Fare evader on Trip Advisor

[4SRKT]

Where on earth did I mention a train in my first post? The answer is nowhere so where the first line of your post came from is beyond me. The fact he did it last week suggests that whilst he wouldn't defraud a rail company anymore he's still happy to defraud other companies.

You can continue trying to argue that wilfully avoiding part of the payment you know is necessary isn't dishonest but you will look a bit stupid doing it.

You're just grasping at straws to cover up the mistake that formed the premise of your argument.


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I didn't say it wasn't dishonest. It's understandable that's all.

Did you consider the point of TOCs legal defrauding of customers? No, because as ever you support the TOCs whatever they do.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you actually read my posts, rather than writing some cheap shot, you will see there are multiple times where I have condemned some TOCs actions. No need to apologise though.

In any case customers have a duty not to defraud companies. Companies have a duty not to defraud customers. If you can actually show me some evidence where a TOC has been prosecuted for defrauding a customer then I am sure that I and many others would be more than pleased to read about it.


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[313103]

Now i remember quite a long time ago not long after i joined this forum, where a discussion on using the same ticket over and over again was mentioned. Now as far as these people were concerned it was OK because the company's staff did not cancel the ticket either by scoring it or punching it. Isn't that what Skymonster was doing and yet the self righteous on here are now having a go. Isn't that what quite a few rail enthusiasts use to do?

I believe the terminology in the rail enthusiast fraternity its called 'EFFING' the fare. I am sure many enthusiasts copped an engine or unit and also got it for haulage and or picture as a direct result of 'EFFING' the fare.

In my mind Kettle, Pot and Black spring to mind.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I have never, ever, agreed that it is ok to simply reuse an already used ticket, so please withdraw that unfounded accusation that was clearly directed at myself and alterego.


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[gswindale]

That's incredibly dishonest. I assume you wouldn't complain if you were stung for a full Anytime fare on the train after making an honest mistake with your ticket.

That is a different situation though.

Say I'd been in the restaurant and had put my card behind the bar for the drinks. A group of 7 or 8 of us then get totally hammered. When we leave, we ask for the bill expecting to be charged the correct amount. Are you expecting a group of completely drunk people to remember exactly what they've drunk? I would think that the onus would be on the restaurant to charge correctly and it would be their loss if not.

Similarly a few weeks ago we had been to a garden centre and purchased various items. It was only when we got home (20 min drive) that we discovered a couple of items had been caught up together and so we had not been charged for both. Not our fault and I'm certainly not going to go all the way back to rectify the mistake.

On topic the only time I've ever travelled beyond my intended destination was when I had a call shortly before arriving suggesting we meet up for a drink at the next stop (a barriered station). I explained the situation at the barriers and they let me through without fuss and no extra fare!

Now I'm guessing that somebody will say I should have located the guard, but would I have been able to do that & purchase a ticket in the 3 minutes between stops bearing in mind I had no cash and only my cards?

 

[87015]

Oh look, another holier-than-thou battle of self-rightousness. Shocker.

Ticketless travel levels is a commercial decision by the TOC - I believe the new Anglia franchise is the only one ever to have had it in the spec? - so if you think its a real problem bleat at the TOCs rather than on here! If you can use SOR/SVR vice seasons then clearly the TOC has not made it a priority, which is their choice and they do so knowing people will fare evade - but probably at less cost than trying to get every last penny.

 

[Failed Unit]

Getting off early, that is a penalty fare I am afraid.

 

[Skymonster]

The fact he did it last week suggests that whilst he wouldn't defraud a rail company anymore he's still happy to defraud other companies.

You can continue trying to argue that wilfully avoiding part of the payment you know is necessary isn't dishonest but you will look a bit stupid doing it.

I didn't defraud ANYONE last week! I was in a restaurant, and they provided me with a bill. I am under no obligation whatsoever to check how they've calculated the total on the bill, should I not wish to do so. I offered payment to cover the total amount of the bill, they accepted that form of payment and took the amount they wanted to charge for the products and services they had provided to me. Both sides (customer and business) parted company amicably. End of story. If they didn't charge me enough by virtue of only including seven out of eight drinks we'd consumed on their bill, that's their problem. No one anywhere, and no court anywhere, is going to make a fraud case out of that.

Now, back to the railways. The situation is not identical but not disimilar either. Whilst I don't condone reusing a used but uncancelled railway ticket, I reitterate that a part of the problem is the TOC's staff or machines not taking appropriate steps to cancel used tickets. If they did this properly, the problem would not arise. Almost everyone exploits loopholes at sometime or other - be it railway tickets, bar bills, speeding, throwing a sicky, etc... They do it when they think, or know, that they have a high likelihood of getting away with it. For better or for worse, it's largely human nature.

As I said previously, let he who is totally innocent cast the stone - no used tickets, no "free" drinks, no speeding EVER, never thrown any litter anywhere, never taken time off when really fit to work, etc... Only the totally self righteous need apply, and there won't be many of them.

Andy

 

[4SRKT]

If you actually read my posts, rather than writing some cheap shot, you will see there are multiple times where I have condemned some TOCs actions. No need to apologise though.


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And if YOU actually read my posts you will see that I have not said that dishonesty is OK, just inevitable. Still, it's a lot easier to cherry pick the bits of another person's posts you find easiest to answer (actually to discredit the other without addressing the point), usually picking out some irrelevance or issue of semantics rather than the real point.

Example of a TOC defrauding customers? Northern's TVMs offer anytime day return tickets after 09:30, when there can be no situation when they can ever be needed over an off-peak. How many customers come along and buy one thinking that off-peak may not cover a journey home in the evening rush hour? No idea, but you can bet some do. They are very careful though NOT to sell off peak tickets before 09:30, even if the last train requiring an anytime ticket left at 08:30. Another case of the customer being defrauded. Northern haven't been prosecuted for this, but if being prosecuted is your definition of being guilty of fraud, then Skymonster has done nothing wrong because he wasn't prosecuted either.

 

[talltim]

your front door was open, so I came in and took some stuff. its your fault tho.

 

[Skymonster]

In any case customers have a duty not to defraud companies. Companies have a duty not to defraud customers

You know what Ralph...

A couple of weeks ago I travelled from Nottingham to Reading and back in first. By offering to sell me one return ticket for the journey, XC effectively wanted to charge me over £100 more than I needed to pay by splitting tickets at Derby, Birmingham and Banbury. Of course, XC won't offer me the much cheaper split tickets by default - I have to find all that out for myself and then go to the effort of buying four different tickets instead of one and then maybe have a difficult discussion with their guards if they don't think what I'm doing is legit.

So here's the kicker... I accept it's not fraud on XC's part, but I regard XC as having overcharged me for that same journey on several occasions in the past when they sold me one ticket, before I discovered this forum and the concept of split tickets. In all, I have probably given XC over £500 more than I need have done in the past year or so. I believe I shouldn't have to be that savvy, to have done the research - I believe I should have been offered the lowest combination of fares and tickets in the first place, and whilst its not fraud I believe it's sharp practice and morally dubious on XC's part not to offer split tickets when they're cheaper. But I wasn't and they don't. I haven't ever reused a ticket on XC, but I really wouldn't have much in the way of guilt and my concience might not necessarily stop me reusing an XC ticket should I ever get the opportunity to do so, given how much I regard XC as having overcharged me in the past.

Andy

 

[Failed Unit]

I once travelled from Palmers Green - Market Rasen on Christmas Eve

At Palmers Green I got a 5p permit as back then it was not a destination on the TVM. Arrived at Finsbury park, all the counters were closed so got on next train to Peterborough. 8 minute connection onto GNER service, not going to risk missing it as it is the last one with a connection so got on board. Gaurd was checking tickets but didn't get to coach E before Newark. Newark booking office was closed. Got on CT connection and gave gaurd the permit, he said it was my lucky day and sold me a Newark - Market Rasen single.

What should I have done posted a cheque to WAGN saying i don't want a free ride. Upset everyone on the GNER by demanding the gaurd sold me a ticket? Or risked missing my train?

Did I feel guilty? No more annoyed about how hard it was to pay at the time!

 

[All Line Rover]

Let's not go on about whether TOC's "defraud" customers through high prices. It's not relevant to this thread.

With regard to Skymonster's original post, an issue with the railways is that they are providing a, sort of, "invisible" service. That seat is still going to get carted around whether you sit in it or not, so unless you're travelling First Class it's hard to see what you're costing the railways by sitting in that seat. (Yes, I know there are many costs. Insurance to name one. As well as the fact that if you get injured, you're unlikely to get compensated. But from Joe Public's perspective...)

This is different to a shop, where you are consuming a physical good. (Even though I do agree with Skymonster on the completely different issue of whether it's your responsibility to tell a shop/restaurant that they've undercharged you - I am of the opinion that it is not).

Going back on topic, I frequently travel from London to Manchester and on numerous occasions there is no ticket check. As a fare paying passenger, I find it frustrating that others could have (and probably have!) made the journey for free. Although I do not reuse tickets, there is always a feeling of "this ticket hasn't been used yet" unless it's stamped. How hard can it be for TOC's such as Virgin to stamp a ticket in all of two hours?

(I should point out that I'm not complaining, as if I'm travelling on a 100% valid but unusual ticket, I'm quite glad when it isn't checked ).

 

[4SRKT]

You know what Ralph...

A couple of weeks ago I travelled from Nottingham to Reading and back in first. By offering to sell me one return ticket for the journey, XC effectively wanted to charge me over £100 more than I needed to pay by splitting tickets at Derby, Birmingham and Banbury. Of course, XC won't offer me the much cheaper split tickets by default - I have to find all that out for myself and then go to the effort of buying four different tickets instead of one and then maybe have a difficult discussion with their guards if they don't think what I'm doing is legit.

So here's the kicker... I accept it's not fraud on XC's part, but I regard XC as having overcharged me for that same journey on several occasions in the past when they sold me one ticket, before I discovered this forum and the concept of split tickets. In all, I have probably given XC over £500 more than I need have done in the past year or so. I believe I shouldn't have to be that savvy, to have done the research - I believe I should have been offered the lowest combination of fares and tickets in the first place, and whilst its not fraud I believe it's sharp practice and morally dubious on XC's part not to offer split tickets when they're cheaper. But I wasn't and they don't. I haven't ever reused a ticket on XC, but I really wouldn't have much in the way of guilt and my concience might not necessarily stop me reusing an XC ticket should I ever get the opportunity to do so, given how much I regard XC as having overcharged me in the past.

Andy

Most TOCs do what XC does, albeit rarely to the same extent.

 

[All Line Rover]

The solution to all of this would just be to get rid of open single and return tickets and, for all current SOR/FOR tickets, replace them with SDS/FDS tickets at half the price.

I find it amazing that a Crewe to Manchester Anytime Return, for example, is valid for FIVE DAYS on the outward leg and ONE MONTH (!) on the return leg. The opportunity for fraud is immense considering the extremely lax tickets checks on VT on this route. What's the point of such flexibility that the vast majority of passengers don't need? Who buys a ticket on Monday and then decides to travel on Wednesday?

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of the shop question, I work in the student union at uni and I certainly do not expect people to say anything if I charge them less than what I should have. I am very thankful to someone if they do point out a mistake, but I don't expect it. If I make a mistake, then that is my problem (a concept that seems to have disappeared in many peoples eyes).

Who buys a ticket on Monday and then decides to travel on Wednesday?

I have done so before.
Booked a ticket in advance (an anytime return ticket though) thinking I will be travelling on one day, but actually ended up travelling on the following day due to a change of plans.
Also such validity is very handy for breaks of journey (when travelling from uni to home, it allows me to stop off at my girlfriends for a day, and then continue home on the same ticket).

I know it isn't widely used, but I think getting rid of such flexibility would be unfair on those of us who do use the flexibility in the ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

The solution to all of this would just be to get rid of open single and return tickets and, for all current SOR/FOR tickets, replace them with SDS/FDS tickets at half the price.

I find it amazing that a Crewe to Manchester Anytime Return, for example, is valid for FIVE DAYS on the outward leg and ONE MONTH (!) on the return leg. The opportunity for fraud is immense considering the extremely lax tickets checks on VT on this route. What's the point of such flexibility that the vast majority of passengers don't need? Who buys a ticket on Monday and then decides to travel on Wednesday?

I have before. I know in the recent round of making fares more complicated (sorry simple) the did want to make open returns valid only on the day. This was rejected by people wanting to break journeys. Which I suspect is more common, I need to go to London and Birmingham from Manchester, the open return allows this.

 

[RJ]

I'm bemused by the sanctimonious attitude taken by the person who started this thread and fawning holier-than-thou posters who have proudly announced that they have forwarded the details on.

Didn't realise that alleged fare evader spotting was the "in" thing for rail enthusiasts these days.

 

[4SRKT]

I'm bemused by the sanctimonious attitude taken by the person who started this thread and fawning holier-than-thou posters who have proudly announced that they have forwarded the details on.

Didn't realise that alleged fare evader spotting was the "in" thing for rail enthusiasts these days.

RJ; is this really you?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There are a lot of posts to reply to, so bear with me...

I'm not a fundamentally dishonest person actually, but I'm not always going to go that far out of my way to correct oversights on the part of organisations I do business with when doing so would cost me more money.

So what you mean is that being honest would cost you money?

I would suggest that the vast majority of humans do something that's against the law/rules from time to time, be it not pointing out a drink missed off of a bill, reusing an uncancelled rail ticket, or as sited as an example above speeding (I am obsessive for example about not going 30/40mph limits and have never had points on my licence) or parking, dropping litter, taking a sick day when they're not really sick, doing something personal in work time, etc. For example - anytime someone speeds and doesn't get detected, should they go to police and say "hey, I did 40 in a 30 zone, can you give me three points on my licence please?" No, I don't think so.

Ah, argumentum ad populum. In any case, you have cleverly constructed a straw man. I have nowhere said people should ask for a specific punishment, yet admit where they are wrong. A more reliable example would be if a policeman asked how fast you were going, and you admit that you were going too fast.

And will that person speed again? Probably. Or should we start a campaign to make sure cars cannot ever be driven at above the legal limit - technology could achieve that already, but it's not going to happen. Speeding has the potential to kill, not just cost money - I hate it, but people do it.

Relevance?

I said I had reused an uncancelled return portion of a rail ticket on one or two occasions many years ago. I also said I haven't done it since (no opportunity even if I wanted to, which I don't) and that I agree it's not the right thing to be doing. I also said that I could understand WHY someone else might do it if they could get away with it. Life's like that - if there's windows of opportunity, sometimes some people will take them whether we like it or not. The complete answer IMHO is not just to castigate those who take advantages of such opportunities, but to expect and require the organisations who create such opportunities and loopholes to close them down completely.

The law requires people not to commit crime. If I commit a murder the fault lies with me, not the police who failed to catch me.

Most! A very sweeping generalisation.

However probably true, I never saw many people queuing at Lincoln Central wait to buy a ticket when the gaurd couldnt physically get down the train because of overcrowding (ct days). They took the view if the railway doesn't give them a chance to buy a ticket why should they. (same with replacement buses.) I did join the queue at Lincoln so when I wrote to CT they couldn't come back with the ticket sales don't show a problem nonsense!

I once did a return on a FOR between Edinburgh and London without it getting stamped or checked in either direction.

I think in general people are honest - it is just too easy for those that are not to get away with it, and no barriers don't help!

Other strange things is I once travelled for a week with an "expired" season ticket. Where the old one was in front of the new one, which was worrying if I was really going to scam the company it shows how easy it is to do.

Yes, I agree, it was a generalisation. My point in this thread is that just because something is *easy* to do does not make it right, or the fault of those who could make it more difficult.

That is a different situation though.

Say I'd been in the restaurant and had put my card behind the bar for the drinks. A group of 7 or 8 of us then get totally hammered. When we leave, we ask for the bill expecting to be charged the correct amount. Are you expecting a group of completely drunk people to remember exactly what they've drunk? I would think that the onus would be on the restaurant to charge correctly and it would be their loss if not.

Contractually, yes, it's their loss. Criminally (and without going into great detail) I don't think there would be a case to answer if you genuinely didn't know that you hadn't paid what was required of you.

I didn't defraud ANYONE last week! I was in a restaurant, and they provided me with a bill. I am under no obligation whatsoever to check how they've calculated the total on the bill, should I not wish to do so. I offered payment to cover the total amount of the bill, they accepted that form of payment and took the amount they wanted to charge for the products and services they had provided to me. Both sides (customer and business) parted company amicably. End of story. If they didn't charge me enough by virtue of only including seven out of eight drinks we'd consumed on their bill, that's their problem. No one anywhere, and no court anywhere, is going to make a fraud case out of that.

Have a look at R v Morris. He swapped the price tags on something, so he could pay less. The shop accepted it, offered the incorrect amount to pay, he paid it, and they parted amicably. Whether or not the shop accepted it is immaterial. Whether or not they parted company is immaterial. In fairness however, he was convicted of theft, something that you can't be convicted of if you eat, drink, or fill up a partly filled container of the same thing interestingly.

Now, back to the railways. The situation is not identical but not disimilar either. Whilst I don't condone reusing a used but uncancelled railway ticket, I reitterate that a part of the problem is the TOC's staff or machines not taking appropriate steps to cancel used tickets. If they did this properly, the problem would not arise. Almost everyone exploits loopholes at sometime or other - be it railway tickets, bar bills, speeding, throwing a sicky, etc... They do it when they think, or know, that they have a high likelihood of getting away with it. For better or for worse, it's largely human nature.

So if I leave my car unlocked then it's my problem, and nobody else's, if I get stolen from? It would be a stupid thing to do, admittedly, but I'm not responsible for the crime.

And if YOU actually read my posts you will see that I have not said that dishonesty is OK, just inevitable. Still, it's a lot easier to cherry pick the bits of another person's posts you find easiest to answer (actually to discredit the other without addressing the point), usually picking out some irrelevance or issue of semantics rather than the real point.

As another poster said: pot, kettle, black.

Example of a TOC defrauding customers? Northern's TVMs offer anytime day return tickets after 09:30, when there can be no situation when they can ever be needed over an off-peak. How many customers come along and buy one thinking that off-peak may not cover a journey home in the evening rush hour? No idea, but you can bet some do. They are very careful though NOT to sell off peak tickets before 09:30, even if the last train requiring an anytime ticket left at 08:30. Another case of the customer being defrauded. Northern haven't been prosecuted for this, but if being prosecuted is your definition of being guilty of fraud, then Skymonster has done nothing wrong because he wasn't prosecuted either.

I don't think they should not show the ticket, as people are entitled to buy what they want to buy, but I think TVMs could make it clear that a less expensive valid ticket is available, but simply because of the complex ticketing. I wouldn't expect Apple to make it clear to me that I could be buying a cheaper laptop as a student if I'm half way through ordering a more expensive one.

your front door was open, so I came in and took some stuff. its your fault tho.

Quite.

Let's not go on about whether TOC's "defraud" customers through high prices. It's not relevant to this thread.

Agreed.

With regard to Skymonster's original post, an issue with the railways is that they are providing a, sort of, "invisible" service. That seat is still going to get carted around whether you sit in it or not, so unless you're travelling First Class it's hard to see what you're costing the railways by sitting in that seat. (Yes, I know there are many costs. Insurance to name one. As well as the fact that if you get injured, you're unlikely to get compensated. But from Joe Public's perspective...)

Agreed.

This is different to a shop, where you are consuming a physical good. (Even though I do agree with Skymonster on the completely different issue of whether it's your responsibility to tell a shop/restaurant that they've undercharged you - I am of the opinion that it is not).

Whether or not you have a legal responsibility to do so, I would argue that there is a moral responsibility.

 

[jon0844]

What should I have done posted a cheque to WAGN saying i don't want a free ride. Upset everyone on the GNER by demanding the gaurd sold me a ticket? Or risked missing my train?

Did I feel guilty? No more annoyed about how hard it was to pay at the time!

If an authorised person chooses to let you off then that's totally different to simply walking out, smirking.

Consider it a bonus and not permission to do it every time. What changed from being willing to buy a ticket at the start, to deciding to not pay at the end?

Sure, I wouldn't go out of my way to spend ages trying to pay - but I'd do the very most I could. Sending a cheque to the TOC is not one of them.

Didn't realise that alleged fare evader spotting was the "in" thing for rail enthusiasts these days.

What you do is totally legal and I respect you for taking the time to find all the cheap methods to travel (and I'm sure a good deal of it is having the opportunity to get one over certain members of staff).

However, I've got no time for people who avoid paying - whether that's jumping the gates or re-using a ticket over and over again that isn't valid (even if the lack of marking/validation might have left it 'working').

And, I don't drop litter, knowingly park illegally or take days off claiming to be sick. I didn't realise that anyone would consider these normal or acceptable things to do. Oh, wait, look at society today - of course people think it's okay, and worse. That's why with the ever decreasing police numbers and sod all enforcement, we're in the state we're in.

Go to Japan one day. People there respect the law and show courtesy to others. Yes, there's crime - but it's low. Look for litter (even in the tourist areas) and it's simply not there. People have respect, and it seems to rub off on tourists (or perhaps the people that go there aren't the people who happily let their own doorstep become a state).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe I haven't read the thread right, but did someone claim that re-using a ticket is like a shop/restaurant/bar charging you less than the correct amount for some purchases?

If a shop under charges me, I see that as their problem to sort, if they overcharge, that is my problem to sort. In both cases it should be sorted at the time of purchase/payment.

Re-using a ticket is like ordering and paying for a drink, drinking it and then helping yourself to a refill.

 

[All Line Rover]

Maybe I haven't read the thread right, but did someone claim that re-using a ticket is like a shop/restaurant/bar charging you less than the correct amount for some purchases?

If a shop under charges me, I see that as their problem to sort, if they overcharge, that is my problem to sort. In both cases it should be sorted at the time of purchase/payment.

Re-using a ticket is like ordering and paying for a drink, drinking it and then helping yourself to a refill.

Err... yes, someone did say that. And I agree with your interpretation.

Twisting this restaurant thing a bit further, though... Is there a restaurant where customers can walk off without having to pay their bill? I can't think of one. If there was one I'd be slightly annoyed when paying! On the railways, many people can make a journey without paying. It's frustrating for those of us who do pay.

 

[Deerfold]

Twisting this restaurant thing a bit further, though... Is there a restaurant where customers can walk off without having to pay their bill?

I've been to a restaurant which made it very hard to pay. We had a lovely curry and asked for the bill. After another 2 requests and 40 minutes we'd not had one. I put my coat on and went up to the counter and asked for our bill. We did then get one - if we'd been waiting much longer after asking there I would have felt no guilt in walking out without paying. On the other hand I have pointed out in a shop when they've missed one of the items I'm buying.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Twisting this restaurant thing a bit further, though... Is there a restaurant where customers can walk off without having to pay their bill? I can't think of one. If there was one I'd be slightly annoyed when paying! On the railways, many people can make a journey without paying. It's frustrating for those of us who do pay.

To walk off without paying is the offence of making off without payment.

 

[bnm]

Go to Japan one day. People there respect the law and show courtesy to others. Yes, there's crime - but it's low.

Japan is in the top 10 of countries worldwide for recorded crime.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

If you place those figures against population size it shows Japan in a better light, but their crime rate per capita would then be (surprisingly) worse than Russia.

 

[Ivo]

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

Not something for us as a nation to be proud of

 

[jon0844]

Japan is in the top 10 of countries worldwide for recorded crime.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

If you place those figures against population size it shows Japan in a better light, but their crime rate per capita would then be (surprisingly) worse than Russia.

Does Russia record crime?!

I know Japan has crime, but how are these figures broken down into types of crime?

Seriously - go there and come back and say Japan isn't a whole different world. For one thing, to bring dishonour on the family stops a lot of petty crime - whereas here being done would be a badge of honour.

 

[RJ]

However, I've got no time for people who avoid paying - whether that's jumping the gates or re-using a ticket over and over again that isn't valid (even if the lack of marking/validation might have left it 'working').

What about people who use unheard of rovers, or tickets between two obscure stations hundreds of miles away from their area of validity, or otherwise bluffing/exploiting staff's ignorance to evade the due fare - do you despise them too?

 

[AndyLandy]

There's an interesting psychological issue underlying this one and it's something I see a great deal in my own job working with computers. The idea of implied rules vs. enforced rules.

If you lock down a computer system to restrict what your users can do, often, if they can work out how to circumvent your restrictions, they feel as if this is somehow "allowed", because they weren't prevented from doing it, irrespective of the actual written rules.

I can imagine re-use of a train ticket could be perceived in the same light by some. The other obvious equivalent is re-using un-franked stamps. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning it at all, merely observing what it is that might drive people to reach that conclusion.