on that line are black but over half the fare evaders are black?

It is fact, and we know it's fact because we see it day after day. It's a talking point. It's shocking but true.

If that is your experience, let it be heard. Making an observation is not racism. As long as no presumptions are made and all fare evaders are treated in the same way, regardless of their appearance and race - it's fine.

Don't forget that people on here live and work in very different parts of the country demographically, London, Birmingham and Manchester cannot be compared to the likes of rural Shropshire.

 

[Ferret]

Interestingly, I will say that I never, EVER, had a white person say to me when they didn't have a ticket: "you're picking on me because I'm white" - and yet this sort of phrase, as well as "you're only asking me for my ticket cos I is black" is often heard from the black or asian ethnic groups. That's not racist as such, merely an observation which is noted by many conductors.

I can't wait for the first one to try the 'you're only picking on me because I'm black'. After I've TIR'd them, I'll point out that now I have their name and address, they may wish to consult a very good lawyer skilled in the arts of defamation cases. Or of course, they could just retract what they've said............ And of course, a TIR is a statement of fact and a record of events, and guess what would be mentioned in the TIR....? One of the dumbest things somebody could possibly say when being questioned, as it'll be seen by a Magistrate as an aggravating factor and will lead to a larger fine. Duh!

 

[Ticket Man]

It is fact, and we know it's fact because we see it day after day. It's a talking point. It's shocking but true.

The content is neither here nor there. When your job involves you making unfavourable decisions as we do, people are waiting for you to fail.

Its more about making yourself bulletproof. look at the police and all the flak they take when dealing with difficult situations. They are most of the time deemed too soft by members of the public or vilified by the media for using excessive force.

Don't give people that ammo, it reflects badly on all of us

 

[1V53]

It's all a bit of a non-argument really - would you treat a black man without a ticket any different to a white man without a ticket? It's still the same procedure whoever you've got in front of you - name and address, verify it, and then choose UFN or TIR (or MG11 if you can). Simples!

Correct. Do I treat them differently? No. Do I note 'hey it's another black person' yes. Do I notice black people are a minority on this route? Yes.

From that I am accused of racism and not talking factually about the experiences!!!

Some of you guys are too busy trying to conform to perceived stereotypical conformist behaviours to wake up and accept this behaviour goes on.

And I'm so pleased someone else picked up on the "you are picking on me cos I am black" point because that to me is a black person incorrectly labelling all of white people as racist! But that apparently is ok?

 

[Asian Demon]

Well this has all definitely gone off topic to a point. As an RPO working at a busy London station, I can say that racism has no place in the job. The way I see it is this. If a person evades a fare and does nothing to try and rectify the situation at the earliest possible opportunity, they're guilty of fare evasion and/or fraudulent travel. End of. Their Race is irrelevant as is their age or anything else. All people from all walks of life try evading paying fares. May be a higher proportion in some communities or not. It doesn't matter. What matters is fare evaders are stopped and put in their place.

As for application of bylaws, I understand some people see them as unfair and even biased but the law is the law. Law is not defined by what is moral. Morality and law are two very different things and a law does not have to be moral, it only has to define what is right and what is wrong. It should also be noted that bylaws are strict liability offences in most cases. It's nothing to do with intention or recklessness (what is in the mind) as to whether someone intended to avoid paying a fare or not. The fact they did it is all that matters. That is enough to prove an offence.

 

[cuccir]

The quality of debate here has been pretty poor, and a number of tired arguments have been pulled out. In the UK the non-white, non-EU/American/Commonwealth population is poorer and more disadvantaged than the majority. As a result, they are statistically more likely to commit crimes. Equally, however, they are statistically more likely to be suspected of crime, and statistically more likley to be suspected than their white counterparts of the same class. Whilst fare dodging as a crime doesn't map as closely to economic and social status as some other crimes, there is still a statistical link.

The point is that a mixture of statistical reasoning and cultural basis, at times appearing racist, is going on. Anyone who says that they are never prejudiced is lying. We all pre-judge people, to a greater or lesser extent. the problem comes where these prejudices lead to different treatment of people eg performing more stringent ticket checks on black people, or believing the excuses of an elderly white woman who has forgotten a senior railcard more readily than a black teenager who has forgotten a YP, purely through demographic profiling

 

[Sapphire Blue]

So you're accusing someone of being racist?

I actually find that a more shocking statement than anything and all because of what I posted.

However, this seems to be the usual thing with you ralphchadkirk and quite frankly, I'm not surprised

Let me clear what I said up first for everyone.

I clearly said in my comment that I made AFRICAN-AMERICAN and I am not a racist as three people have made me out to be. I like to treat people as equal, I don't care if they are black, white, red, pink, yellow, green or any colour. Colour of skin shouldn't come into this no matter what because that is prejudice and racist.

I might have said it in a politically correct way but I have friends of African-American origin, I know people who work on the railways of that origin as well and I get along quite well with them and no one will tell me that I am being racist whatsoever

The very use of the term African-American shows up your ignorance as well as your prejudice.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

The very use of the term African-American shows up your ignorance as well as your prejudice.

How? Care to elaborate?

 

[yorkie]

How? Care to elaborate?

Well, how did you know that they are citizens/residents of the USA?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I never said at all they were American!

African-American = black.

Would you rather I dropped a P word and then get in crap for that?

 

[Chapeltom]

I didn't find IPTs comment at all in anyway offensive. I'd object to it being called prejudice. A lot of people on this thread have seemingly gone on the moral high ground.

1V53s comments were torn to shreds, its now almost a crime to observe something in the course of your job. I work in a small restaurant and find the majority of the customers who are abusive, complain and refuse to pay are middle class, white people who think they are smart, feel free to tear me to shreds. And I'm sorry but to pull the poster apart like that wasn't very nice, to brand posters racist is also pretty poor.

As for the original topic, which many posters have avoided for a few pages. I live in the North, I travel into Manchester a lot and very rarely see many fare dodging incidents, but its Northern Rail land and a lot of people board at unstaffed stations so its less common. I've seen once in 2 years travelling around, done possibly 7500 miles and seen 1 person given a UPFN and that's it.

Dodging a fare can be very different to "not paying a fare" as for the latter you can board at an unstaffed station, leave at an unstaffed station and not pay it. To this physically jump a barrier is definitely dodging it. Then you get chancers, who are "not paying a fare" a lot of chancers WILL pay if they have to. Most people in this country do not travel trying to deliberate evade paying rail fares and the vast majority not paying would probably pay if they are asked to.

I don't work in the railways but those are my opinions.

 

[CarterUSM]

African-American = black.

I suppose that is factually correct, but I find it unusual to describe black people in that manner. Who was it, Ice Cube?

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Well, how did you know that they are citizens/residents of the USA?

Thank you Yorkie.

Afro-Caribbean if you must
Afro-British better
Black-British please!

Maybe I should change my user name to Sapphire Black! But hell no, my team play in blue.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I didn't find IPTs comment at all in anyway offensive. I'd object to it being called prejudice. A lot of people on this thread have seemingly gone on the moral high ground.

Thank you Tom

As I have said before, I have friends who are of African-American descent for for people to say I am racist, prejudice or anything else for using a politically correct term is, quite frankly, disgusting. It also upsets me that some of you actually think like that but then again, not surprised that some people think like that

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I never said at all they were American!

African-American = black.

Would you rather I dropped a P word and then get in crap for that?

You just don't get it do you?

African-American may = black

but, here's the rub fella . . .

Black does not equal African-American

 

[sheff1]

What I am sometimes amazed at is the ability of some guards to remember which passengers have been checked and which haven't, even on very busy services on high capacity trains. I have watched people when the guard asks for "tickets from X", pretending to be asleep or gazing out the window with music on. The good thing is some guards always get those types and make them pay!

Reminds me of an incident when I was travelling Birmingham to Sheffield on a fairly crowded train. After Derby the conductor announced 'welcome to the 16 people who have joined this XXXX train to Leeds'. As Derby was being rebuilt at the time, with all manner of obstructions on the platform preventing any sort of clear view, I just thought he was having a laugh. He than came through chcking tickets from Derby.

After Chesterfield the same 'welcome to the 21 people etc ...'. This time though when he reached the end of the front coach he said - 'right, I have only checked 20 passengers from Chesterfield, 21 boarded so where is the person I have missed ?' When there was no response, he asked again - still no response. 'Right then, I will do a full ticket check' and off he went - halfway through the coach he came to a woman without a ticket who had sat tight -'we've found her' he announced.

I really don't know how he knew the number of passengers boarding and I have never encountered him again, so don't know if he does this regularly.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

You just don't get it do you?

And you just don't get it

I.....AM.....NOT.....A.....RACIST

 

[Sapphire Blue]

And you just don't get it

I.....AM.....NOT.....A.....RACIST

You missed the "but" . . . .




Well, I'd like to add to this if I may.
Another 'incident' yesterday was when I was on the train back from Euston and a couple of {African-American teens} got on the train at rugby to get to Nuneaton, both saw the inspector coming up and both said for everyone to hear 'I'm not paying for my ticket'


Just to bring you back to your original post and I have highlighted the words that may have started the "confusion".
If you had omitted them we would not be wasting our time now.
They were trying to fare dodge - but their age and ethnicity were irrelevant.
But you felt the need to bring this to the thread.
Not my bad!
__________________

 

[CarterUSM]

And you just don't get it

I.....AM.....NOT.....A.....RACIST

I don't think sapphire is saying that Iain. He is saying that African Americans are black, but not British.