Fare evader on Trip Advisor

[Deerfold]

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTo..._at_a_later_stop-London_England.html#40888290

Hello,


We purchased advance fares on the 8:58 from Alnmouth to KGX on 8 June. Now it looks like we will stay in Newcastle the night before rather than up the coast. Can we just get on the same train when it calls at Newcastle at 9:27 on 8 June?

Cut of the text above

I can read that - but not the reply that's caused all this discussion as that's now been removed (response number 28).

 

[DarloRich]

well if it has been removed................ (sorry!)

I think it was to do with someone re using a periodic retrun form Oxford to Paddington

 

[Ivo]

It was something like "I've been through open barriers at Paddington heading home [note his "home" is in the US - I somehow doubt he flies JFK to LHR every week!] and because it never takes my ticket on the return and it's a period return I just use the same ticket over and over. It's still valid and what I'm doing is perfectly fine."

Er, no it isn't.

 

[yorkie]

It's just an attention-seeking troll hijacking a thread, posting comments deliberately designed to wind people up. If they posted that here, it would get removed, and it is good to see Trip Advisor doing likewise. My advice is to ignore them & report their posts as inappropriate.

 

[LexyBoy]

There are folk out there who have gone further and written tips on their blogs. (NB: to anyone coming to this post out of context, links are provided for amusement value - anyone following the advice will find themselves in deep water when caught)

http://louderthanwar.com/how-to-successfully-bunk-a-train-by-kyle/

http://countrysidedweller.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/how-to-bunk-trains.html

The second example is especially amusing as the author gives their full name and occupation in the right hand column! They also seem very content to believe that the absolute worst that can happen onboard is they get sold a ticket...

 

[EM2]

Because I'm in a bad mood, I've just brought that second one to SWT's attention

 

[Flamingo]

There are folk out there who have gone further and written tips on their blogs. (NB: to anyone coming to this post out of context, links are provided for amusement value - anyone following the advice will find themselves in deep water when caught)

http://louderthanwar.com/how-to-successfully-bunk-a-train-by-kyle/

http://countrysidedweller.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/how-to-bunk-trains.html

The second example is especially amusing as the author gives their full name and occupation in the right hand column! They also seem very content to believe that the absolute worst that can happen onboard is they get sold a ticket...

Very good posts, and a few points about both links:

1. If either of them turned up on here with any of those stories (I missed my stop/I left my bag on another train) and "the nasty man made me buy a ticket / took my name", there would be posters by the dozen slagging off the Guard/RPI involved and advising the posters how to get their money back and an apology.

2. If as a guard I called BTP to any of those situations, they would take them at face value, and I would be in the wrong.

3. On a personal note, I have had people in all those situations, and they have not got away with it. They don't work on me all the time, but I can guarantee that if I'd had a more senior manager on the train with me they would, as they are so terrified of adverse publicity.

4. On a note as regards the "sleeping passenger" trick, I have been advised by a colleague who is a bit of an expert in these things, that if the passenger is "unrousable" by any other means, the guard is then under an obligation to treat them as an unconscious person who requires medical assistance (assess level of consciousness, place in the recovery position, call 999, etc.), and they can scream "assault" all they want, just so long as the guard (or whoever) gets someone to help and explains that they require assistance to give first aid to an unconscious casualty. Oh, I nearly forgot, assessing the casualties level of consciousness includes seeing if they "respond to painful stimuli", as they are not responding to noise stimuli. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVPU

 

[Clip]

4. On a note as regards the "sleeping passenger" trick, I have been advised by a colleague who is a bit of an expert in these things, that if the passenger is "unrousable" by any other means, the guard is then under an obligation to treat them as an unconscious person who requires medical assistance (assess level of consciousness, place in the recovery position, call 999, etc.), and they can scream "assault" all they want, just so long as the guard (or whoever) gets someone to help and explains that they require assistance to give first aid to an unconscious casualty. Oh, I nearly forgot, assessing the casualties level of consciousness includes seeing if they "respond to painful stimuli", as they are not responding to noise stimuli.

Yup heard of some others emplying this trick. Its a cracker too

 

[phil35]

I found this on another forum that I visit. What do you make of this, guys?

The station I go to normally has the barriers open, and the barriers are always open at the next stop too. I'm only ever going one stop, so I never buy a ticket. Done this many times since living round here.

Today the barriers were closed and there was this worker at the side overseeing people going through the barriers.

I was annoyed I couldn't get the train for free so I bought a railcard return even though I don't have a railcard. Cause its cheaper than a standard.

I went through a barrier and the worker asked to see my ticket, then asked to see my railcard. I pretended to look for it, but then said "ahh, its at home in my wallet mate, sorry."

I haven't lived here that long and I'm not great at understanding the peoples accents, and it was exacerbated by him being black too. I eventually understood he was saying I needed to buy another ticket. So I went back to the ticket office, instead of the machine, and said I accidentally bought the wrong ticket, could I pay the difference and have a standard. The woman seemed understanding so luckily I only had to pay an extra 60p (saving it doesn't seem worth the trouble at all now!) and I got a standard ticket.

When I went through again the worker asked to see my railcard again. I told him again that I don't have it on me and I'm not using a railcard ticket now anyway. But he said because I had tried to use one before he wanted to see my railcard, and he told me to go home and get my railcard to show him. I was like 'uhh no I have to get the train.'

He kept saying he should give me a £20 fine or have me taken to court, mumbling on about it. I was just OKing along, saying it was a misunderstanding, and eventually he let me through. He kept saying 'I hope you aren't lying to me, I hope you aren't lying to me.' (Regarding my having a railcard at home)

Currently planning my revenge, guy vexed me.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If it was me, I'd do him under the Fraud Act.

 

[Flamingo]

I found this on another forum that I visit. What do you make of this, guys?

I reckon that if the gateline had included an RPI, the same guy would have turned up on here very shortly afterwards, bleating on about buying the wrong ticket and how should he word his appeal...

 

[AlterEgo]

I love how the situation was 'exacerbated by him being black'. Internet gold.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think we should have a special thread dedicated to the tales of woe from these weary 'honest' travellers 'just trying to save a few pennies'. Not only will we get a good laugh at some of the complete numpty's (it would be even funnier if they really DID pitch up on here to get advice and all!) It could even prove useful by showing us staff some of the lastest tricks being adopted. I'd like to think I know at least most of them. But I'm always willing to learn!

 

[yorkie]

1. If either of them turned up on here with any of those stories (I missed my stop/I left my bag on another train) and "the nasty man made me buy a ticket / took my name", there would be posters by the dozen slagging off the Guard/RPI involved and advising the posters how to get their money back and an apology.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVPU

With those stories? We'd not tolerate that! We did have something not too dissimilar recently, but we pulled the thread after a few replies and the individual gave a moderator a torrent of abuse and he got banned. We simply will not tolerate anything like that, let alone assist them.

The people who clearly have done something wrong but regret it, are not told to get their money back and an apology; on the contrary, our advice is for them to apologise to the TOC and settle out of court.

 

[Flamingo]

With those stories? We'd not tolerate that! We did have something not too dissimilar recently, but we pulled the thread after a few replies and the individual gave a moderator a torrent of abuse and he got banned. We simply will not tolerate anything like that, let alone assist them.

The people who clearly have done something wrong but regret it, are not told to get their money back and an apology; on the contrary, our advice is for them to apologise to the TOC and settle out of court.

To be fair to you, I didn't mean the "official" fare advisor's, but there are more than you reply to those threads.

But apologies for not making myself clearer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we should have a special thread dedicated to the tales of woe from these weary 'honest' travellers 'just trying to save a few pennies'. Not only will we get a good laugh at some of the complete numpty's (it would be even funnier if they really DID pitch up on here to get advice and all!) It could even prove useful by showing us staff some of the lastest tricks being adopted. I'd like to think I know at least most of them. But I'm always willing to learn!

Nothing too new or original in any of those stories, the main reason they succeed is the view that "the customer is always right", and managements view that we have to accept any bullsh*t in the name of "customer service", allied with instructions to avoid confrontation and prevent delays at all costs.

Add it all together, and staff are on a hiding to nothing challenging any of these individuals. If the passenger complains, the result is an apology from Customer Services, regardless of the case (e.g. Northerns treatment of the tosser in the wheelchair last year) - if enough complaints come in about a guard "there's no smoke without fire" and the guard is at fault for doing their job properly.

If the staff do confront anybody and there is an outcome that involves the staff getting hurt, well, it's the member of staff's fault for not walking away. TOC's have a Conflict Avoidance policy (as opposed to a Conflict Management), and by doing anything that could potentially place themselves at risk (for example, asking a passenger who is sitting quiet for their ticket, or asking them for money as the ticket is invalid) a member of staff can be accused of being in breach of that policy.

Like all other police forces, BTP operate to targets - none of those targets are anything to do with ticket-less travel. This not only indicates the priority this has in the big scheme of things, but also gives an indication of the level of interest that will be shown by BTP when they are called. The only cases of ticket-less travel I have ever seen BTP take an interest in are ones where there was some other issue (either assault on BTP when they turned up, outstanding warrants, or possession of something they shouldn't have had). Otherwise, they have frequently point-blank refused to get involved.

A lot of TOC's view Revenue Protection as something that only causes complaints and delays, both of which they want to avoid as both of these give them black marks with Passenger Focus and the DFT. They would rather pass up the revenue (and avoid the extra costs of collecting it) than have to deal with the consequences of attempting to ensure all passengers pay the correct fare for the journey being made.

 

[Skymonster]

I admit that on maybe a couple occasions in the past I've used the return portion of a FOR more than once... In the good old bad old MML days (I'm talking early post privatisation, not during MML's final days) when neither St.Pancras nor Nottingham were barriered, there were several occasions when my Used ticket wasn't marked. Usually there'd be a manual check at the head of the platform at St.Pancras, or staff onboard the train would mark the ticket, but sometimes neither would happen and I'd leave the station at Nottingham with an unmarked portion of a FOR ticket still in my possession. At the time, I was travelling at least weekly and often more than that, so the opportunity to use the return portion of that unmarked FOR again would have been (and once or twice was) all too easy - arguably an undetectable opportunity to save money that could be taken with impunity and without fear of comeback.

Whilst I'm very aware doing so was wrong, I also have a view that any company has a duty of care in respect of protecting its income, and I don't have that much sympathy for the company in the circumstances I've outlined above. Again let me emphasise I never attempted to evade or avoid ticket checks, but rather on a couple of occasions I took advantage of an oversight or omission on the part of then train company's staff that resulted in me being able to reuse a ticket. If the company's staff - who always checked first tickets on board to ensure only first ticket holders were seated in first - were too stupid or lazy to draw a line through a ticket they were checking, then I used to think that maybe the company got all it deserved in terms of lost revenue. MML should in those early days have been using every opportunity and effort to cancel used tickets, especially some of the most expensive it issued.

The situation I described is almost impossible now - both stations are barriered and EMT staff are very diligent when it comes to cancelling used tickets during onboard checks. I can't remember ever even having an opportunity to consider doing the same since EMT came in. And besides, if such an opportunity did arise now, rather than attempt to reuse the ticket I think I'd send a "complaint" about the on-train staff to the company's management, explaining that those staff were potentially losing the company money by failing to cancel expensive tickets that could otherwise possibly be reused.

Last week I was in an upmarket restaurant in a group and they charged for seven drinks instead of the eight we'd consumed. Did I tell them about their mistake - no, sorry, I didn't! There was no attemp on our part to deliberately avoid paying for all we consumed, but the staff were too lazy to keep track of everything we'd ordered. Part of me says this reusing uncancelled tickets thing is similar. I guess that what I'm saying is that if the guy on TripAdvisor was reusing an used, uncancelled but otherwise valid (i.e.indate, on route, correct time restrictions, etc.) ticket, then yes I agree it's wrong - but more fool the TOC for not protecting its own revenue properly.

Andy

 

[RJ]

EMT's checks can be somewhat excessive - I go through the barriers at St Pancras, the TM usually checks tickets then it's not unknown for a new crew/set of RPIs to get on at Leicester stating that everyone on board needs to produce their tickets (again,) before again going through barriers at my destination.

Fair play to them for protecting their revenue.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Clearly Skymonster is a rather dishonest person.

 

[calc7]

There will be a cost-benefit analysis regarding any increase in revenue protection activities.

Though I do agree that not cancelling FOR/FOS/SOR/SOS tickets, especially on long-distance non-stop services *cough* Virgin *cough* is almost certainly a no-brainer.

 

[AlterEgo]

Last week I was in an upmarket restaurant in a group and they charged for seven drinks instead of the eight we'd consumed. Did I tell them about their mistake - no, sorry, I didn't! There was no attemp on our part to deliberately avoid paying for all we consumed, but the staff were too lazy to keep track of everything we'd ordered.

That's incredibly dishonest. I assume you wouldn't complain if you were stung for a full Anytime fare on the train after making an honest mistake with your ticket.

 

[4SRKT]

Clearly Skymonster is a rather dishonest person.

<Yawn> He's admitted that it was wrong and says he doesn't do it anymore. Do you really believe that most people don't do things like this given the opportunity? Whoever said the railway has a duty of care to protect its revenue was spot on. In some ways some TOCs might as well leave ten pound notes lying around all over the place.

 

[Flamingo]

EMT's checks can be somewhat excessive - I go through the barriers at St Pancras, the TM usually checks tickets then it's not unknown for a new crew/set of RPIs to get on at Leicester stating that everyone on board needs to produce their tickets (again,) before again going through barriers at my destination.

Fair play to them for protecting their revenue.

Either they are excessive or reasonable to protect their revenue.

Make your mind up.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

He's admitted that it was wrong and says he doesn't do it anymore. Do you really believe that most people don't do things like this given the opportunity? Whoever said the railway has a duty of care to protect its revenue was spot on. In some ways some TOCs might as well leave ten pound notes lying around all over the place.

I suggest you read the second paragraph of his post, beginning with the words "Last week" before you try and make snide remarks. And no, the railway does not have a duty of care to protect its revenue (I'd LOVE to see someone trying to prove that!). The customer has the duty not to commit crime.


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[AlterEgo]

Sometimes I feel like the only one who does correct shop staff when they undercharge me. It's all part of society actually functioning, instead of humans ruthlessly forging advantages for themselves. Anyway, I digress.

As ralphchadkirk says, the customer has a duty not to commit crime, regardless of how easy the crime may or may not be to commit.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As do I alterego. Unfortunately most people do not seem to be as honest.


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[stut]

<Yawn> He's admitted that it was wrong and says he doesn't do it anymore. Do you really believe that most people don't do things like this given the opportunity? Whoever said the railway has a duty of care to protect its revenue was spot on. In some ways some TOCs might as well leave ten pound notes lying around all over the place.

I WILL KILL YOU NOW IN BETA etc etc.

I agree to an extent. There comes a point at which laws are ignored, for better or worse, and one of the factors in this is enforcement. This could range from parking on the pavement to deliberate civil disobedience.

 

[Skymonster]

Clearly Skymonster is a rather dishonest person.

Let he who is without any sin whatsoever cast the first stone...

I'm not a fundamentally dishonest person actually, but I'm not always going to go that far out of my way to correct oversights on the part of organisations I do business with when doing so would cost me more money.

I would suggest that the vast majority of humans do something that's against the law/rules from time to time, be it not pointing out a drink missed off of a bill, reusing an uncancelled rail ticket, or as sited as an example above speeding (I am obsessive for example about not going 30/40mph limits and have never had points on my licence) or parking, dropping litter, taking a sick day when they're not really sick, doing something personal in work time, etc. For example - anytime someone speeds and doesn't get detected, should they go to police and say "hey, I did 40 in a 30 zone, can you give me three points on my licence please?" No, I don't think so. And will that person speed again? Probably. Or should we start a campaign to make sure cars cannot ever be driven at above the legal limit - technology could achieve that already, but it's not going to happen. Speeding has the potential to kill, not just cost money - I hate it, but people do it.

I said I had reused an uncancelled return portion of a rail ticket on one or two occasions many years ago. I also said I haven't done it since (no opportunity even if I wanted to, which I don't) and that I agree it's not the right thing to be doing. I also said that I could understand WHY someone else might do it if they could get away with it. Life's like that - if there's windows of opportunity, sometimes some people will take them whether we like it or not. The complete answer IMHO is not just to castigate those who take advantages of such opportunities, but to expect and require the organisations who create such opportunities and loopholes to close them down completely.

Andy

 

[Failed Unit]

As do I alterego. Unfortunately most people do not seem to be as honest.


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Most! A very sweeping generalisation.

However probably true, I never saw many people queuing at Lincoln Central wait to buy a ticket when the gaurd couldnt physically get down the train because of overcrowding (ct days). They took the view if the railway doesn't give them a chance to buy a ticket why should they. (same with replacement buses.) I did join the queue at Lincoln so when I wrote to CT they couldn't come back with the ticket sales don't show a problem nonsense!

I once did a return on a FOR between Edinburgh and London without it getting stamped or checked in either direction.

I think in general people are honest - it is just too easy for those that are not to get away with it, and no barriers don't help!

Other strange things is I once travelled for a week with an "expired" season ticket. Where the old one was in front of the new one, which was worrying if I was really going to scam the company it shows how easy it is to do.

 

[4SRKT]

I suggest you read the second paragraph of his post, beginning with the words "Last week" before you try and make snide remarks. And no, the railway does not have a duty of care to protect its revenue (I'd LOVE to see someone trying to prove that!). The customer has the duty not to commit crime.


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'Last week' he was in a restaurant, not on a train.

Do you think that the deal goes both ways or not? People frequently travel on tickets that are not cheapest for their journey, but you don't see anyone doling out negative excesses. TOCs are on the make, pure and simple, and if they weren't, then everyone would be travelling as cheaply as I do. It's hardly surprising that people take advantage of the odd bit of good fortune when they can. Why should anyone have any respect for organisations flagrantly on the make (or for laws that protect those organisations) unless they are compelled to do so?

I have no objection to compulsion, or to revenue protection (in the form of barriers or whatever), but it is naive to believe that (most?) people will go out of their way to hand over money to a TOC (or any other organisation) if it is not 100% necessary. It is a game of cat and mouse in effect, and always will be. And holier-than-thou condemnations on here are pretty revolting.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Where on earth did I mention a train in my first post? The answer is nowhere so where the first line of your post came from is beyond me. The fact he did it last week suggests that whilst he wouldn't defraud a rail company anymore he's still happy to defraud other companies.

You can continue trying to argue that wilfully avoiding part of the payment you know is necessary isn't dishonest but you will look a bit stupid doing it.

You're just grasping at straws to cover up the mistake that formed the premise of your argument.


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