Fare evasion - 7 days to respond please help

[Train9]

Hi there,

I was recently caught with a short fare ticket by South Western Railway and have since then received an email from them giving me an opportunity to share my side of story regarding the time I was caught and previous “suspicious” tickets that they have since looked into. They have attached a pre-court disclosure document outlining all the suspicious ticket they can see, and have said “If you respond truthfully, there may be an opportunity for an out-of-court settlement. It is essential to note that we do have additional evidence, including ticket tap data, refund data, and may apply for CCTV data, which may be presented if your case proceeds to court.”

I fully admit what I did was wrong and take full responsibility for my actions and I am extremely eager to resolve this out of court.

I am wondering if I should seek legal advice for this matter or if I should respond myself directly? If I respond myself directly how should I do so and what are the main the point to include?

I would of course stress my remorse and take full ownership of all offences and would be more than willing to pay any fines/associated costs.

How likely are south western to prosecute for these offences do you think?

Really appreciate your time in responding!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Train9. Welcome to the forum.

Be useful if you could provide some further info as per the below-linked thread...

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Many members will try to assist you, but please bear in mind the following: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations where you started & finished your journey; The stations where you changed trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also, if you can upload a copy of whatever (e-mail?) correspondence you've received, that would be particularly useful. Please be sure to redact any name, address, or case reference number details.

One other question. Was the short-faring incident a one-off, or is this something that has perhaps been done on many dozens of, or even hundreds of, previous times? Looks like the train company's investigation team reckon that it may perhaps have been more than just the once.

It should then be possible to determine whether, or not, you need to seek specialist legal representation.

 

[Train9]

@Train9. Welcome to the forum.

Be useful if you could provide some further info as per the below-linked thread...

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Many members will try to assist you, but please bear in mind the following: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations where you started & finished your journey; The stations where you changed trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also, if you can upload a copy of whatever (e-mail?) correspondence you've received, that would be particularly useful. Please be sure to redact any name, address, or case reference number details.

One other question. Was the short-faring incident a one-off, or is this something that has perhaps been done on many dozens of, or even hundreds of, previous times? Looks like the train company's investigation team reckon that it may perhaps have been more than just the once.

It should then be possible to determine whether, or not, you need to seek specialist legal representation.

Hi there,

I was caught one time but there has been 58 occurrences - two of these that they have flagged are form 3 years ago when I know I never committed this offence but since it was so long ago I don’t have any substantial evidence to disprove this.

The time I was caught u bought a ticket from Vauxhall to Waterloo but actually got on at west byfleet (the other occurrences are the same).

I was stopped when approaching the barriers - I don’t think for any particular reason I think it was just a random stop since a few other people were pulled at the same time - they checked my ticket and said they could see I didnt get on from Vauxhall and I was issued with an MG11 i believe.

I have now received the email below of which I have 7 days to respond (I’ve edited some parts for privacy):

“I hope this email finds you well.

I am writing to you today to provide you with an opportunity to explain your rail travel. We are committed to creating a transparent and fair process, and part of that is ensuring that you have all the information you need to make an informed decision.

I am currently investigating your case concerning your rail travel from Vauxhall to London Waterloo railway stations on XXX. You were approached and spoken to by a member of Revenue Protection staff at London Waterloo railway station. You presented a ticket from Vauxhall to London Waterloo railway stations and when questioned admitted travelling from West Byfleet railway station. Consequently, you were reported for prosecution as your ticket was not valid for your entire journey.

I have examined all of your Trainline ticket purchase history since 7th July 2021 and it appears that there are other journeys on the South Western Railway network where the evidence suggests your tickets were not valid for their entire journeys.

I have attached pre-court partial disclosure consisting of XXX which includes your Trainline ticket purchase history. I have highlighted all of the suspicious journeys in yellow and orange, and these are numbered in the first column. This provides you with an opportunity to give an accurate account for each journey, specifying the start and finish rail stations and whether the journey was a single or return. If you could complete columns O, P & R.

If you respond truthfully, there may be an opportunity for an out-of-court settlement. It is essential to note that we do have additional evidence, including ticket tap data, refund data, and may apply for CCTV data, which may be presented if your case proceeds to court.

I strongly advise against ignoring this communication and suggest seeking further independent legal advice. Assistance and guidance can be obtained from Citizens Advice here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk .

It is my hope that with your assistance that we can work towards a resolution without the need for the potential of your case proceeding to court and further legal action.

If you have any questions or concerns about any of this, please do not hesitate to reach out to me. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter and I look forward to your prompt response.”

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

If you co-operate with SWR then it's highly likely they will offer you an out of court settlement. Expect this to cost around £150 plus the cost of the fares avoided at full Anytime rate with no credit given for the tickets you purchased.

My view is there's no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. A solicitor won't come cheap - if SWR don't offer you a settlement then that's when I'd be engaging a solicitor.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

An undiscounted Anytime Day Single from West Byfleet to London Waterloo is currently £13.10 (won't have been quite as much before the recent fare increases) so if the 58 possible previous occurrences were only single journeys, the amount at stake (total unpaid fares) is ballpark £700 plus the three figure sum (~ £150) likely asked towards SWR's investigation and admin fees.

However, if the previous occurrences were all return journeys, then you could well get asked to pay 2 x the single fare for each return journey, so maybe £1400 plus the ~ £150 admin fee.

A not inconsiderable amount in total, and likely you'll be asked to settle the amount in one lump sum. Good luck!

 

[ikcdab]

You say you committed the offences apart from two of them.
The best advice is to fill in the spreadsheet accurately and truthfully. If you didn't commit the two offences then say so. If you didn't do it then they won't have evidence for those two.
If you do that truthfully then they will come back with an out of court settlement which will be far cheaper for you than going to court. This is a straightforward process so no need for a solicitor at this stage.

 

[SteveM70]

@Train9 the message from SWR you quote in your first post includes this sentence - "It is essential to note that we do have additional evidence, including ticket tap data, refund data, and may apply for CCTV data, which may be presented if your case proceeds to court"

Everything that's been discussed subsequently is about short ticketing, and there's been no mention of potentially fraudulent refund claims

Do you have any idea why they may have mentioned this?

 

[Sultan]

Whilst you must be truthful, the only 'tap data' they will have is (presumably) use of ticket exiting at Waterloo (I'm guessing you are on the slow stopping service from West Byfleet that stops at Vauxhall and not the semi-fast which doesn't). I don't believe CCTV is kept for that long (30-60 days) and would be very time-consuming for them to wade through each half-hourly service trying to spot you on the train before Vauxhall. Others will confirm if this is the case with CCTV.

But assuming that you provided an address, and it is in the West Byfleet area, unless you have a legitimate reason for having joined the train at Vauxhall and can explain the instances where you didn't 'tap in', it may be very difficult for you to dispute any of the journeys. Add in the fact that most people would not purchase a SWR ticket for this journey (currently £3.90?), instead using Oyster at £3.50 peak (£2.90 off peak).

Good luck

 

[Train9]

@Train9 the message from SWR you quote in your first post includes this sentence - "It is essential to note that we do have additional evidence, including ticket tap data, refund data, and may apply for CCTV data, which may be presented if your case proceeds to court"

Everything that's been discussed subsequently is about short ticketing, and there's been no mention of potentially fraudulent refund claims

Do you have any idea why they may have mentioned this?

There have been a couple of occasions where I have had to refund a ticket but there was nothing fraudulent about these activities. I believe when I did this I originally bought a short fare, but ended up not using it and refunding it and buying the correct ticket to replace that in the space of about 15 mins - in these cases the fraudulent tickets were never used (as in I never used these to get on the train at all or travel anywhere) and I bought a new full price ticket instead.

Thank you for everyone’s responses and supported, it’s all much appreciated!

I have drafted a response and was hoping to get feedback if possible?

As mentioned above I can’t really disprove the two from years ago, but I know I did not commit these however I wouldn’t want to try and make excuses when there is no real evidence to support it. So on that I’m unsure how I would even say that I did not commit those two.

Response:

Thank you for your email.

I would like to start off by expressing my sincerest apologies for my offences and the inconvenience that I have caused South Western Railway.

I completely acknowledge that I wrongfully bought the incorrect train ticket on the XXX, as well as the other occasions noted in the pre-court disclosure document which I take full responsibility for. I have reattached this document with the required information below.

Since the XXX I have learnt a great deal about the severity of this offence and have ensured that the correct ticket has been purchased for every journey since and I will continue to do so going forward. I will also be sharing what I have learnt with as many people as possible to help prevent further people committing the same offence.

I am extremely eager to reach an out-of-court settlement on this matter and am more than willing to repay South Western Railway the full price of all occurrences as well as any other associated or administrative costs.

I greatly appreciate your time and effort on this matter and look forward to receiving your response.


Any feedback/suggestions is welcomed! Thanks all in advance!

 

[WesternLancer]

There have been a couple of occasions where I have had to refund a ticket but there was nothing fraudulent about these activities. I believe when I did this I originally bought a short fare, but ended up not using it and refunding it and buying the correct ticket to replace that in the space of about 15 mins - in these cases the fraudulent tickets were never used (as in I never used these to get on the train at all or travel anywhere) and I bought a new full price ticket instead.

Thank you for everyone’s responses and supported, it’s all much appreciated!

I have drafted a response and was hoping to get feedback if possible?

As mentioned above I can’t really disprove the two from years ago, but I know I did not commit these however I wouldn’t want to try and make excuses when there is no real evidence to support it. So on that I’m unsure how I would even say that I did not commit those two.

Response:

Thank you for your email.

I would like to start off by expressing my sincerest apologies for my offences and the inconvenience that I have caused South Western Railway.

I completely acknowledge that I wrongfully bought the incorrect train ticket on the XXX, as well as the other occasions noted in the pre-court disclosure document which I take full responsibility for. I have reattached this document with the required information below.

Since the XXX I have learnt a great deal about the severity of this offence and have ensured that the correct ticket has been purchased for every journey since and I will continue to do so going forward. I will also be sharing what I have learnt with as many people as possible to help prevent further people committing the same offence.

I am extremely eager to reach an out-of-court settlement on this matter and am more than willing to repay South Western Railway the full price of all occurrences as well as any other associated or administrative costs.

I greatly appreciate your time and effort on this matter and look forward to receiving your response.


Any feedback/suggestions is welcomed! Thanks all in advance!

Your draft looks generally OK to me

Ref the 2 occasions you think you did not evade you would probably have to say along these lines:

Regarding travel on date x and date y that you have identified, I believe that I had valid tickets for the travel I undertook on those dates. Unfortunately I am unable to provide evidence to support that now as it was some time ago.

and leave it at that / see what they say. The point is that you are being asked ot be honest so that is all you can do. Not sure that it would kybosh your effort to get a settlement (which of course is your key objective and one you do not want to risk) so I'm not sure if worth mentioning that or not, but a statement like the one I suggest would presumably at least be honest.

 

[Train9]

Your draft looks generally OK to me

Ref the 2 occasions you think you did not evade you would probably have to say along these lines:

Regarding travel on date x and date y that you have identified, I believe that I had valid tickets for the travel I undertook on those dates. Unfortunately I am unable to provide evidence to support that now as it was some time ago.

and leave it at that / see what they say. The point is that you are being asked ot be honest so that is all you can do. Not sure that it would kybosh your effort to get a settlement (which of course is your key objective and one you do not want to risk) so I'm not sure if worth mentioning that or not, but a statement like the one I suggest would presumably at least be honest.

Thank you for your feedback. I’ll have a think whether or not I should add the part about the two I believe I did not commite, like you said I don’t want those two occasions to be the downfall of my case considering I have no proof to back up what I am saying.

Do you think it is worth adding anything extra on my situation/reasoning/who I am as a person? I can imagine they don’t want any excuses so my first thought is to leave it out and keep it concise

 

[Titfield]

Keep it short and simple is my advice because there are no extenuating circumstances that would make a difference in the course of action they take.

As has been said on other threads the staff reading the letter will simply wish to assess whether to offer the out of court settlement and to move on to the next case.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your feedback. I’ll have a think whether or not I should add the part about the two I believe I did not commite, like you said I don’t want those two occasions to be the downfall of my case considering I have no proof to back up what I am saying.

Do you think it is worth adding anything extra on my situation/reasoning/who I am as a person? I can imagine they don’t want any excuses so my first thought is to leave it out and keep it concise

Yes, give it eg 24 hours to think about if you are not up against the deadline, but do not miss the deadline.

Ref your circs that drove you to do this - I doubt mentioning it will make any difference really (I don't think you say what they are so I can't make much judgment) but unless it is pertinent I doubt it will have much impact - I'm not sure that evasion 58 times will have a pertinent reason - by pertinent I mean say some sort of issue or medical condition that means you failed to understand how to use a ticket machine properly or some such so you repeatedly bought the wrong ticket. I don't get the sense that sort of thing applies to you.

 

[sillyman55]

Question how long until you got the email from when the offence was committed? I’m in exactly the same position as you. Same stations too.

 

[Train9]

Question how long until you got the email from when the offence was committed? I’m in exactly the same position as you. Same stations too.

Oh really?!

There was about 2.5 months between getting caught and receiving the email. How long has it been for you?

 

[island]

Question how long until you got the email from when the offence was committed? I’m in exactly the same position as you. Same stations too.

Please can you stick to your own thread as it can get rapidly very confusing when multiple cases are discussed in the one post.

 

[sillyman55]

Oh really?!

There was about 2.5 months between getting caught and receiving the email. How long has it been for you?

It’s only been a week since I was caught. I have a number of past offences too.

 

[Train9]

@Hadders please could you look over my email draft and let me know if there is anything you would suggest changing/adding updating extra?

What are you thoughts on the two occasions from 3 years ago that I believe I did not commit? I can disprove what they’re saying but I do believe I didn’t not commit any offence on these occasions

It’s only been a week since I was caught. I have a number of past offences too.

Well good luck, I’ll make sure I post an update here not matter the outcome is!

Have you been caught previously or have you done it just not been caught?

 

[sillyman55]

@Hadders please could you look over my email draft and let me know if there is anything you would suggest changing/adding updating extra?

What are you thoughts on the two occasions from 3 years ago that I believe I did not commit? I can disprove what they’re saying but I do believe I didn’t not commit any offence on these occasions


Well good luck, I’ll make sure I post an update here not matter the outcome is!

Have you been caught previously or have you done it just not been caught?

Only been caught the one time. I’m not proud and really gutted in myself for even thinking it was ok to do it to be honest!